UK UK - Suzy Lamplugh, 25, Fulham, 28 Jul 1986 #4

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  • #781
Kipper is a completely preposterous name and especially so if the claim is that Cannan used it. In no particular order,
  • how was it established that he was known by anyone as Kipper before 1989? Presumably the source was other criminals; are they all truthful?
  • what was the origin of the supposed nickname, as there seem to be several. He wore kipper ties (in 1986? and before that, didn't he wear a prison uniform?), he kipped a lot (did he?), Kipper is 'kidnapper' with the DNA removed - which was it?
  • why on earth would you use your prison nickname, if such it was, to conceal your identity, given it leads right back to you? It would be like Machine-Gun Kelly cunningly booking viewings in the name of Mr. Machine-Gun, or Pretty Boy Floyd doing so as Mr. Pretty-Boy. Them flatfoots, they'll never catch me! Yeah, right.
  • As terry says above, why was his alias Mr Kipper here but Mr Peterson or Mr Unremarkable every other time?
On the principle of parsimony, the likeliest explanation to me is that the first name that came into SJL's head when she thought of Shorrolds Road was ole Kipper, a bloke she knew who lived there. This begs the question of why Shorrolds Road, of course. But if she thought she was going to a genuine viewing, why did she put in a fake name?
i dont think she wrote the mr kipper apt in her diary. i always thought it was used because mr kipper is short for mr kidnapper. people will probably find my theory BS, but it is what i believe. the kidnapper was playing mind games by using such a bizarre name like mr kipper, aka, mr kidnapper.
 
  • #782
suzy knew a man named leslie skipper who lived on shorrolds rd. he was a journalist on holiday at the time, and the investigation team believe that is why she wrote down the mr kipper entry in her diary.
Are you sure LS lived on Shorrolds rd?

Thats not something I have read before.
 
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  • #783
  • #784
its in the AS book, and they mentioned his name on the recent documentary.
 
  • #785
its in the AS book, and they mentioned his name on the recent documentary.
Can you give me the page number please :)

I have the AS book the only reference I can find for LS is on page 126
They found out about a young BBC journalist called Leslie Skipper, who also knew Susannah.But he too was quickly eliminated.
 
  • #786
my copy of AS book is at my sisters house, but check the recent documentary on lamplugh case. the officer, pc jones who broke down the door of suzy flat on disreali rd the night she vanished. he talks about LS, and how he lived on shorrolds rd. i think it was the vanishing of suzy lamplugh, or, the mystery of suzy lamplugh.
 
  • #787
Maybe they covered for each other? Some people have speculated that 2 people may have been involved, in which case it's a possibility there are a couple of false statements that are on file from the original investigation.

In DV's book, he says that Suzy attended a party at 54 Shorrolds Road around 6 months before she disappeared. In the following months leading up to her vanishing it has been said that there was someone stalking her, phoning her up at home and work, and sending her flowers.

Is it possible that this person was someone she met at the party at Shorrolds Road?
yes, i heard suzy attended the party at shorrolds rd in dec 1985, and there was a mystery man at the party who kept asking about suzy, but nobody seem to know who he was. he was said to be a stranger who crashed he party, and he looked like the kipper E fit. if so, it was not JC. he was banged up at the time.
 
  • #788
Was there never a search of properties then ?

Probably not if they were looking for a Mr Kipper abductor, hardly likely to have access to Sturgis properties.
 
  • #789

The prime suspect in one of the UK’s longest-ever murder investigations is on his deathbed, it has been reported.
John Cannan, now 68, has always denied any involvement in Suzy Lamplugh’s disappearance.
 
  • #790
Interesting obit in the Bellylaugh today.

In the early hours of St Valentine’s Day 1988, Lynette White, a 20-year-old prostitute, was hacked to death in her seedy one-room flat...Police initially began hunting for a lone white man, seen bloodied and leaving the scene...Nine months after the killing a woman came forward and claimed that she had seen a group of black men standing outside the entrance to the flats on the night in question.

The woman, whose story turned out to be a complete fabrication, named one of the men...soon a number of other names were in the frame including...Tony Paris, a steel industry worker and nightclub doorman, and a married man with two sons...witnesses, including two prostitutes, were...“bullied and browbeaten” into corroborating the fictional version of events....The men were freed on appeal in December 1992, their flawed convictions revealing police techniques which were described by the then Lord Chief Justice, Lord Taylor, as “almost passing belief”.

in 2002 Paris was the first to volunteer to give a DNA swab for testing. The results confirmed his innocence....Police subsequently found that their DNA sample was a perfect match for...Jeffrey Gafoor – who immediately confessed to the crime and was subsequently sentenced to life for murder.

Later, eight former South Wales Police detectives stood trial accused of conspiracy to pervert the course of justice by agreeing to “mould, manipulate, influence and fabricate evidence”, but were found not guilty when the trial collapsed in December 2011 due to disclosure failings and the discovery that crucial papers had been destroyed by one of the corruption investigation officers.
 
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  • #791
I am trying to untangle what actually happened and where and when with this lost property.

AL thinks, and AS repeats, that SJL lost this stuff on the Friday night. AL has also maintained, however, that he and SJL never went to the PoW, but did go to Mossops next door. Hence the conundrum here is, if that is true and they never went to the PoW, how was SJL's stuff found at the PoW on the Sunday night, when the nearest she'd been to the place was Friday and next door?

So the points you'd want to clear up are:
  1. Did she ever go to the PoW? We can only know this by asking her (not possible), or her circle, or the pub staff, i.e. did they recognise her. MH does not remember her as a regular, but that's not the same as 'never went there'. AFAIK nobody of her circle volunteered anything on this. But she expressed no surprise to colleagues at where her stuff had turned up, which would be odd if she never went there. Inconclusive.
  2. Did she go that weekend? The opportunities would have been on Friday and Sunday. On Friday AL says they were at Mossops. On Sunday night, nobody seems to know where she was after she left her parents' house. She could have met somebody there, or she could have used the payphone for a call AL says took place.
  3. If she didn't go that weekend, or went on Friday, how did stuff from her handbag find its way next door on Sunday? This is inexplicable given that her stuff was supposed to have been found near the outside tables. It did not knock around the front of the pub for 48 hours.
  4. If she did go to the PoW did she go with AL? At the time he said yes, now he says no. If they went there on Friday where was her stuff between then and Sunday? If they went there on Sunday why does he say otherwise and how could there then have been a phone call with her? She left the beach before him, so if he met her there, how could this have been arranged pre-mobile phones? Or with anyone else, for that matter?
  5. If they did go to the PoW, why did he say they never went there? She could have gone there but without him, so that when he says "we" never went there he is correct.
It feels to me like they went to Mossops on Friday and she stopped off to use the PoW phones on Sunday. I just don't see how her stuff gets to the PoW from Mossops. There needs to be an actual visit. She apparently spoke to AL on the phone that evening, but he doesn't know when. That call had to be either from her parents' house, from her own flat, or from some point in between. The PoW had payphones and there is evidence in the form of her lost property that she went there.
 
  • #792
Nobody places her at the POW on Sunday though . There is zero evidence she went there as her boyfriend said they never went there.


Is Mossops the key here because that’s where CV went for his Chinese after pub closing?
 
  • #793
dbm
 
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  • #794
Mossops wasn't a Chinese, and if she never went to the PoW, how did she lose property there? Isn't that evidence she did go there?
 
  • #795
Mossops wasn't a Chinese, and if she never went to the PoW, how did she lose property there? Isn't that evidence she did go there?
I agree, it a stretch to think someone lifted her things while she was windsurfing and then left them at the PoW.

AL first said her items were stolen at the PoW and it ruined the evening.
Later to DV he said he never went to the PoW, note he never went. So he’s not saying SJL never went to the PoW.

There’s been much talk of SJL dumping AL, the events of that final weekend tend to support this conclusion.

She went to the party on Saturday (no mention of AL), then again on Sunday she traveled to the coast and back without him.

IMO this is shouting AL your history, again
IMO she stopped at the PoW to call AL. She didn’t want NB (her flat mate) to hear the conversation. It’s likely AL feeling wounded by SJL dumping him said some things he later regretted.
This would explain why he reacted as he did to DV’s questions.

Like just about everything in this case there’s no direct evidence, you just have to read events and decide what they might be telling you.
 
  • #796
Mossops wasn't a Chinese, and if she never went to the PoW, how did she lose property there? Isn't that evidence she did go there?


No CV claims he found them there but if you believe DV then he would lie wouldn’t he?


There is zero evidence of a phone call from the pub on Sunday. It actually makes zero sense she went out to make a phone call late on a Sunday when the flat had a phone. It’s just conjecture to try and make the story fit and it simply doesn’t add up imo



I’m all ears though if you have supporting evidence that proves she often left the flat to make phone calls because she didn’t want her flat mate to overhear her conversations.


Also didn’t her boyfriend claim she didn’t ring him on the Sunday? I’m sure I read that somewhere originally.


Mooooooooo
 
  • #797
Like just about everything in this case there’s no direct evidence, you just have to read events and decide what they might be telling you.


Of course and the evidence says the items was stolen on Friday and that Sunday night there wasn’t a pub visit. LE have also never come out and made a claim items went missing Sunday have they?
 
  • #798
Of course and the evidence says the items was stolen on Friday and that Sunday night there wasn’t a pub visit. LE have also never come out and made a claim items went missing Sunday have they?
No, but how did they get there if AL now says he never went there on the Friday.
Also, how can you be stressed about loosing the items on the Monday morning ( according to James C), but appear normal all over the weekend.
This suggests she didn’t miss them until the Monday morning. CV says he found them outside on Sunday, not on the steps on Friday as has been reported generally.
It would make no difference to CV which day he found them, Friday or Monday.
As he was only due to take over on Monday wouldn’t he have arrived on Sunday?
 
  • #799
I’m all ears though if you have supporting evidence that proves she often left the flat to make phone calls because she didn’t want her flat mate to overhear her conversations.


Also didn’t her boyfriend claim she didn’t ring him on the Sunday? I’m sure I read that somewhere originally.
It's literally what everybody had to do. Your landline was physically tethered to the wall, and there were no cordless handsets. So you had your conversation wherever that was: kitchen, living room, in larger houses (not 2-bed flats) one of the bedrooms. If you receive a personal call on your mobile at work today, you probably walk away from your desk, for the same reason.
Of course and the evidence says the items was stolen on Friday and that Sunday night there wasn’t a pub visit. LE have also never come out and made a claim items went missing Sunday have they?
Well, I'm not sure the evidence does say that.

First, the cheque book was more likely lost than stolen, because there was no point stealing a cheque book without the cheque guarantee card. You couldn't pay for anything just with a cheque, because if it were for more than what you had in your account, it would bounce. So you had to produce the cheque card. This had your signature on it and the payee was supposed to compare the signature on that with the one on the cheque you had just written, and make sure they're the same. If they are, s/he writes the number on the card across the back of the cheque. When presented, the bank would then pay that cheque, hence "cheque guarantee card", whether you had enough money in your account or not. Therefore, to use stolen cheques, you needed to steal the cheque card as well. For this reason, banks told you not to keep it with the cheque book. If they suspected that you had, they would deduct the stolen cheques from your balance, exactly like they do with cash withdrawals today if they think you've kept your PIN with your debit card. So theft is unlikely.

Next, if the stuff went missing at Mossop's on Friday, how did it end up at the PoW two days later, and where was it between times?

Third, SJL was apparently pretty exercised on Monday morning about the retrieval of the cheque book. There were at least three phone calls about it - one from her bank to say 'call this pub', and two calls to the pub. If this was such a big deal to her at work on Monday, you have to wonder why she said nothing about it to anyone at work on Saturday morning, or at the party that evening, or all day at the beach on Sunday, or to her mother on Sunday night. The best explanation for this to me is that she hadn't yet lost her stuff at those times.

Finally, AL's claim was that he spoke to SJL on the phone on Sunday, but he can't remember who called whom. So right away, when they were at the beach all day, I ask - why was there a call at all? What could they not discuss there that required a phone call? He claims the point of the call was to arrange something for Tuesday. Why did it suddenly become urgent to discuss that on Sunday night, when it hadn't come up all day? Why not ring her in the office next day? I can believe there was a call, but I reckon it would have been for her to reiterate that she was dumping him, a point he'd clearly not yet absorbed because he'd hung around the coast all day. She could have given him this message in person at the coast, but that would have involved doing so with others around. Given how secretive SJL routinely was in her private life, it defies belief that she'd have done that. Equally, I doubt she would have made this call from the flat living room, with the lodger around. We know she took calls there from people he didn't know and whom none of her other circle seemed to know either - this was a woman who gave nothing away. Realistically, he can't have called her. She left the coast before he did and went to her mother's house, so he'd have struggled even to know where to reach her.

She had to drive past the PoW to get home from her mother's house. She needed to make a private call.There are phone boxes outside the PoW. She'd know that because she had been to Mossop's (and you knew where all the phone boxes were - you had to in case yours went wrong). She needed to move him along because he's not getting it.

Hence I conclude that she did not lose her stuff at either Mossop's or the PoW on Friday, because it is impossible to see how it takes 48 hours to turn up outdoors, and possibly at a different property, or to understand why she said nothing about this to anyone until Monday. She probably stopped at the PoW on Sunday night, because her stuff being found then and there places her then and there. She didn't go there with AL, but to call him to remind him he was chucked, a call he remembers but says was about something else. I don't believe AL's account that the conversation was about arrangements for Tuesday. I think he said this to cover up the fact that he'd been blown out, and to make the police think he and she were still on good terms, and thus he had no motive to kill her. I don't think he did as it happens, but he must have felt vulnerable because it's always the boyfriend, and the police were getting him to do things like try her car out for size.

Where AL's co-operated with interviewers in the past, this has always been further to DL / the Met's theory that JC dunnit. He'd be comfortable with that, because a writer or documentary producer who's bought the JC story isn't going to be interested in verifying AL's account of what happened. Up rocks DV and starts asking questions about just that, which makes AL very uncomfortable very quickly indeed.

Another odd thing about him is that AS and others suggest that he was about to get dumped, and others indicate that he was nobody special to SJL, just someone with whom she turned up to places and events. The only person who seems to have been unaware of this is AL himself.
 
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  • #800
This suggests she didn’t miss them until the Monday morning.
Not really she could have missed them Sunday evening.

Al knew the items were missing
Theres no record of a telephone call between them on Monday before she disappeared.
Did she tell him her items were missing in the Sunday evening telephone call?

Where we know they visited Mossops on Friday evening we have absolutely no idea if she took those items with her over the weekend.

JMO
 
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