UK UK - Suzy Lamplugh, 25, Fulham, 28 Jul 1986 #2

[TimFisher1965]

No you misread me I asked where she thought she had lost them not were they found.

Its the same answer

 

[TimFisher1965]

Im wondering if you misread me I asked where she thought she had lost them not were they found.

It's the same place

 

[Cluesleuth]

It's the same place

Are you able to say exactly what she said and to who

 

[Terryb808]

yes we do not know, IF he didn't know her we can only guess as to what happened. It doesn't take sherlock Holmes to surmise that as she went from being stressed about her stuff to being upbeat then these things were important to her. If CV is telling the truth and her stuff was in the cellar maybe she had a panic attack or something. I am pretty sure she was heading there at lunchtime to get them back. Everything I have researched and discovered backs this up but unless the POW is searched or someone owns up we can only guess.

I don’t think we can doubt she intended to collect her things from the PoW.
But don’t you think it a little odd that you’d make her collect them from the cellar?
Maybe wait at the front door?
Or in the bar area?
But walk down into the cellar, this to me is suspicious on its own.
Having said that, this is DV’s theory isn’t it.

 

[TimFisher1965]

The Police said she left from a completely different road so why has that story changed?


Memory fades with time and it’s been over 3 decades.

I give up

 

[Pinkizzy]

Ignore her

 

[lee sumner]

poor shirley would have been trapped in her mini. JC would have seen the drivers door did not work, then trapped her when he got in beside her.

 

[Cluesleuth]

What’s odd is that SJL arrived for work on Monday and was in an upbeat mood. If she lost her things on Sunday night and was stressed about it, how can you be upbeat.
I’m guessing the upbeat part came after the bank informed her where her things were.
What was she stressed about, presumably not the chequebook or postcard, so it has to be the diary.
Just maybe she was stressed about loosing all the contact Details. No online backup then, big thing to loose everything.
So if this is the case and she went to the PoW first, where is CV’s motive?
Is it just money?

To be honest I dont think she knew she had lost the diary and chq until she got to work on Monday and went to look for them.
This would explain why SF described her as being in a good mood.
Think about it if she knew she had lost those things on Sunday night and where she had lost them as TM1965 now suggests surely she would have gone straight to that location Monday morning before coming into work to check and made enquiries with people and businesses/POW. Why would she travel all the way into work knowing you had lost your stuff at a location just around the corner from where you lived?
If you know youve lost something you first ask anyone that may have been with you that day to check they come across it then retrace your steps revisiting those places or phoning them.

The big question remains how did they get there.
Had she lost it or had it been taken from her without her knowing

 

[TimFisher1965]

To be honest I dont think she knew she had lost the diary and chq until she got to work on Monday and went to look for them.
This would explain why SF described her as being in a good mood.
Think about it if she knew she had lost those things on Sunday night and where she had lost them as TM1965 now suggests surely she would have gone straight to that location Monday morning before coming into work to check and made enquiries with people and businesses/POW. Why would she travel all the way into work knowing you had lost your stuff at a location just around the corner from where you lived?
If you know youve lost something you first ask anyone that may have been with you that day to check they come across it then retrace your steps revisiting those places or phoning them.

The big question remains how did they get there.
Had she lost it or had it been taken from her without her knowing

She knew on Monday morning she had lost them not before, JC told me she was stressed about it (she and he were alone in the office for about 15 minutes before anyone else turned up) She found out that morning where they were. He was 100% CERTAIN she lost them the night before she did not know until Monday morning where they were but then she hatched a plan to get them back. NB the flatmate did not know about it so we can surmise she did not know when they saw each other in the morning before they left for their respective workplaces but she may or may not have known before leaving for work after NB left the flat maybe when getting her stuff together or when she got to work but when she arrived in the office and saw JC she was aware they were gone. She did not know at that point where they were so by then she had already arrived in Fulham and was not near the POW. Obviously if she knew before leaving for work she could have tried the POW but she did not know then that's where they were. I think its obvious she thought they were most likely at the POW which suggests very strongly that she found out AFTER getting to Sturgis. I do know how she found out where they were because JC told me.

She saw JC before SF and we can probably work out that when she saw JC she was stressed but then when she spoke to SF the matter has been resolved hence the mood change. SF does recall something about lost possessions but as she does not recall SL being upset or worried about it by then it must have been sorted.

 

[Terryb808]

She knew on Monday morning she had lost them not before, JC told me she was stressed about it (she and he were alone in the office for about 15 minutes before anyone else turned up) She found out that morning where they were. He was 100% CERTAIN she lost them the night before she did not know until Monday morning where they were but then she hatched a plan to get them back. NB the flatmate did not know about it so we can surmise she did not know when they saw each other in the morning before they left for their respective workplaces but she may or may not have known before leaving for work after NB left the flat maybe when getting her stuff together or when she got to work but when she arrived in the office and saw JC she was aware they were gone. She did not know at that point where they were so by then she had already arrived in Fulham and was not near the POW. Obviously if she knew before leaving for work she could have tried the POW but she did not know then that's where they were. I think its obvious she thought they were most likely at the POW which suggests very strongly that she found out AFTER getting to Sturgis. I do know how she found out where they were because JC told me.

She saw JC before SF and we can probably work out that when she saw JC she was stressed but then when she spoke to SF the matter has been resolved hence the mood change. SF does recall something about lost possessions but as she does not recall SL being upset or worried about it by then it must have been sorted.

What is frustrating is that given this has all come out now, why were the police not told back then?
Or does JC confirm he told the police, that’s how they knew about the diary etc, but they chose to ignore it and follow the mystical Mr Kipper.
Am I on my own in thinking this is total incompetence?

 

[Cluesleuth]

I would just like to ask and if anyone knows which takeway CV was going to that Sunday night. This is extremely important so please only answer if you are sure which one.

 

[TimFisher1965]

What is frustrating is that given this has all come out now, why were the police not told back then?
Or does JC confirm he told the police, that’s how they knew about the diary etc, but they chose to ignore it and follow the mystical Mr Kipper.
Am I on my own in thinking this is total incompetence?

I don't know but I could ask about when the police interviewed the staff etc etc BUT it sounds like to me that the police from day two (Tuesday) assumed that the line of enquiry was Kipper/Shorrolds and interviewing the staff appeared to be almost an afterthought like it didn't matter. They all seemed to suggest that SL took the keys and the details and went to a viewing like normal. Nobody seemed to ask the right questions? Not defending the police but the line seemed to be she went to a viewing and the name was not on a card so the person was dodgy and stalked SL and engineered the kidnap and murder. Things like the keys, possessions etc seemed not urgent or even noticed. If the police had got a log of all the calls in and out of the office from Friday to Monday end of day they could have constructed a reasonable timeline but they didn't even check them after the event (WHY?????) So if they assumed the Shorrolds/Kipper was the line then other stuff which we know is important was not even considered. The police assumed the sighting by Riglin was legit, Detective PJ said that the female sighting at Shorrolds was the last sighting of SL alive but didn't even acknowledge that the female was definitely SL. he held the key fob on crimewatch and said they were looking for the keys but did not ask Sturgis staff how many sets there were? they did not know that CV was a temporary landlord and that Monday 28th was his first day and that they should have interviewed the permanent landlord and at least known he was there Sunday and Monday morning, etc etc.

 

[Cluesleuth]

TF1965 I know JC wasnt in the office allday everyday but when he was can he remember anyone coming into the office that resembled The James Galway discription?

 

[TimFisher1965]

TF1965 I know JC wasnt in the office allday everyday but when he was can he remember anyone coming into the office that resembled The James Galway discription?

No I already asked this he said there were no visitors and no phone calls for SL that he knew of. he was out for 30 minutes so he saw most of the day and its events he remembers nothing weird

 

[Terryb808]

I don't know but I could ask about when the police interviewed the staff etc etc BUT it sounds like to me that the police from day two (Tuesday) assumed that the line of enquiry was Kipper/Shorrolds and interviewing the staff appeared to be almost an afterthought like it didn't matter. They all seemed to suggest that SL took the keys and the details and went to a viewing like normal. Nobody seemed to ask the right questions? Not defending the police but the line seemed to be she went to a viewing and the name was not on a card so the person was dodgy and stalked SL and engineered the kidnap and murder. Things like the keys, possessions etc seemed not urgent or even noticed. If the police had got a log of all the calls in and out of the office from Friday to Monday end of day they could have constructed a reasonable timeline but they didn't even check them after the event (WHY?????) So if they assumed the Shorrolds/Kipper was the line then other stuff which we know is important was not even considered. The police assumed the sighting by Riglin was legit, Detective PJ said that the female sighting at Shorrolds was the last sighting of SL alive but didn't even acknowledge that the female was definitely SL. he held the key fob on crimewatch and said they were looking for the keys but did not ask Sturgis staff how many sets there were? they did not know that CV was a temporary landlord and that Monday 28th was his first day and that they should have interviewed the permanent landlord and at least known he was there Sunday and Monday morning, etc etc.

One of the first things I did was to ignore everything, look at the events and produce a timeline, this (without any prior knowledge) went straight to the PoW.
Now after all this time and with the latest information (I assume DV had) this conclusion seems even more likely.
I honestly don’t think we have any deep rooted conspiracy, SJL either made to the PoW and didn’t leave, or was abducted when she got to her car.
I know many think you couldn’t do this at lunchtime in London and not have any witnesses, however, it is a possibility. How many people witness a slight altercation and promptly forget it, I’d say a fair number.

 

[TimFisher1965]

One of the first things I did was to ignore everything, look at the events and produce a timeline, this (without any prior knowledge) went straight to the PoW.
Now after all this time and with the latest information (I assume DV had) this conclusion seems even more likely.
I honestly don’t think we have any deep rooted conspiracy, SJL either made to the PoW and didn’t leave, or was abducted when she got to her car.
I know many think you couldn’t do this at lunchtime in London and not have any witnesses, however, it is a possibility. How many people witness a slight altercation and promptly forget it, I’d say a fair number.

I have no issue with this scenario but the car could have been parked in one of several roads so unless the abductor either followed her from the office to her car or happened to be in the road by luck I think the chances of this are unlikely.

 

[Terryb808]

I have no issue with this scenario but the car could have been parked in one of several roads so unless the abductor either followed her from the office to her car or happened to be in the road by luck I think the chances of this are unlikely.

JC would stalk his victims, follow them and pounce, I believe CBD outlined this in his book prime suspect.
It’s an interesting read based on letters from JC direct to CBD.

 

[TimFisher1965]

JC would stalk his victims, follow them and pounce, I believe CBD outlined this in his book prime suspect.
It’s an interesting read based on letters from JC direct to CBD.

I don't doubt JC was capable but I don't think he had anything to do with this crime

 

[Pinkizzy]

Susannah Clapp · Ventures

www.lrb.co.uk

Anita Brookner suggested the loss of SL's items on the Sunday night

Was SL drunk when she lost her items?

 

[Pinkizzy]

You can view Sturgis property listings in the Fulham Chronicle on the British Newspaper Archives site