UK UK - Suzy Lamplugh, 25, Fulham, 28 Jul 1986 #4

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Points above duly considered - if this was a paramilitary style abduction or a planned event by two psychopaths such as the train line murderers, I doubt they would do anything that involves leaving SJL to do the driving as that could involve too many unknown variables such as non-compliance or nervous / hysterical loss of control over vehicle. They would have had to get her into their vehicle.

 

[WestLondoner]

This is a 1983 Ford promo video for the Fiesta that SJL drove. I watched it hoping it would say something about driver height. No dice, but I did notice at this point that the driver is clearly Mr Kipper.

 

[RichardKimble]

Still quite tricky, though, as how would they keep her subdued while driving? Force her to drive at gunpoint? Or perhaps there was a third person to keep her under control?

Person or persons have overcome this somehow, so in reality not tricky at all.

 

[Cluesleuth]

Do we know how they subdued their other victims?

One way might be to bundle her into the back of a van. One threatens her with a knife while the other drives her car away.

JD's wife said that he had tied her hands with speed using only one hand, she said if she didnt struggle during sex he would loose interest.

He also applied tape to the linings of his jacket he used this to cover the mouths of his victims.

One of the items found in the DM's van was a balaclava.
On one occassion JD was arrested near North Weald Station carrying a knife but after questioning was released.

Over the years DM had a variety of jobs
Builder
Plumber
Taxi cab driver
Chaffuer
Courier

In 1986 he also owned a motorcycle.
They were dubbed the Railway Killers this was most likely because JD worked as a carpenter for British Rail which afforded him free travel on the network. Most of their victims were found near railway stations.
But there is one thing I noticed Ann Lock was a sectretary worked for London Weekend TV before she left work on the evening she was murdered she handed over scripts to Couriers in the foyer. Alsion Day worked for a solicitor did they use a courier too?

Top of the SJL's work diary was an entry with reference to a courier.

This may be a coincidental but worth checking out in my opinion.
JMO

P.S. DM is serving his sentence in the same jail as JC Full Sttton Jail

DM father was a garage mechanic the family came to the UK from Ireland looking for work becoming a pub landlord in North London.

 

[WestLondoner]

JD's wife said that he had tied her hands with speed using only one hand, she said if she didnt struggle during sex he would loose interest.

He also applied tape to the linings of his jacket he used this to cover the mouths of his victims.

One of the items found in the DM's van was a balaclava.
On one occassion JD was arrested near North Weald Station carrying a knife but after questioning was released.

Over the years DM had a variety of jobs
Builder
Taxi cab driver
Chaffuer
Courier

In 1986 he also owned a motorcycle.
They were dubbed the Railway Killers this was most likely because JD worked as a carpenter for British Rail which afforded him free travel on the network. Most of their victims were found near railway stations.
But there is one thing I noticed Ann Lock was a sectretary worked for London Weekend TV before she left work on the evening she was murdered she handed over scripts to Couriers in the foyer. Alsion Day worked for a solicitor did they use a courier too?

Top of the SJL's work diary was an entry with reference to a courier.

This may be a coincidental but worth checking out in my opinion.
JMO

P.s. DM is serving his sentence in the same jail as JC Full Sttton Jail

Absolutely yes, solicitors do use couriers.

This really makes you think. The entries in SJK's diary are distributed pretty much in time order down the page. 'Mr Kipper' is 12.45 (funny time for a genuine appointment) and mid-page, Joanna Yates is 6pm and foot of page, 'Wardo - bike contract' is top of page - hence perhaps first thing? Did anyone turn up at Sturgis that morning to pick up documents, taking the chance to look SJL up and down or perhaps make sure she was in that day? You think this is how victims were identified?

 

[WiseOwl]

JD's wife said that he had tied her hands with speed using only one hand, she said if she didnt struggle during sex he would loose interest.

He also applied tape to the linings of his jacket he used this to cover the mouths of his victims.

One of the items found in the DM's van was a balaclava.
On one occassion JD was arrested near North Weald Station carrying a knife but after questioning was released.

Over the years DM had a variety of jobs
Builder
Plumber
Taxi cab driver
Chaffuer
Courier

In 1986 he also owned a motorcycle.
They were dubbed the Railway Killers this was most likely because JD worked as a carpenter for British Rail which afforded him free travel on the network. Most of their victims were found near railway stations.
But there is one thing I noticed Ann Lock was a sectretary worked for London Weekend TV before she left work on the evening she was murdered she handed over scripts to Couriers in the foyer. Alsion Day worked for a solicitor did they use a courier too?

Top of the SJL's work diary was an entry with reference to a courier.

This may be a coincidental but worth checking out in my opinion.
JMO

P.S. DM is serving his sentence in the same jail as JC Full Sttton Jail

DM father was a garage mechanic the family came to the UK from Ireland looking for work becoming a pub landlord in North London.

That's an interesting theory about the courier.

Is it known if DM was working as a courier in the summer of 1986?

 

[Cluesleuth]

Absolutely yes, solicitors do use couriers.

This really makes you think. The entries in SJK's diary are distributed pretty much in time order down the page. 'Mr Kipper' is 12.45 (funny time for a genuine appointment) and mid-page, Joanna Yates is 6pm and foot of page, 'Wardo - bike contract' is top of page - hence perhaps first thing? Did anyone turn up at Sturgis that morning to pick up documents, taking the chance to look SJL up and down or perhaps make sure she was in that day? You think this is how victims were identified?

I would look at their courier service generally and who worked for them, I wouldnt restrict the search to just the days leading up to SJL's disappearance.

JMO

 

[WestLondoner]

I was reading this in DV over lunch:

On board the ship she’d insist loudly in a plummy Richmond accent that her name was ‘Susannah with an “H” ’. As a result, she quickly became known by staff and crew as simply ‘H’. Her parents had in fact officially registered her birth in Cheltenham in 1961 as ‘Susanna’, without an ‘H’ – a version which, by all accounts, she detested.

Videcette, David. FINDING SUZY: The Hunt for Missing Estate Agent Suzy Lamplugh and 'Mr Kipper' (p. 10). DNA Books. Kindle Edition.

Am I right in thinking that the source for that is almost certainly AS? Especially the 'plummy Richmond accent' detail?

I don't recall anyone else suggesting she was plummy, although her acquaintance BW does have that sort of Diana-yah voice that some southern women affected at the time.

Also, she is said to have been at Sturgis for only 9 months in July, meaning she must have started at the beginning of November 1985. That would mean she had been a (presumably) freelance beautician for 18 months. I'm surprised to learn beauticians made enough money in 1985 to buy two-bedroom flats in Putney. If she paid £60k for it less a 10k deposit from Granny, she'd have needed to be on about 16k a year to get that mortgage. As a point of comparison, I got a graduate job offer from Shell in 1985, and the wedge was less than £10k. I was not aware that beauticians made 60% more than that.

All of which is a way of saying I would like to understand the money situation better.

 

[PPowell]

Absolutely yes, solicitors do use couriers.

This really makes you think. The entries in SJK's diary are distributed pretty much in time order down the page. 'Mr Kipper' is 12.45 (funny time for a genuine appointment) and mid-page, Joanna Yates is 6pm and foot of page, 'Wardo - bike contract' is top of page - hence perhaps first thing? Did anyone turn up at Sturgis that morning to pick up documents, taking the chance to look SJL up and down or perhaps make sure she was in that day? You think this is how victims were identified?

The Channel 5 documentary said Suzy's desk was put in the front window because she was pretty and it would attract customers. Sounds silly to me that a pretty woman might make somebody move house or take out a mortgage, but maybe they were hoping.
Although having her at the front it probably put her in danger, of weirdos making appointments to view houses.

 

[PPowell]

That's an interesting theory about the courier.

Is it known if DM was working as a courier in the summer of 1986?

Who is DM?

 

[Whitehall 1212]

Who is DM?

David Mulcahy. One of the pair of railway killers. The other being John Duffy.

John Duffy and David Mulcahy - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[WestLondoner]

The Channel 5 documentary said Suzy's desk was put in the front window because she was pretty and it would attract customers. Sounds silly to me that a pretty woman might make somebody move house or take out a mortgage, but maybe they were hoping.
Although having her at the front it probably put her in danger, of weirdos making appointments to view houses.

The only source for that window desk story was SJL herself. Nobody at Sturgis has ever confirmed this, and indeed if you look at the office layout, pretty well everyone was in a window - it was a corner plot with a glass shopfront.

I can't recall if I've seen that C5 documentary but if it repeats this claim, without noting that it actually originated wholly with SJL and that nobody else has ever made it, then it undermines the credibility of the programme. It's a better insight into how SJL's mind worked than into that of any abductor.

 

[Cherwell]

The only source for that window desk story was SJL herself. Nobody at Sturgis has ever confirmed this, and indeed if you look at the office layout, pretty well everyone was in a window - it was a corner plot with a glass shopfront.

I can't recall if I've seen that C5 documentary but if it repeats this claim, without noting that it actually originated wholly with SJL and that nobody else has ever made it, then it undermines the credibility of the programme. It's a better insight into how SJL's mind worked than into that of any abductor.

I agree, it sounds like nonsense to me. The windows were filled with property details which largely obscured the interior. You simply wouldn't notice someone at a desk inside unless you made a point of peering in.

 

[Terryb808]

I watched a TV documentary about the victims of Jack the Ripper. The program was hosted by 3 experts, one ex-Scotland Yard detective, one historian and a psychologist.
The difference was that it focused on the victims, their story and the fact that they were human beings.
This is often overlooked, and as soon as any victim has fallen into prostitution, the police and the press loose interest.
If we’re objective this has not changed in the last 100 years or so, and it still happens today.
One obvious fact that came out was that realistically there’s no chance of solving the Jack the Ripper case. Everyone involve are now dead.
It’s 36 years plus since Suzy Lamplugh disappeared and we’re rapidly approaching the same possibility if something doesn’t turn up in the near future.
Suzy’s mother has been criticised for gagging the press, however, given what would have happened had she not done so, you can’t really blame her.
If the press had been allowed to do what they do so well we’d had no Suzy Lamplugh Trust and wouldn’t be talking about her now

 

[WestLondoner]

DL had a preferred narrative - that SJL fell victim to an abductor. This account would in turn mean that SJL's personal life had had no bearing. DL obviously considered her personal life to have been a bit outrageous, and wanted it kept quiet so that nobody could say she had it coming.

I'm far from sure SJL's lifestyle was scandalous in anybody's opinion but DL's. There could possibly be far more we don't know about, but I've not read of SJL doing anything other than enjoying the opportunities that being attractive afforded to her. In the diary extract quoted in the Grauniad article linked above she wrote: “The company puts me in the window desk, as the most attractive female. That’s how it is, the most attractive female on display for any man to see.” She seems delighted with this situation. She was aware she was attractive and enjoyed it. But everyone seems to agree she wanted a career, a family and a nice home, like her mate PSS, like everyone really.

It's interesting that PL confirmed it was the family who insisted the police name JC.

 

[WestLondoner]

One obvious fact that came out was that realistically there’s no chance of solving the Jack the Ripper case.

This is a good point. My preferred suspect for JtR is Charles "Cross" / Lechmere. A man came upon him near what turned out to be the body of Mary Ann Nichols, possibly still breathing. They went for a policeman and when they got back she was bloody and dead. It looks awfully like Lechmere had only just killed her and been interrupted, but brazened it out to the other guy, and said he found her like that.

Unlike most supposed suspects he can be placed in the locale of the killings, and at the actual site and even the time of one. This would make him a suspicious figure today, but 135 years on, there is crucial information we can no longer get, and of course there are arguments why it might not have been him. The best one can manage really is "good suspect but unproven".

SJL case likely heading the same way.

 

[lee sumner]

Mike Barley said I think that nothing is known other than she left the office at 12.40 and her car was found at 22.01. He's obviously not bought into the Mr Kipper narrative.

She might leave the driver's door unlocked if she had pulled up behind another vehicle and got out to speak to its driver - "where are we going? Shall I follow you?" or something of that sort. She may have been expecting to get back in her car within 20 seconds, but never did.

Whatever errand she was on was compressible into a normal lunch-hour absence hence handbag left back at the office.

What torpedoes this theory rather is the seat position. It looks very much like she wasn't driving. You also end up trading one witness sighting for another: if WJ is right, then BW must necessarily have been wrong. Of the two, BW seems to me to be much less likely to be wrong.

its strange how they took WJ statement more seriously than BW, who was the only witness who actually knew suzy.

 

[lee sumner]

I was reading this in DV over lunch:

On board the ship she’d insist loudly in a plummy Richmond accent that her name was ‘Susannah with an “H” ’. As a result, she quickly became known by staff and crew as simply ‘H’. Her parents had in fact officially registered her birth in Cheltenham in 1961 as ‘Susanna’, without an ‘H’ – a version which, by all accounts, she detested.

Videcette, David. FINDING SUZY: The Hunt for Missing Estate Agent Suzy Lamplugh and 'Mr Kipper' (p. 10). DNA Books. Kindle Edition.

Am I right in thinking that the source for that is almost certainly AS? Especially the 'plummy Richmond accent' detail?

I don't recall anyone else suggesting she was plummy, although her acquaintance BW does have that sort of Diana-yah voice that some southern women affected at the time.

Also, she is said to have been at Sturgis for only 9 months in July, meaning she must have started at the beginning of November 1985. That would mean she had been a (presumably) freelance beautician for 18 months. I'm surprised to learn beauticians made enough money in 1985 to buy two-bedroom flats in Putney. If she paid £60k for it less a 10k deposit from Granny, she'd have needed to be on about 16k a year to get that mortgage. As a point of comparison, I got a graduate job offer from Shell in 1985, and the wedge was less than £10k. I was not aware that beauticians made 60% more than that.

All of which is a way of saying I would like to understand the money situation

 

[lee sumner]

suzy started job at sturgis in jan 1985. she had been there 18 months.

 

[PPowell]

In the diary extract quoted in the Grauniad article linked above she wrote: “The company puts me in the window desk, as the most attractive female. That’s how it is, the most attractive female on display for any man to see.” She seems delighted with this situation. She was aware she was attractive and enjoyed it. But everyone seems to agree she wanted a career, a family and a nice home, like her mate PSS, like everyone really.

That's interesting, thanks. I don't know why so many people here try to deny things that have evidence. Maybe they've never read as much into the case as they claim, or maybe they have other motives, such as trying to get people to believe other theories in a book.