UK UK - Suzy Lamplugh, 25, Fulham, 28 Jul 1986 #3

[Cherwell]

I have watched BW being interviewed about what she saw. She does not strike me as someone who is certain of who or what they saw.....somewhat hesitant.

She reminded me very much of Lady Diana Spencer, in her style and mannerisms.

 

[Cherwell]

She saw enough to identify the hat on the back shelf of the car.
That’s very telling imo

Surely she'd have had to turn her head to see something on the back shelf?

I'd like to know how fast all parties were going.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

She saw enough to identify the hat on the back shelf of the car.


That’s very telling imo

Source?

It not something I recall BW saying when she was interviewed.

I recall that a witness who saw a Fiesta parked in Stevenage Road mentioned the hat on the back shelf.

Additionally, as @Cherwell says, BW would have to turn around, whilst cycling, as the car had passed her to look into the rear window!

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[asyousay]

Source?

It not something I recall BW saying when she was interviewed.

I recall that a witness who saw a Fiesta parked in Stevenage Road mentioned the hat on the back shelf.

Additionally, as @Cherwell says, BW would have to turn around, whilst cycling, as the car had passed her to look into the rear window!

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Maybe I have gotten confused but I remember somebody mentioning the hat. I will do a search to see if I can see where I saw it.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

Surely she'd have had to turn her head to see something on the back shelf?

I'd like to know how fast all parties were going.

FWIW: 30 mph speed limit on Fulham Palace Road, Cyclist 10-15 mph approx. So at the lowest (30 + 10), 40 mph was the speed they were heading away from each other.

Not very scientific I know, and doesn't take into account any congestion in 1986. It ran pretty freely in this part of town, generally, in 1986.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

Maybe I have gotten confused but I remember somebody mentioning the hat. I will do a search to see if I can see where I saw it.

Apologies @asyousay, I stand corrected:

AS says on p.52 that BW referred to a "white Ford Fiesta with a straw boater on the back sill"

That BW doesn't mention this on the TV clip, unless it was cut short, would be something to delve into.

BW still doesn't sound particularly credible and there is a high possibility that her earlier meetings with SJL and having seen her car before, and no doubt the boater, may have influenced what she saw on the '28th July'. Maybe she was mistaken over the day?

Although BW's statement would seem entirely credible if it wasn't for the sound sightings of the parked Fiesta in Stevenage Road from 12:45 onwards.

Could the Fiesta have left Stevenage Road and returned later?

If the Fiesta was in Stevenage Road at 12:45, how did SJL get to Shorrolds Road and at what time, if it was her?

Witness evidence can be notoriously unreliable, which is why prosecution barristers can tie eye witnesses in knots in Crown Court, and make them doubt their own sanity!

Curiouser and curiouser.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

She reminded me very much of Lady Diana Spencer, in her style and mannerisms.

The doe eyed look up....somewhat disarming

 

[Cherwell]

I'm not troubled by her hesitation over left and right, as I think it's quite natural in this context. Facing someone, your right is their left, and vice versa. She took a moment to get that right.

Odd that the reconstruction lingers on a stationary white Fiesta, while the sighting was of one being driven.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

I'm not troubled by her hesitation over left and right, as I think it's quite natural in this context. Facing someone, your right is their left, and vice versa. She took a moment to get that right.

Odd that the reconstruction lingers on a stationary white Fiesta, while the sighting was of one being driven.

I've no concern with the left/right element either....she just seems a little unsure....not forthwright in what she saw.

It's also poor journalism that:

1. The car is shown parked at the entrance to the cemetery, not travelling towards Hammersmith as described
2. BW is shown cycling towards Hammersmith and not Fulham/Putney, as she said

These types of errors may have an impact of others understanding and possibly prevent others coming forward, who may corroborate a witness. They may doubt what they saw if it is materially different from their experience.

 

[asyousay]

Apologies @asyousay, I stand corrected:

AS says on p.52 that BW referred to a "white Ford Fiesta with a straw boater on the back sill"

That BW doesn't mention this on the TV clip, unless it was cut short, would be something to delve into.

BW still doesn't sound particularly credible and there is a high possibility that her earlier meetings with SJL and having seen her car before, and no doubt the boater, may have influenced what she saw on the '28th July'. Maybe she was mistaken over the day?

Although BW's statement would seem entirely credible if it wasn't for the sound sightings of the parked Fiesta in Stevenage Road from 12:45 onwards.

Could the Fiesta have left Stevenage Road and returned later?

If the Fiesta was in Stevenage Road at 12:45, how did SJL get to Shorrolds Road and at what time, if it was her?

Witness evidence can be notoriously unreliable, which is why prosecution barristers can tie eye witnesses in knots in Crown Court, and make them doubt their own sanity!

Curiouser and curiouser.

Thank you and I know the police put a lot of stock into this from reports online.


It was a friend of hers and she saw the hat on the back of the seat so those two things together does make me believe she saw her. Even if my friend had had a haircut I would know them. She was so sure it was her she even waved in passing.


moo

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

This caught my eye, and I wondered if there was confusion with the Sandra Court case, which is quoted in the same wikipedia article:

"When the Ford Sierra was discovered at the north London scrap yard during the Lamplugh reinvestigations of the early 2000s, two hairs were found inside that matched the DNA of Sandra Court. Cannan would have had access to this car when Court was murdered. Despite this, the DNA evidence was not strong enough to bring a prosecution against Cannan for her murder."



That really isn't true! While every town had its share of those kind of basic, masculine, regulars-only kind of pubs, most pubs catered to a wider clientele and were comfortable and smart. That was the case even back in the 1970s, and even earlier.

I guess I was in the wrong places then. I worked in many pubs in the 80s as I was a 'barmaid' how they called it in those days and later on did a freelance job that involved doing a day or two in pubs all over the country so I've seen my fair share but I respect that there may have been far nicer places I didn't get to see. I used to feel at home in pubs but it's weird I haven't been in one for many years until recently and it was really horrible.

 

[Konstantin]

I have watched BW being interviewed about what she saw. She does not strike me as someone who is certain of who or what they saw.....somewhat hesitant.

I would question how she saw a hat in the back window of a car she was cycling towards. I would really like to see a reconstruction of this to see how long you would have to actually look at who was inside a car on the other side of the road and if you can see in the back window. It would have been a brief encounter.

 

[Cherwell]

She does say "I recognised her and the car" so I wonder if she saw the distinctive GAN numberplate.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

I would question how she saw a hat in the back window of a car she was cycling towards. I would really like to see a reconstruction of this to see how long you would have to actually look at who was inside a car on the other side of the road and if you can see in the back window. It would have been a brief encounter.

A brief encounter indeed.

Although the hat in the photos of SJL's Fiesta from Stevenage Road was on the offside of the parcel shelf and there were rear quarterlight windows, so BW could conceivably see the hat.

BW is one of those witnesses who needed to be asked very searching questions to ascertain her reliability and confidence over day/time/identification of SLJ/vehicle and seeing the hat.

Just because if it is deemed very reliable then it provides a later accurate sighting of SJL.

Personally, I think the first sighting of SJL's Fiesta in Stevenage Road at approx 12:45 is more reliable. Two witnesses together, one of whom lived in the property whose garage was partially obstructed.

I appreciate that it throws the established times/sightings in Shorrolds Road out.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

She does say "I recognised her and the car" so I wonder if she saw the distinctive GAN numberplate.

BW says it was a white Fiesta, but then acknowledges that they are quite "common". BW doesn't mention the VRM.

My assessment of this statement is that she is not entirely convinced that it was SJL's car that she saw.....and hence not convinced it was SJL. The woman in the car was looking at the man to her left so BW would have a profile view of the right side!

The mention of the hat may be her mind playing tricks as it's fair to assume that BW had seen SJL with the car on a previous occasion.

Some people really do think they saw something, because they want to be able to help so badly.

It's just gut instinct with me....having seen her discuss it on TV. I'm just not convinced she saw SJL.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

DBM - duplicate

 

[asyousay]

BW says it was a white Fiesta, but then acknowledges that they are quite "common". BW doesn't mention the VRM.

My assessment of this statement is that she is not entirely convinced that it was SJL's car that she saw.....and hence not convinced it was SJL. The woman in the car was looking at the man to her left so BW would have a profile view of the right side!

The mention of the hat may be her mind playing tricks as it's fair to assume that BW had seen SJL with the car on a previous occasion.

Some people really do think they saw something, because they want to be able to help so badly.

It's just gut instinct with me....having seen her discuss it on TV. I'm just not convinced she saw SJL.

Well LE believed her and she was absolutely certain she sure her from a newspaper article I just read. She was interviewed at Kensington police station so it was obviously a formal interview to check she was correct in what she believed she saw.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

DBM - duplicate (system error)

 

[Whitehall 1212]

Well LE believed her and she was absolutely certain she sure her from a newspaper article I just read. She was interviewed at Kensington police station so it was obviously a formal interview to check she was correct in what she believed she saw.

Police may believe that what an eye-witness says is an honest account of what they believed they saw. That is very different from police being certain that the information is accurate. Police are well aware just how wrong eye witnesses can be when it comes to giving statements and only when there is independent corroboration from other witnesses does the reliability increase.

I've looked at the linked page from the Guardian newspaper from 21st August 1986, more than three weeks after SJL went missing. Why so long? Surely BW was aware......this delay is a concern as BW would surely have come forward within a few days if she was certain she saw SJL!

It's important to note that it says that BW was interviewed "yesterday" at Kensington Pol Stn. This implies the 20th August. This is a long time after BW states she saw SJL and this raises questions over her recall and reliability, i.e. right day/time/SJL?

I think it is a case that BW has convinced herself that she saw SJL in the period between the 28th July and the 20th August, when she spoke with the police. This would not be entirely unusual, particularly as time had passed and there had been no confirmed sightings of SJL.

The information from WJ at 123 SR re SJL's car parked up was obtained through house-to-house enquiries within the first 24 hours and was corroborated by AM, a friend/neighbour who is also the lady whose garage was partially obstructed.

The witness WJ appears much more reliable in terms of timeliness, excellent reasons to remember (inc. times) and corroboration. (AS p26-27).

This is not to say that the Fiesta did not move, was seen by BW and then returned to the same spot.....although is that likely in these circumstances? In my opinion is is not likely, as the Fiesta was unattended when first seen.

Aug 21, 1986, page 3 - The Guardian at Newspapers.com - Newspapers.com

View the digital scanned newspaper from The Guardian dated Aug 21, 1986, page 3.

www.newspapers.com

 

[Cluesleuth]

Well LE believed her and she was absolutely certain she sure her from a newspaper article I just read. She was interviewed at Kensington police station so it was obviously a formal interview to check she was correct in what she believed she saw.

All police have to do in interview is to pose to the question to BW if there was a possibilty that say it could be a similar car to SJL's and how sure was that it was actually SJL's own car, of course then BW would have some hesitation and I think anyone of us in her position would say well conceivably it could have been a car similar to SJL's fiesta. BW does not come across as ureliable to me and the Detective on Crimewatch did her sighting had to be taken seriously because she had known SJL personally.
Bear in mind that this sighting on Fulham Palace rd and time which was now being presented must have thrown the police completely they were bound to pose the question to BW