UK UK - Suzy Lamplugh, 25, Fulham, 28 Jul 1986 #4

[Whitehall 1212]

Maybe it’s America I am thinking of but I thought most adults had to be missing 24 hours before they will do anything.

I can assure you that going as far back as 1985 and quite possibly before that there was no 24 hour 'missing before police reporting' policy in English or Welsh forces.

I can't answer for Scotland or Northern Ireland.....I've no idea what they do!

Report or find a missing person

How to report a person who's gone missing or a child who's run away - including if you lose contact while they're abroad

www.gov.uk

 

[Whitehall 1212]

Google Maps seems to show there is a narrow road Rostrevor Mews which runs behind where the Crocodile Tears restaurant was. If it is correct that Suzy Lamplugh turned right out of the office that lunchtime, could it be the case that she was heading to this road in the belief that her car was parked there. As it's seeming narrowness would indicate that it doesn't appear to be a main road, could this potentially be a place where someone could commit an abduction and not be seen doing so? Does anyone on this thread know the area well enough to make a sound judgement about this?

My thoughts would be:

1. The two locations mentioned where the Fiesta was parked are either Whittingstall Road or Radipole Road. Is there any information that rebuts both?

2. Rostrevor Mews off Chesilton Road would necessitate SJL to walk away from both of the roads at 1.

3. SJL's office diary, collection of the keys and the departing comments to colleagues collectively support the viewing at 37 SR.

4. The sightings O/S 37 SR are collectively compelling. If SJL was abducted in Rostrevor Mews how do we reasonably account for the sightings at 37 SR?

5. Is there anything to support SJL walking into Chesilton Road when leaving Sturgis?

6. Aside from my thoughts above, an abductor would likely derive less risk of being seen and/or heard if abducting a driver in a vehicle parked in Rostrevor Mews.

The key risks would be the limited element of surprise available in daylight and the potential for escape to be thwarted by a deliberate or accidental vehicle obstruction in Rostrevor Mews or at the either end.

I think a potential abductor would consider it too risky. Put yourself in their position. Are there less risky options?

JMO

 

[Whitehall 1212]

The Dawes Rd, Fulham Rd, Fulham Palace Rd triangle wasn't gentrified at all at that point. I think the pair of them would have stood out. Doyle and Devere would have noticed SLP because she was attractive, hence their postitive identification and the deeper observation of her having hair that was blonder than the poster. They could have taken a crafty look when walking by. And JC? Yes, because of his sharp suit and looks perhaps. Maybe they noticed him because he was the one who'd got the girl!

Good post.

The honest reality is that most men would have noticed how attractive SJL was, particularly if she was smiling as highlighted by one witness. My view is that her eyes are not easily forgotten.

This absolutely lends itself to a witness recognising her instantly if shown a photo.

JMO

 

[Jenesaisquoi]

I watched most of the channel 5 documentary. Is it possible that a second car was parked correctly in the roadside parking bay near the garage. Then Suzy’s car, driven by her under duress, pulled up behind it. She was instructed to push the seat back and handbrake was off so the kidnapper could scoot over and get them both out of the driver’s side (knife or imitation gun rather than real gun, otherwise he could have taken the risk to go round the back of the car). Then get her into the second vehicle and off they go. He likely promised not to harm her if she did what he said.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

On another note I am still creeped out by the footage of JC in his dating service video as shown on the CH5 documentary. Ugh. There is something just off about him.

But, if we didn't know what he is, what would our assessment be...... behaviourial/forensic psychiatrists and psychologists aside?

I'd be so interested to know what made the dating agency think that something wasn't quite right and so didn't send the video to their clients?

It's a cracking capture of just how charismatic a psychopath can be. He was probably even sharper when not under the pressure of being filmed and asked questions.

Yes, he used the wrong vocabulary in places but I consider it gave a chilling insight into the mask of JC.

JMO

 

[Eastend Eagle]

My thoughts would be:

1. The two locations mentioned where the Fiesta was parked are either Whittingstall Road or Radipole Road. Is there any information that rebuts both?

2. Rostrevor Mews off Chesilton Road would necessitate SJL to walk away from both of the roads at 1.

3. SJL's office diary, collection of the keys and comments collectively support the viewing at 37 SR.

4. The sightings O/S 37 SR are collectively compelling. If SJL was abducted in Rostrevor Mews how do we reasonably account for the sightings at 37 SR?

5. Is there anything to support SJL walking into Chesilton Road when leaving Sturgis?

6. Aside from my thoughts above, an abductor would derive a greater degree of concealment if abducting a driver in a vehicle parked in Rostrevor Mews.

The key risks would be a limited element of surprise in daylight and the potential for escape to be thwarted by an unexpected obstruction at the either end.

I think a potential abductor would consider it too risky. Put yourself in their position. Are there less risky ways?

JMO

I may be mistaken and apologies for wasting peoples' time if I am, but I seem to recall someone posting on one of these threads that SJL was seen to have turned right on leaving the office, if this is correct it would presumably have been by one of her colleagues, I was just wondering if anyone remembers posting this information or remembers someone else posting it, presumably, if so, such information would have come from one of the books or documentaries.

I still struggle with the fact that for more than 35 years the public had been led to believe that Suzy's car had been parked in Whittingstall Road and then after such a long time the office junior makes the claim that infact he told SJL her car was parked in Radipole Road. Presumably, it was the office junior who told the police in the first place that the car had been parked in Whittingstall Road as he had been the last to drive it before that lunchtime. It would surely have to have been extremely poor police work for them to have told the public the car was parked in Whittingstall Road if the office junior had told them it had been parked in Radipole. So I struggle with the inconsistency of this. Perhaps the truth may be that the car was parked in neither of these roads.

I understand Whitehall that you are very convinced about the eyewitness reports from Shorrolds Road but I also understand that others on the thread have said that these aren't entirely convincing and may have been prompted by reconstructions the supposed witnesses had watched. There doesn't appear to be anything known FOR CERTAIN about SJL'S movements after she left the office that lunchtime. So, is it possible that SJL was abducted almost immediately after leaving the office that lunchtime ( either by using her car or not ) in a place out of the public gaze with her believing infact that her car was parked somewhere other than either Whittingstall or Radipole Roads?

 

[Pinkizzy]

But, if we didn't know what he is, what would our assessment be...... behaviourial/forensic psychiatrists and psychologists aside?

I'd be so interested to know what made the dating agency think that something wasn't quite right and so didn't send the video to their clients?

It's a cracking capture of just how charismatic a psychopath can be. He was probably even sharper when not under the pressure of being filmed and asked questions.

Yes, he used the wrong vocabulary in places but I consider it gave a chilling insight into the mask of JC.

JMO

Didn't JC give a Paddington Bear hard stare to the camera during the interview? That was very chilling and would be a definite red flag for me.

 

[Pinkizzy]

Good post.

The honest reality is that most men would have noticed how attractive SJL was, particularly if she was smiling as highlighted by one witness. My view is that her eyes are not easily forgotten.

This absolutely lends itself to a witness recognising her instantly if shown a photo.

JMO

If SJL was so stunning to men, why didn't more witnesses come forward after her disappearance?

 

[Whitehall 1212]

I may be mistaken and apologies for wasting peoples' time if I am, but I seem to recall someone posting on one of these threads that SJL was seen to have turned right on leaving the office, if this is correct it would presumably have been by one of her colleagues, I was just wondering if anyone remembers posting this information or remembers someone else posting it, presumably, if so, such information would have come from one of the books or documentaries.

I still struggle with the fact that for more than 35 years the public had been led to believe that Suzy's car had been parked in Whittingstall Road and then after such a long time the office junior makes the claim that infact he told SJL her car was parked in Radipole Road. Presumably, it was the office junior who told the police in the first place that the car had been parked in Whittingstall Road as he had been the last to drive it before that lunchtime. It would surely have to have been extremely poor police work for them to have told the public the car was parked in Whittingstall Road if the office junior had told them it had been parked in Radipole. So I struggle with the inconsistency of this. Perhaps the truth may be that the car was parked in neither of these roads.

I understand Whitehall that you are very convinced about the eyewitness reports from Shorrolds Road but I also understand that others on the thread have said that these aren't entirely convincing and may have been prompted by reconstructions the supposed witnesses had watched. There doesn't appear to be anything known FOR CERTAIN about SJL'S movements after she left the office that lunchtime. So, is it possible that SJL was abducted almost immediately after leaving the office that lunchtime ( either by using her car or not ) in a place out of the public gaze with her believing infact that her car was parked somewhere other than either Whittingstall or Radipole Roads?

New hypotheses are always good.

As with everything the devil is in the detail.

To advance a hypothesis evidence is needed. Without evidence it's never more than a hypothesis.

It is not good practice to dismiss witness evidence en masse.

Each witnesses statement needs to be reviewed bit by bit with reasons to doubt or support it identified. This also applies to the credibility of the witness.

I would urge you to look at the witness evidence in detail. HR's first description to MG, both ID'S reporting the woman with blonder hair than disclosed at the press conference, all the descriptions of the man being so similar, the timings and the reason for them etc.

There is rarely a smoking gun with investigation, the picture is built up from a lot of smaller elements which, when combined, help to build a credible account of what took place.

 

[Cherwell]

If SJL was so stunning to men, why didn't more witnesses come forward after her disappearance?

On that note, the claim that she was given a desk in the window as bait to attract people to come in (this was also mentioned in the C5 documentary). It doesn't make much sense to me, as photos of the estate agency show that the windows were full of property photographs and descriptions. You'd have to make a real effort to peer in past those and see anyone sitting at a desk.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

If SJL was so stunning to men, why didn't more witnesses come forward after her disappearance?

What reasons would you consider?

 

[Whitehall 1212]

On that note, the claim that she was given a desk in the window as bait to attract people to come in (this was also mentioned in the C5 documentary). It doesn't make much sense to me, as photos of the estate agency show that the windows were full of property photographs and descriptions. You'd have to make a real effort to peer in past those and see anyone sitting at a desk.

Maybe it meant in direct eyeline of the corner positioned entrance door.....to draw a customer in, at the point they reached the glazing by the door.

JMO

 

[Whitehall 1212]

Didn't JC give a Paddington Bear hard stare to the camera during the interview? That was very chilling and would be a definite red flag for me.

Call me cynical but I wonder if all of us would pull off a random Paddington stare if the video was put on slow-mo or paused just at the right moment?

The same would go for a silly look, a quizzical look a fearful look, etc!

I always think people pull a whole range of faces when they do slow-mo reviews at sporting events on TV.

Maybe it's just me though and the effect of all the marmalade sandwiches addling my noggin.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

CBD repeats himself A LOT! I guess he's written a few books and he copy and pastes that info into the other books.

Is it always the vicar, in the billiard room with the lead pipe?

 

[Whitehall 1212]

I watched most of the channel 5 documentary. Is it possible that a second car was parked correctly in the roadside parking bay near the garage. Then Suzy’s car, driven by her under duress, pulled up behind it. She was instructed to push the seat back and handbrake was off so the kidnapper could scoot over and get them both out of the driver’s side (knife or imitation gun rather than real gun, otherwise he could have taken the risk to go round the back of the car). Then get her into the second vehicle and off they go. He likely promised not to harm her if she did what he said.

Rule nothing in or out until the other information you have either supports it or eliminates it.

Just building on your hypothesis. The abductor could have forced (fear/knife threat) SJL down into the rear seats of her car at some point. He may have driven to Stevenage Road and pulled up as you describe, in front/behind his car, which was parked earlier.

Then possibly pushing the seat back and leaving the handbrake off, to maintain more control of SJL, by making her clamber through the gap between the seats, before transferring her to his car and departing.

It's just a hypothesis without any evidence to support it. If SJL and the abductor came from 37 SR then the first witness sighting of car in Stevenage Road at 12:40ish wouldn't fit (WJ). Nor would BW's sighting in Fulham Palace Road, although I've long held reservations over the reliability of her statement.

There were some workmen in Stevenage Road.... where exactly in relation to SJL's Fiesta I've not seen reported. They were digging a trench but don't appear to be great witnesses!

There was a witness (MJ) who reported seeing a young woman on her own outside a house with a Sturgis 'For Sale sign in Stevenage Road and then she saw an older man with dark features and a dark briefcase an. Source: AS p.76. This wouldn't fit the hypothesis though....not sure how reliable she was

JMO

 

[WestLondoner]

On that note, the claim that she was given a desk in the window as bait to attract people to come in (this was also mentioned in the C5 documentary). It doesn't make much sense to me, as photos of the estate agency show that the windows were full of property photographs and descriptions. You'd have to make a real effort to peer in past those and see anyone sitting at a desk.

That claim originated with SJL herself. It's in her diary. There's no corroboration of it. If you look at the CW reconstruction pretty well every desk is in the window.

 

[Konstantin]

But, if we didn't know what he is, what would our assessment be...... behaviourial/forensic psychiatrists and psychologists aside?

I'd be so interested to know what made the dating agency think that something wasn't quite right and so didn't send the video to their clients?

It's a cracking capture of just how charismatic a psychopath can be. He was probably even sharper when not under the pressure of being filmed and asked questions.

Yes, he used the wrong vocabulary in places but I consider it gave a chilling insight into the mask of JC.

JMO

Oh I am definitely creeped out because I know who and what he is. If I saw it without knowing I would probably think he was a bit smarmy, he is playing up to the woman interviewing him, talking about his fantasy. But then I do know who he is so I can never have a naïve reaction to him. HIs ex-employer interviewed in teh video talked about how he was attractive to women but his comments about JC having the thoughts he did about "yuppies" was creepy.

It's often hard to tell from photos and video what people are like in real life too--he was probably more charismatic in real life. He certainly managed to get girlfriends--the solicitor for example (she does sound very weird herself). We know he is a compulsive/serial liar (which makes DV writing to him asking if he done it rather odd to me, of course he is going to say he never done it.)

 

[Crusader21]

That claim originated with SJL herself. It's in her diary. There's no corroboration of it. If you look at the CW reconstruction pretty well every desk is in the window.

I'm dubious about that 'desk in the window' line. Especially when all the desks are obscured by many lines of A4 house for sale banners.

To see SL you'd have needed to peer in, in between the sales lines, IMO she wouldn't be visbible to a passer-by on the street ....

 

[WiseOwl]

I have just read a book called UNSOLVED CRIMES, edited by Claire Welch. These real-life crimes are taken from the case files of The People & The Daily Mirror, so I presume that Claire Welch had access to these MSM outlets reports on the various unsolved crimes that are in the book.

In it there is a chapter on Suzy (page 104), it's only 11 pages long and doesn't really tell us anything more than we already know about the case. However, there was one subject I can't recall hearing about before and that was a link to the Richmond sex attacker.

In the book it states that by 1st August the police were linking Suzy's disappearance to a frenzied sex attacker who had already assaulted 3 women within 18 months in the Richmond area of London. The likeness of the photofit of the man seen with Suzy and the sex attacker were strikingly similar. Victims of the Richmond sex attacker had a razor blade held to their throats.

Has anyone on this thread heard of this link to the Richmond sex attacker before?

 

[RichardKimble]

On that note, the claim that she was given a desk in the window as bait to attract people to come in (this was also mentioned in the C5 documentary). It doesn't make much sense to me, as photos of the estate agency show that the windows were full of property photographs and descriptions. You'd have to make a real effort to peer in past those and see anyone sitting at a desk.

I thought the same .