UK UK - Suzy Lamplugh, 25, Fulham, 28 Jul 1986 #2

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  • #1,421
Do you think there may be a connection to the murder of Jill Dando, another baffling case which occurred in the near vicinity?

Good and interesting call, but I don't think there's any evidence of a connection.

From memory, there's school of thought that JD was 'executed' by a Serbian hit man / squad.

If such a similar murder happened here, it would be more likely to involve London criminality .....
 
  • #1,422
I sometimes think given the huge resources and mamoth investigation, that there may well be more to the SL disappearance than a simple 'JC is our man but we just can't pin it on him' senario ....

I accept that an individual or couple who had a identifiable motive to harm SL, could well be eliminated themselves because they had verifiable alibis for 29 July 1986.

But I wonder is the possibility of a 'hit man' / links to organised crime angle credible?

This would raise the possibilty of the SL murder being a small cog in a much wider machine. With a complex web of silence, informers, multiple crimes etc all coming in to play.
Is there any evidence for this theory? It is a pre-requisite otherwise any idea can be thrown into the hat. I think it is important to go with the evidence....it often pays dividends.
 
  • #1,423
Good and interesting call, but I don't think there's any evidence of a connection.

From memory, there's school of thought that JD was 'executed' by a Serbian hit man / squad.

If such a similar murder happened here, it would be more likely to involve London criminality .....
MSM have recently reported that JD could have been mistaken identity in a professional hit. It was certainly targeted murder and and professional in it's approach.
 
  • #1,424
Perhaps, as has been stated some posts back, these people were quickly eliminated by the police because they had an alibi. But, going by what AS reported in his book and other info in the public domain, they may well have had a motive to do harm to SL.

It's been well documented here - the silence, low profile and camera shyness. Very odd indeed considering ....

I think Tim has indicated that he's spoken recently to the female about this case, perhaps he can post his findings some time?

Again, given the 'professional' nature of SLs disappearance (no witnessed struggle, no body, etc), does this point to a 'professional' job, with someone engaged to efficiently remove SL without trace? And not the result of a serial stalker / rapist who clearly made mistakes?
Professional hits are remote from the victim and hirer. They don't start moving bodies around and increase the risk of being caught.

Quiet location at a point where subject is stationary, e.g. looking for key to open front door, a couple of shots and walk off normally, not drawing attention.

The accessibility and cost would most likely rule out a hirer unless involved in organised crime or with state sanction. It's somewhat fanciful methinks.
 
  • #1,425
You mean DV?

Ok I have been out since before 6am this morning and just got back and read the posts a little clarification required here I think.

I have spoken to both PSS (who cannot be named) and the office junior JC (everyone knows who he is right?) how many other people on here have actually tracked down and got anyone who was a first hand witness to speak?


It would be very interesting to hear (from any source), her personal take on events in 1986 ....


 
  • #1,426
She won’t talk about it
 
  • #1,427
The police followed a specific narrative (Shorrolds Rd) and any other possible sightings of SL were dimissed. I guess everything is on a database somewhere
Because they had three independent witnesses at the time who collectively placed a female matching the description of SJL in Shorrolds Road outside or near 37.

Two of these witnesses saw her in Shorrolds Road with a smartly dressed male etc. The key observation is that the male was seen carrying a bottle of what looked like champagne with ribbons on it.

This was the absolutely legitimate reason that the police were satisfied that SJL went to Shorrolds Road and was seen i/c with a male as described.

This would not have been the police's only line of enquiry but it was the best one with corroborated independent witness evidence.
 
  • #1,428
As I understand it, a fellow prisoner said JC had said JSL was at the home address.

Yep, he's playing the police. It is the style of Severe Anti-Social PD and NPD killers. It's all about control.

The police had no option. Finding SJL is probably the key. He had a confirmed link to the location (home address and laid patio) so police had to act when information came from another old lag.

I don't rate DW....I find him sensationalist and he doesn't always demonstrate a grasp of the facts of the case before making his judgements.

DW will only have had the information in the public domain. This is the problem, everyone bar the police, including WebSleuthers, only have a small part of the evidence. We rely on MSM reports that may well be fundamentally wrong or incorrect (I've seen many) to make an assessment. This is why I trust the police review in 2000 that JC is their man.
Okay, in order to be so sure that the police have so much evidence I take it you have also had access and that’s why you are so sure?
Correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t the JC PoW witness only come forward recently and by this I mean they didn’t back in 1986?
 
  • #1,429
  • #1,430
Because they had three independent witnesses at the time who collectively placed a female matching the description of SJL in Shorrolds Road outside or near 37.

Two of these witnesses saw her in Shorrolds Road with a smartly dressed male etc. The key observation is that the male was seen carrying a bottle of what looked like champagne with ribbons on it.

This was the absolutely legitimate reason that the police were satisfied that SJL went to Shorrolds Road and was seen i/c with a male as described.

This would not have been the police's only line of enquiry but it was the best one with corroborated independent witness evidence.
Looking at DV’s book and the events leading up to SJL leaving the office it appears she never went to or intended to go to Shorrolds Road.
On the basis that “JC did it” It’s more likely she actually went to Stevenage Road and the WJ sighting of her car parked where it was found was actually correct.
This holds as much water as the Shorrolds Road witnesses.
 
  • #1,431
Because they had three independent witnesses at the time who collectively placed a female matching the description of SJL in Shorrolds Road outside or near 37.

Two of these witnesses saw her in Shorrolds Road with a smartly dressed male etc. The key observation is that the male was seen carrying a bottle of what looked like champagne with ribbons on it.

This was the absolutely legitimate reason that the police were satisfied that SJL went to Shorrolds Road and was seen i/c with a male as described.

This would not have been the police's only line of enquiry but it was the best one with corroborated independent witness evidence.
DIdn't the police say they were looking for anyone who saw SL and Mr Kipper outside Shorrolds Road?
 
  • #1,432
Okay, in order to be so sure that the police have so much evidence I take it you have also had access and that’s why you are so sure?
Correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t the JC PoW witness only come forward recently and by this I mean they didn’t back in 1986?
No, of course I haven't had access to access to the investigation. I would not be discussing it if I had.

Whilst evidential opportunities were lost in the original investigation, there were three independently corroborated witness statements placing a female matching SJL in Shorrolds Road at the time of the appointment. Two independent witnesses state the woman was with a male, as described. That these were in Shorrold Road has to be taken with significant reliability and certainly in lieu of any other credible witness testimony.

Other independent witnesses have placed SJP's vehicle in Stevenage Road, so this can be considered reliable.

The acquaintance who said they recognised SJL driving in Fulham Palace Road is well intentioned but unreliable.

Any witnesses that came years later cannot be relied upon. If they have genuine cause to remember and can explain why they didn't come forward earlier then their account may be considered more credible.

Witness accounts are notoriously unreliable but when independent witnesses are confirming that someone matching a description was seen in a certain place at a certain time, then their value is greatly increased.

Finally, I have faith in the detective abilities of Jim Dickie in performing a thorough review and following any reasonable lines of enquiry that hat not been explored earlier.

If Jim Dickie had authorisation from the Met Police to say Cannan was the one and only suspect then I have complete confidence in that assessment.

Suspicions based on what it's and the smallest of inconsistencies in peoples statements and irritation with work colleagues are not reason to denounce what we do know and jumping to wild conclusions.

The bottom line is the police have carried out the investigation, they have access to all the evidence obtained, they have ruled people out and the only one waving red flag is JC. He just can't be nailed down because there is no body or crime scene, just a wealth of circumstantial evidence, which is not sufficient to reach the high bar for charge and ultimately conviction.

I think it is important for folk to navel gaze and ask why they they reject JC as the only suspect based on evidence but find other suspects where the evidence does not support it.

DV rejects evidence by wafting his hand and not giving a coherent argument as to why he rejects it. As I have said before the police are looking it a whole, the rest of us have about 10% of the pie.

Anyone questioning witnesses thirty-six years later expecting that their account will be reliable is sadly mistaken. The passage of time, external influences, the way memory works will all have a significant impact.

Looking at DV’s book and the events leading up to SJL leaving the office it appears she never went to or intended to go to Shorrolds Road.
On the basis that “JC did it” It’s more likely she actually went to Stevenage Road and the WJ sighting of her car parked where it was found was actually correct.
This holds as much water as the Shorrolds Road witnesses.
 
  • #1,433
DIdn't the police say they were looking for anyone who saw SL and Mr Kipper outside Shorrolds Road?
I believe so, yes. It was fair to give the location at that stage. It was the only credible information they had to go on initially. They had to limit responses from the public by just focusing on the limited information they had at the time.

In any case they were overwhelmed and tried to cross-reference everything on a manual card index. HOLMES had been introduced a year or two before.

I think it was a mistake for the police to release the name 'Kipper' and show the estate agent diary. I think that the name became bigger than Suzy and ultimately became a distraction.
 
  • #1,434
I believe so, yes. It was fair to give the location at that stage. It was the only credible information they had to go on initially. They had to limit responses from the public by just focusing on the limited information they had at the time.

In any case they were overwhelmed and tried to cross-reference everything on a manual card index. HOLMES had been introduced a year or two before.

I think it was a mistake for the police to release the name 'Kipper' and show the estate agent diary. I think that the name became bigger than Suzy and ultimately became a distraction.
Why didn't they just ask whether anyone had seen SL and leave it at that?
 
  • #1,435
@TimFisher1965 can you tell us more about SL's phonecalls on the Monday morning before she left for lunch?
 
  • #1,436
Why didn't they just ask whether anyone had seen SL and leave it at that?
What parameters would you have used given the only information available initially the description of SJL, her motor vehicle and the entry in the diary?

You have to manage the response. Too many and your resources are swamped, too little and you can't rewind the clock with a first police appeal for information, which grabs everyone's attention.

I would have given name and description of SJL, vehicle colour, make, model and registration number of vehicle, the correct photo with right the hair colour (basics) and just Shorrolds Road. I would not give the number in Shorrolds Road, mention Mr Kipper or show the diary.

As time goes on you may ask for sightings in other defined locations and the wider area. I would never have mentioned 'Kipper'. I have kept that for police eyes only and told estate agency staff to not mention it to anyone.
 
  • #1,437
What parameters would you have used given the only information available initially the description of SJL, her motor vehicle and the entry in the diary?

You have to manage the response. Too many and your resources are swamped, too little and you can't rewind the clock with a first police appeal for information, which grabs everyone's attention.

I would have given name and description of SJL, vehicle colour, make, model and registration number of vehicle, the correct photo with right the hair colour (basics) and just Shorrolds Road. I would not give the number in Shorrolds Road, mention Mr Kipper or show the diary.

As time goes on you may ask for sightings in other defined locations and the wider area. I would never have mentioned 'Kipper'. I have kept that for police eyes only and told estate agency staff to not mention it to anyone.
I wouldn't have mentioned Shorrolds Rd but would have given the car details and her photo.
 
  • #1,438
But that’s just assuming that’s what she did - it’s actually a lot more logical she would just go later on when she got home as the pub is on her way home. Why would she go out of her way when she is so busy at work when she goes past there on the way home from work?

This just makes her day even more complicated
YES, suzy was going to pick up her missing items on her way home after the 6pm viewing with joanna at 43 wadermar.
 
  • #1,439
Why didn't they just ask whether anyone had seen SL and leave it at that?
Indeed!

Had I have known SL and say, saw her in Putney that lunchtime, I wouldn't have bothered the police as evidently they were only interested in sightings in SR!
 
  • #1,440
i dont believe suzy is buried in the cellar of the POW. DV has just come up with that theory with no evidence to show for it.
 
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