UK UK - Suzy Lamplugh, 25, Fulham, 28 Jul 1986 #2

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  • #1,341
On this house keys / car keys point, I would hazard a guess that if the staff borrowed each other's cars for various work errands, it looks less likely that SJL kept her house and car keys all on the same bunch. If the car key went astray, she can't get into her flat either.

The police broke her door down to get into her flat, so they obviously didn't find the keys in her bag back in the office. So either her keys were all on one fob, or she took her front door keys with her intending to swing by home; which again points to her heading to the area of the PoW.
Can’t help but conclude we have all the clues as to where SJL intended to go when she left the office and SR was not one of them.
By taking her flat keys she intended to collect her tennis kit and maybe drop off the chequebook, diary & postcard.
She never made it to the flat, so the question is “did she get to the PoW?”
The only person who really knows the answer to this is CV & his partner.
If he’s telling the truth she was abducted prior to this, I know some say this isn’t possible.
But if you eliminate everything else this must have happened.
 
  • #1,342
Shirley Banks' car was indeed a rust bucket, HWL 507N, so 13 or 14 years old. IIRC it was worth about £100 or £125. Cannan repainted it blue himself; my guess would be that, rather than SLP386S being some veiled reference to SJL, he just changed each character randomly.

I struggle with why he would leave clues to other crimes (or for that matter use his supposed - actually his later - prison nickname as an alias). The type of clues Cannan left were things like carrying the tax disc around or leaving DNA samples with the victims of his rapes, i.e. they evidence his deep stupidity more than his cunning. He has never been charged with three murders anyway.

There were also MSM reports of a red Ford Sierra that allegedly JC had access to at the time (1986) that displayed a VRM of SLP386 (no suffix). It was allegedly tracked down to a scrap yard in London by police where forensics identified a DNA trace of SJL. So much has been written about this investigation by MSM, much of it inaccurate and poor reporting, so there are key elements that would be very relevant to us on WS, if corroborated fact, rather than column filler to sell papers.

I suspect that JC's narcissistic view of himself is that he is superior to everyone and certainly smarter than the police. Would he tease and play games with them, feed them red herrings (kippers) via third parties who he has mentioned 'something' to?

In amongst all this his self-assurance of being so 'great', whilst not being that smart ('sedimentary period, Macchu Pucchu' etc) he will have made errors that were not detected and may still be. His MO is not one that involves detailed planning but one of poor emotional control and taking significant risk of being identified/arrested, which was the case, even in the days before all the investigative tools of today.

The certainty with which the police pronounced JC as the key suspect surely indicates that there is credible information. I would not be surprised if SLP's personal diary was the source of this.

My thoughts are that the mystery man that SJL was involved with, who was pestering her, is identified as most likely being JC from the circumstantial evidence of his MO, locality, some eyewitness sightings (unreliable) but his identity is consolidated by the entries in SJL's personal diary.

SJL worked on Saturday 26th June 1986. Is it this the day that she wrote the Mr Kipper entry in the work diary ....it has been reported as such but......accurate? My feeling is that SJL answered a phone call from JC in the office that Saturday, with him wanting to meet her. She was busy for the rest of the weekend (Worthing on the Sunday) but wanted to stop seeing him, so arranged to meet on Monday around 12:45.....she wanted it done. Meeting JC and getting him off her back took priority over her 'mislaid' diary etc at the PoW, which only became apparent on the morning of late Sunday evening/Monday morning (27th/28th July).

The location of 37 Shorrolds Road in the diary may or may not be correct. There is some witness evidence that places a similar couple, bottle of champagne etc in the area....I always doubt this unless it's independently corroborated....people are so open to suggestion and wanting/needing to help!

I have a thought that the diary, cheque book and postcard may have been 'borrowed' from SJL at Worthing, by a 'third party', who was trying to identify her previous movements or who she had been meeting. Could they have been 'left' in a convenient location outside the PoW late on the Sunday evening after the customers were seen to leave, for the Landlord to find and seek to return them? This person has obviously been eliminated of any involvement in SJL's disappearance.

Anyway, if it was JC that SJL met on the Monday afternoon, I think that he may have already been forming a significant degree of resentment towards her, if he had sensed her lack of reciprocity and maybe antagonism towards him. Her ultimate rejection of him was the switch sealed her fate or maybe he had already decided the outcome!

JMO
 
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  • #1,343
Sturgis had 6 or 7 branches in the area and all of them used a white fiesta as the company car.
 
  • #1,344
SL losing her stuff in Worthing would make sense, who went windsurfing with her?
 
  • #1,345

Fulham Chronicle 24th July 1986
 
  • #1,346
Sturgis had 6 or 7 branches in the area and all of them used a white fiesta as the company car.
Not according to JC Office Junior he said SL had the only white fiesta
 
  • #1,347
  • #1,348
There were also MSM reports of a red Ford Sierra that allegedly JC had access to at the time (1986) that displayed a VRM of SLP386 (no suffix). It was allegedly tracked down to a scrap yard in London by police where forensics identified a DNA trace of SJL. So much has been written about this investigation by MSM, much of it inaccurate and poor reporting, so there are key elements that would be very relevant to us on WS, if corroborated fact, rather than column filler to sell papers.

I suspect that JC's narcissistic view of himself is that he is superior to everyone and certainly smarter than the police. Would he tease and play games with them, feed them red herrings (kippers) via third parties who he has mentioned 'something' to?

In amongst all this his self-assurance of being so 'great', whilst not being that smart ('sedimentary period, Macchu Pucchu' etc) he will have made errors that were not detected and may still be. His MO is not one that involves detailed planning but one of poor emotional control and taking significant risk of being identified/arrested, which was the case, even in the days before all the investigative tools of today.

The certainty with which the police pronounced JC as the k

My thoughts are that the mystery man that SJL was involved with, who was pestering her, is identified as most likely being JC from the circumstantial evidence of his MO, locality, some eyewitness sightings (unreliable) but his identity is consolidated by the entries in SJL's personal diary.

SJL worked on Saturday 26th June 1986. Is it this the day that she wrote the Mr Kipper entry in the work diary ....it has been reported as such but......accurate? My feeling is that SJL answered a phone call from JC in the office that Saturday, with him wanting to meet her. She was busy for the rest of the weekend (Worthing on the Sunday) but wanted to stop seeing him, so arranged to meet on Monday around 12:45.....she wanted it done. Meeting JC and getting him off her back took priority over her 'mislaid' diary etc at the PoW, which only became apparent on the morning of late Sunday evening/Monday morning (27th/28th July).

The location of 37 Shorrolds Road in the diary may or may not be correct. There is some witness evidence that places a similar couple, bottle of champagne etc in the area....I always doubt this unless it's independently corroborated....people are so open to suggestion and wanting/needing to help!

I have a thought that the diary, cheque book and postcard may have been 'borrowed' from SJL at Worthing, by a 'third party', who was trying to identify her previous movements or who she had been meeting. Could they have been 'left' in a convenient location outside the PoW late on the Sunday evening after the customers were seen to leave, for the Landlord to find and seek to return them? This person has obviously been eliminated of any involvement in SJL's disappearance.

Anyway, if it was JC that SJL met on the Monday afternoon, I think that he may have already been forming a significant degree of resentment towards her, if he had sensed her lack of reciprocity and maybe antagonism towards him. Her ultimate rejection of him was the switch sealed her fate or maybe he had already decided the outcome!

JM
The red Sierra story seems to have originated with Christopher Berry-Dee. I haven’t read his book - what do others on this forum think of his work?

The references to the supposed DNA traces in the media feel vague and I would personally prefer more corroboration - it’s all “a criminologist [Berry-Dee] says”, “trace DNA” (could mean any number of things) and one article notes that the CPS didn’t consider the “evidence” worth running with.
 
  • #1,349
There were also MSM reports of a red Ford Sierra that allegedly JC had access to at the time (1986) that displayed a VRM of SLP386 (no suffix). It was allegedly tracked down to a scrap yard in London by police where forensics identified a DNA trace of SJL. So much has been written about this investigation by MSM, much of it inaccurate and poor reporting, so there are key elements that would be very relevant to us on WS, if corroborated fact, rather than column filler to sell papers.

I suspect that JC's narcissistic view of himself is that he is superior to everyone and certainly smarter than the police. Would he tease and play games with them, feed them red herrings (kippers) via third parties who he has mentioned 'something' to?

In amongst all this his self-assurance of being so 'great', whilst not being that smart ('sedimentary period, Macchu Pucchu' etc) he will have made errors that were not detected and may still be. His MO is not one that involves detailed planning but one of poor emotional control and taking significant risk of being identified/arrested, which was the case, even in the days before all the investigative tools of today.

The certainty with which the police pronounced JC as the key suspect surely indicates that there is credible information. I would not be surprised if SLP's personal diary was the source of this.

My thoughts are that the mystery man that SJL was involved with, who was pestering her, is identified as most likely being JC from the circumstantial evidence of his MO, locality, some eyewitness sightings (unreliable) but his identity is consolidated by the entries in SJL's personal diary.

SJL worked on Saturday 26th June 1986. Is it this the day that she wrote the Mr Kipper entry in the work diary ....it has been reported as such but......accurate? My feeling is that SJL answered a phone call from JC in the office that Saturday, with him wanting to meet her. She was busy for the rest of the weekend (Worthing on the Sunday) but wanted to stop seeing him, so arranged to meet on Monday around 12:45.....she wanted it done. Meeting JC and getting him off her back took priority over her 'mislaid' diary etc at the PoW, which only became apparent on the morning of late Sunday evening/Monday morning (27th/28th July).

The location of 37 Shorrolds Road in the diary may or may not be correct. There is some witness evidence that places a similar couple, bottle of champagne etc in the area....I always doubt this unless it's independently corroborated....people are so open to suggestion and wanting/needing to help!

I have a thought that the diary, cheque book and postcard may have been 'borrowed' from SJL at Worthing, by a 'third party', who was trying to identify her previous movements or who she had been meeting. Could they have been 'left' in a convenient location outside the PoW late on the Sunday evening after the customers were seen to leave, for the Landlord to find and seek to return them? This person has obviously been eliminated of any involvement in SJL's disappearance.

Anyway, if it was JC that SJL met on the Monday afternoon, I think that he may have already been forming a significant degree of resentment towards her, if he had sensed her lack of reciprocity and maybe antagonism towards him. Her ultimate rejection of him was the switch sealed her fate or maybe he had already decided the outcome!

JMO
On this basis BW’s sighting would be correct, he persuaded her to take him back towards Hammersmith either willingly or under duress. BW said SJL didn’t look stressed, if she was at the time JC would have made sure she didn’t acknowledge BW.
The question has to be if the police had this much circumstantial evidences why did the CPS not take the case to court.
 
  • #1,350
IIRC what was found in the red Sierra was a 60% match to SJL, which would be a similar match to 20 million other people I.e. it was of very little value.

The fact remains that the plod have not placed JC in Fulham on that day or any other. The police case is based on his working in Acton, being a rapist and looking a bit like the artist sketch (but not like the other two e-fits, which are rarely mentioned). Well, a lot of people work in Acton, maybe 30 rapists had been released that year from the Scrubs, and the person who guided the description was never invited to pick out JC at an identity parade, so he looks like Mr Kipper only in the opinion of people who had not seen him.

It's not very persuasive, is it?
 
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  • #1,351
Dbl
 
  • #1,352
I thought there were 2 photofits - the drawing and the other one. Can you post the 3rd one?
 
  • #1,353
There were also MSM reports of a red Ford Sierra that allegedly JC had access to at the time (1986) that displayed a VRM of SLP386 (no suffix). It was allegedly tracked down to a scrap yard in London by police where forensics identified a DNA trace of SJL. So much has been written about this investigation by MSM, much of it inaccurate and poor reporting, so there are key elements that would be very relevant to us on WS, if corroborated fact, rather than column filler to sell papers.

I suspect that JC's narcissistic view of himself is that he is superior to everyone and certainly smarter than the police. Would he tease and play games with them, feed them red herrings (kippers) via third parties who he has mentioned 'something' to?

In amongst all this his self-assurance of being so 'great', whilst not being that smart ('sedimentary period, Macchu Pucchu' etc) he will have made errors that were not detected and may still be. His MO is not one that involves detailed planning but one of poor emotional control and taking significant risk of being identified/arrested, which was the case, even in the days before all the investigative tools of today.

The certainty with which the police pronounced JC as the key suspect surely indicates that there is credible information. I would not be surprised if SLP's personal diary was the source of this.

My thoughts are that the mystery man that SJL was involved with, who was pestering her, is identified as most likely being JC from the circumstantial evidence of his MO, locality, some eyewitness sightings (unreliable) but his identity is consolidated by the entries in SJL's personal diary.

SJL worked on Saturday 26th June 1986. Is it this the day that she wrote the Mr Kipper entry in the work diary ....it has been reported as such but......accurate? My feeling is that SJL answered a phone call from JC in the office that Saturday, with him wanting to meet her. She was busy for the rest of the weekend (Worthing on the Sunday) but wanted to stop seeing him, so arranged to meet on Monday around 12:45.....she wanted it done. Meeting JC and getting him off her back took priority over her 'mislaid' diary etc at the PoW, which only became apparent on the morning of late Sunday evening/Monday morning (27th/28th July).

The location of 37 Shorrolds Road in the diary may or may not be correct. There is some witness evidence that places a similar couple, bottle of champagne etc in the area....I always doubt this unless it's independently corroborated....people are so open to suggestion and wanting/needing to help!

I have a thought that the diary, cheque book and postcard may have been 'borrowed' from SJL at Worthing, by a 'third party', who was trying to identify her previous movements or who she had been meeting. Could they have been 'left' in a convenient location outside the PoW late on the Sunday evening after the customers were seen to leave, for the Landlord to find and seek to return them? This person has obviously been eliminated of any involvement in SJL's disappearance.

Anyway, if it was JC that SJL met on the Monday afternoon, I think that he may have already been forming a significant degree of resentment towards her, if he had sensed her lack of reciprocity and maybe antagonism towards him. Her ultimate rejection of him was the switch sealed her fate or maybe he had already decided the outcome!

JMO

Can I just ask you about the red ford sierra tracked down in a London scrapyard.
15.55 into video The detective talks about the Red Ford Sierra. The hairs found in the car related to the SC enquiry not the SJL.
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What also puzzles me re the key crimewatch programme screened Oct 1986 SC the presenter opened reconstruction of SJL's disappearand by making it clear that the case has become obscurred by rumour and gossip and goes on to say that the reconstruction is based entirely on what is know.
So 12 weeks into the investigation Detective C maintains she left the office with the keys to Shorrolds rd and a set of details and those are still missing.

17.40 into video
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wether she went to Shorrolds road or not they maintained she took the keys and details. I have seen no evidence whatsoever to todate to disprove that.
He also gives weight to BW sighting as she was the only person that knew SJL
personally I believe BW's and I think SJL was still alive at just after 2.30pm.

Did she take her diary and cheque to Worthing who knows it seems a busy weekend socialising girls have bags for different occassions evening bags for parties and everyday/work bag and perhaps a beach bag I would think she would have felt comfortable leaving her personal things at SH's parents house when she went to the birthdat party Sat night. Did she take them to the beach maybe maybe not depends what she felt necessary she was obviously going to spent a lot of time in the water windsurfing with others in the group.
Dont forget AB travelled back in the car to Putney with SJL and SH.
All these things are important if you think her disappearance was linked to a personal relationship with men.

But SJL had a lot going on and these things may be running alongside other things like business interests and have nothing at all to do with the end result.
Perhaps its a combination of the both.

MOO
 
  • #1,354
IIRC what was found in the red Sierra was a 60% match to SJL, which would be a similar match to 20 million other people I.e. it was of very little value.

The fact remains that the plod have not placed JC in Fulham on that day or any other. The police case is based on his working in Acton, being a rapist and looking a bit like the artist sketch (but not like the other two e-fits, which are rarely mentioned). Well, a lot of people work in Acton, maybe 30 rapists had been released that year from the Scrubs, and the person who guided the description was never invited to pick out JC at an identity parade, so he looks like Mr Kipper only in the opinion of people who had not seen him.

It's not very persuasive, is it?
Didn’t the DNA sample also match Sandra Court, who IMO had been in the car, a partial DNA Sample is no real use.
I accept that if JC murdered SJL then he would have used the that car to dispose of her body. To be realistic the forensic examination took place far too long after the event.
 
  • #1,355
The red Sierra story seems to have originated with Christopher Berry-Dee. I haven’t read his book - what do others on this forum think of his work?

The references to the supposed DNA traces in the media feel vague and I would personally prefer more corroboration - it’s all “a criminologist [Berry-Dee] says”, “trace DNA” (could mean any number of things) and one article notes that the CPS didn’t consider the “evidence” worth running with.
Yes, I have seen these comments attributed to CB-D, including one where he says SJL's 'trace DNA' definitely places her in the vehicle!

I suspect his basic understanding of the DNA forensic process is lacking. With the modern scientific ability to obtain DNA profiles from miniscule trace elements, when the body fluid source is unidentifiable, then there are explanations other than "this is definitely the perpetrator". Such an assertation should never stand up to "beyond reasonable doubt" under it's own weight.

There has been so much published in MSM, by 'criminologists', 'investigative journalists, with or without personal agendas, and rumours that have started who knows where? It has reached the point where uncorroborated, unattributable and confused information has been spread around so much that it is now taken for fact.....in the same way as dirty money is laundered through many stages to legitimise it!

I do have complete faith in the review by Detective Superintendent John Dickey. All possible suspects will have been investigated and ruled in or out. Eye witnesses statements will have been reviewed for veracity and to identify what elements are corroborated by other independent witnesses. I am sure that the police have significant circumstantial evidence that they cannot disclose at this time, but they took the extremely unusual step of naming JC as the only suspect.
 
  • #1,356
On this basis BW’s sighting would be correct, he persuaded her to take him back towards Hammersmith either willingly or under duress. BW said SJL didn’t look stressed, if she was at the time JC would have made sure she didn’t acknowledge BW.
The question has to be if the police had this much circumstantial evidences why did the CPS not take the case to court.
Because the CPS applied the full code test and their expert assessment was that the weight of evidence would not meet the first stage, as follows:

Is there enough evidence against the defendant?

When deciding whether there is enough evidence to charge, Crown Prosecutors must consider whether evidence can be used in court and is reliable and credible, and there is no other material that might affect the sufficiency of evidence. Crown Prosecutors must be satisfied there is enough evidence to provide a "realistic prospect of conviction" against each defendant.


My thoughts are that the way the initial publicity was managed by the police undermined the strength of witness evidence and the opportunities to gather further evidence.

These were the days before social media, so the police had the opportunity for far more control over the information that was in the public domain and they could manage the press for the benefit of the investigation. The initial actions in any major investigation/incident have a significant influence on the outcome.
 
  • #1,357
IIRC what was found in the red Sierra was a 60% match to SJL, which would be a similar match to 20 million other people I.e. it was of very little value.

The fact remains that the plod have not placed JC in Fulham on that day or any other. The police case is based on his working in Acton, being a rapist and looking a bit like the artist sketch (but not like the other two e-fits, which are rarely mentioned). Well, a lot of people work in Acton, maybe 30 rapists had been released that year from the Scrubs, and the person who guided the description was never invited to pick out JC at an identity parade, so he looks like Mr Kipper only in the opinion of people who had not seen him.

It's not very persuasive, is it?
I think the police have a good idea of JC's activities and MO in and around Hammersmith and Fulham. What they are struggling with is placing him with SJL at the material times and confirming any prior association, contact, stalking etc. All the evidence is circumstantial and that wasn't even enough to arrest him on suspicion of abduction, let alone seek to charge him!

Mistakes were made initially which may have comprised the veracity of witnesses and potentially the admissibility of their statements.

It is also important to remember that JC was not put forward as a possible suspect for some time. There are reports that it was ten weeks later when he was suspected of a rape in Reading but the initial SIO in the SJL investigation discounted him, for whatever reason....there was mention of him and DL not getting along too well?

Identification of suspects in various different scenarios is legislated for in the Police and Criminal Evidence Act, which lays down how police must operate with regard to stop and search, arrest, detention, interview and identification etc.

Any identification process in this investigation would have been far from straightforward. I do not believe that JC's name as a possible suspect was put forward until some weeks later, after he was identified as a suspect for a rape in Reading (Thames Valley Police Force). He was reportedly discounted by the SJL SIO. If he had been considered then, and his profile developed then he may well have featured in a Video ID with the most confident witness. Also bear in mind that the witness didn't know if it was SJL they saw with him and he wasn't identified at the scene of a crime.....so what would it prove? Only one witness knew SJL and she didn't get a look at the man she was with.

The problem with an identification process, particularly in such serious cases, when time has passed and the best witness isn't absolutely certain, is that it can totally undermine any strong evidence from other means further on down the line. If this is repeated and each witness in turn fails to identify JC then you are essentially going nowwhere as it will need to be disclosed to the defence and therefore being a defence counsel would never be so easy, even if the CPS had a rush of blood to the head and authorised the charges in the first place.

It is a minefield all round. It's never as easy as it says on the tin :rolleyes:
 
  • #1,358
Slightly off topic but is anyone watching the Murder in the Alps Screened on Channel 4 over the last 2 evenings the last episode is tonight. It features the murder of the Al Hilli family and a french cyclist a fascinating case.
 
  • #1,359
  • #1,360
I think the police have a good idea of JC's activities and MO in and around Hammersmith and Fulham. What they are struggling with is placing him with SJL at the material times and confirming any prior association, contact, stalking etc.

I am not sure I buy this. It assumes a degree of police diligence and effectiveness that we have not seen.

Chapter 66 of DV's book gives a good account of how JC came to be associated with this case. The SJL case was closed at the end of 1987 as having reached a dead end; the police had proved, unsurprisingly, unable to find a non-existent person. When JC was arrested in 88 or 89 for the murder of Shirley Banks, the News of the World got hold of his criminal history and published it, along with their speculation that he was Mr Kipper. DL and Pl then co-opted this speculation to demand that the SJL case be reopened. Both the Met and Somerset and Avon police dismissed JC as a suspect, as there was no evidence against him.

DL and PL spent the next ten years insisting that JC was SJL's killer. They eventually got the investigation reopened against a background climate - the Macpherson report etc - in which the police looked bad for not being sufficiently sensitive to bereaved families. The aim of the reopened inquiry wasn't to start from scratch but to find evidence against JC, and as there wasn't any the police went on a mission to manufacture some, by telling the public at every turn that JC was a suspect and soliciting sightings of him fourteen years after the event. They still ended up with nothing but at DL's behest they announced that JC did it.

That assertion alone tells you the police have no evidence. If they did, such a public statement would be grossly prejudicial to any trial of JC. The police made the statement because they'd failed to present the CPS with any evidence and because they knew there would never be any such trial to prejudice. But there are other ways in which the way they have pursued JC is revealing. The "lead" actually came from the Lamplughs, not from following evidence. Instead of gathering evidence and looking at what suspects it leads them to, they are doing it exactly backwards - they've decided JC did it and they're trying to find evidence against him, ignoring everything else. Where necessary they are manufacturing that evidence - by launching appeals for more 14 years later, for example, and treating obviously fabricated nonsense as having value. They're still on a fishing trip for a body, digging up random places suggested to them by wags. Some of these places - JC's mother's kitchen for example - effectively concede that JC was in fact in Sutton Coldfield at the time. At the end of all this, if they had any better case than the News of the World did 33 years ago, we'd know by now.

So I don't really buy that the police have anything we don't know about that they can't share. It looks likelier that they've got nothing.
 
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