UK UK - Suzy Lamplugh, 25, Fulham, 28 Jul 1986 #5

[Pinkizzy]

My guess is that the car wasn't parked there but Suzy was told that it was. I think this case has the hallmarks of an inside job.

Why would it be an inside job?

 

[Eastend Eagle]

Why would it be an inside job?

What else could possibly explain the sheer baffling nature of the case than that a colleague or colleagues of Suzy Lamplugh were involved?

 

[Pinkizzy]

What else could possibly explain the sheer baffling nature of the case than that a colleague or colleagues of Suzy Lamplugh were involved?

Had she overheard a dodgy deal and used the Mr Kipper excuse to visit the police station?

Fulham Police Station in en route to Shorrolds Rd

 

[Eastend Eagle]

If Suzy Lamplugh were abducted from Rostrevor Mews, she could have been abducted into the back of any property from 656-674 Fulham Road including Crocodile Tears. The making of the fake diary entry by one of her colleagues would send the police to Shorrolds Road meaning that the properties backing on to Rostrevor Mews would likely have never been searched or forensicated.

Has it ever been established who was the third person at lunch with KP and MG that day?

 

[WestLondoner]

For the police narrative, the absolutely key bit of 'evidence' that this was Cannan was the sighting of Shakin' Stevens outside 37SR. If that supposed sighting falls away, then they have really very little on him. If 37SR was forensicated and SJL's fingerprints found anywhere inside, we'd know about it, I suggest.

That we do not says to me that nothing was found to corroborate any visit by her. We can be sure nothing was found of JC either, otherwise we wouldn't be hearing nonsense like his supposed prison nickname as the police's 'proof' this was him.

The absence of fingerprints inside 37SR would clearly completely demolish the police's attribution of an SJL sighting to HR. He can't have seen SJL leaving a house she had never entered. This just leaves us to explain the supposedly confirmatory sightings of a Mr Kipper. They are easily dealt with: they have been curated to appear to corroborate HR, but don't. HR describes a smartly-dressed man of about 5'8 to 5'10 in his late twenties, whereas ND described a 6' man in his thirties in a scruffy suit with a broken nose, while a Spanish schoolteacher described a suntanned man in his 40s (when did you ever hear that last one in any anti-Cannan TV documentary? Never). We are shepherded towards assuming that these all confirm each other, but in fact they undermine each other. These are quite obviously three different people IMO, not least because the last two weren't sure when they saw this - it could have been 4pm.

In fact, given that HR later said the pudgy 44-year-old diamond dealer from Antwerp was Mr Kipper he arguably gave two descriptions not one. The later one fits better with the other descriptions, but not with Cannan.

So you're left SJL being lured somewhere and her car then got rid of, or an abduction from elsewhere. The former is DV's theory, of course. He rather over-eggs it in his book by saying her body's still there, which apparently a search has shown not to be the case. This alone doesn't mean it's not what actually happened, although it leaves much unsaid about how this could happen and be hidden.

The alternative, the only one left that I can see, is the abduction from elsewhere, and that clearly could have happened from anywhere. I don't buy the 12.50 sighting outside 123SR because a schoolkid reckoned he saw the same car at noon. If he did, the car seen at 12 and 12.50 were not the one found at 10.01pm. Hence SJL was either abducted in her car almost immediately, or was lured to somewhere and her car was then got rid of, sometime before 5.

 

[WestLondoner]

The making of the fake diary entry by one of her colleagues would send the police to Shorrolds Road

It surely would, but if that was not her writing in her diary, wouldn't someone have noticed? The police searched that diary for the details of her other contacts and the family has seen it too.

 

[RichardKimble]

So were there two separate files sent to the CPS, the first where they said that Cannan and Suzi could not be placed together in 2002, then again where Dickie says in 2003 a judge said that because of the publicity a fair trial was unlikely (Hoisted by their own petard in naming Cannan?) and evidence from the initial investigation was either lost, mislaid or not used, rendering a charge a no go.
Did this evidence point elsewhere calling into question the case against Cannan ?

 

[RichardKimble]

I agree with you on your point that we’ll never really know what happen to SJL.

In the 4 years plus I’ve been seriously looking at this case your point about the police not following other clues became obvious to me.

DV (and I know not everyone is behind him) did look at an alternative and had this been followed up back in the day, who knows what might have happened.

When you “just follow the timeline” as DV says it goes straight to the PoW pub.

However, IMO that’s not where SJL went, it’s far more likely that she met with someone in a private house and never left. The way her car was abandoned points to someone other than SJL leaving it in Stevenage Road.

Again IMO the time her car appears in Stevenage Road is very very important. If as the Mets MB believed it was as WJ said 12.45pm and SJL didn’t drive it there, then her disappearance was the work of at least two perpetrators.
On the other hand (as is generally thought) SJL’s car appears in Stevenage Road between 3.00 & 5.00pm it could be down to a single perpetrator and that’s the reason DV puts a lot of emphasis on WJ being wrong.

I did watch the “In the Footsteps of Killers” and appreciate the work David Wilson does as a criminologist, however, I thought the SJL episode tended to follow the police line and didn’t explore any new lines of enquiry.

By contrast his previous TV documentaries have done so and with impeccable logic.

In conclusion, there are other lines of enquiry which the police and no other TV documentary have ever looked at.

They all follow the JC did it narrative, which is disappointing.

Their docus are hard work, lots of dramatic camera angles on Fox and Wilson , lots of infill, the programme could be condensed into half an hour, but less dramatic for the tv audience.

 

[Eastend Eagle]

It surely would, but if that was not her writing in her diary, wouldn't someone have noticed? The police searched that diary for the details of her other contacts and the family has seen it too.

Is it possible that someone could have practiced Suzy Lamplugh's handwriting style in preparation for making a false diary entry?
I'm interested in the temporary secretary, was it her first day working at Sturgis, how much do we know about her?

 

[WestLondoner]

Why would you bother, though? Wouldn't it be simpler to ring her up and make a "genuinely fake" appointment so that she'd fill in the misleading entry herself?

 

[Eastend Eagle]

Why would you bother, though? Wouldn't it be simpler to ring her up and make a "genuinely fake" appointment so that she'd fill in the misleading entry herself?

I take your point but maybe they couldn't be sure what would be the absolute best time to do the abduction, so they couldn't risk her being out of the office at that time.

 

[WestLondoner]

When you “just follow the timeline” as DV says it goes straight to the PoW pub.

However, IMO that’s not where SJL went, it’s far more likely that she met with someone in a private house and never left. The way her car was abandoned points to someone other than SJL leaving it in Stevenage Road.

Yes, and that private house / other building would presumably have to have been very near wherever she drove to. If she really did drive to Shorrolds, then it would be some other house in Shorrolds. If she drove straight to Stevenage, then somewhere near there.

When satnavs became a thing, I remember reading warnings that you should never put your actual address into it as 'home'. A car thief could steal your car, drive to your exact house knowing you're out, rob your house, and drive off in your car. I have always put in a door number a few houses away, so the satnav gets me to the right place. But anyone who stole the car and tried to get in using the keys will fail because I don't actually live at number 96.

If I wanted to abduct someone, I think I'd do the same: get them to come to number 37 or 123, but get them into number 50 or 150. A miss is as good as mile so far as any police search goes.

I just don't think she was ever that far away.

 

[Eastend Eagle]

Isn't it true that there were no strangers fingerprints found in Suzy Lamplugh's car and that the police said the car hadn't been wiped down?
Also, is it not true that MG visited 123 Stevenage that day? If so, does anyone know when exactly?

 

[WestLondoner]

Isn't it true that there were no strangers fingerprints found in Suzy Lamplugh's car and that the police said the car hadn't been wiped down?

Yes to both AIUI. So either the last driver wore gloves, or was someone who would not be troubled if their prints were found. This means the car could have been driven to 123SR by SJL herself, although the seat position suggests otherwise.

But this is a case where evidence you'd expect to find is not there. You'd expect there to be unidentified fingerprints in the car, but there were none. You'd expect SJL's fingerprints to be found inside 37SR, but there were none (or, if they were, this has never been stated).

Also, is it not true that MG visited 123 Stevenage that day? If so, does anyone know when exactly?

I have not heard that, but I have read - I think in AS - that the owners had always dealt with MG and never with SJL, and that they said they would have been mildly surprised if she had turned up there.

 

[Terryb808]

I’ve been wondering if everyone’s been looking in the wrong place for SJL’s remains.

I recently listened to a BBC podcast which followed a 12 month police investigation into a body found on Saddleworth moor.

The man was very recently deceased and had absolutely no ID at all. The police Sargent heading up the investigation did a first class job. It took him 12 months to solve this case and he needed to work with overseas authorities to do so.

Anyway, what is important is that DNA was unable to identify who the man was, and it’s not the golden key we all like to think it is.

The police apparently had several hundred unidentified bodies with the same dilemma.

This brings me back to SJL, AS’s book highlights that the Met examined the same sort of numbers when trying to find SJL.

Given that DNA back then was not as advanced as today, and trying to identify remains visually is difficult (and not something some relatives can face), could SJL have been one of the several hundred and not identified?

Just a thought,

 

[Terryb808]

I’ve been wondering if everyone’s been looking in the wrong place for SJL’s remains.

I recently listened to a BBC podcast which followed a 12 month police investigation into a body found on Saddleworth moor.

The man was very recently deceased and had absolutely no ID at all. The police Sargent heading up the investigation did a first class job. It took him 12 months to solve this case and he needed to work with overseas authorities to do so.

Anyway, what is important is that DNA was unable to identify who the man was, and it’s not the golden key we all like to think it is.

The police apparently had several hundred unidentified bodies with the same dilemma.

This brings me back to SJL, AS’s book highlights that the Met examined the same sort of numbers when trying to find SJL.

Given that DNA back then was not as advanced as today, and trying to identify remains visually is difficult (and not something some relatives can face), could SJL have been one of the several hundred and not identified?

Just a thought,

 

[RichardKimble]

I’ve been wondering if everyone’s been looking in the wrong place for SJL’s remains.

I recently listened to a BBC podcast which followed a 12 month police investigation into a body found on Saddleworth moor.

The man was very recently deceased and had absolutely no ID at all. The police Sargent heading up the investigation did a first class job. It took him 12 months to solve this case and he needed to work with overseas authorities to do so.

Anyway, what is important is that DNA was unable to identify who the man was, and it’s not the golden key we all like to think it is.

The police apparently had several hundred unidentified bodies with the same dilemma.

This brings me back to SJL, AS’s book highlights that the Met examined the same sort of numbers when trying to find SJL.

Given that DNA back then was not as advanced as today, and trying to identify remains visually is difficult (and not something some relatives can face), could SJL have been one of the several hundred and not identified?

Just a thought,

It was in one of the documentaries that at the time of Suzi's disappearance that there were 800 unidentified bodies in the morgues, a DNA profile was made using DNA from her parents and siblings. Which would only work I guess if DNA could be obtained from a body, so your theory must be a possibility imo.

 

[WestLondoner]

AIUI you can extract DNA from pretty much anything, even 80,000 year old frozen woolly mammoth DNA. The problem is that you need to know whose DNA it matches, and to do that, you need an identified sample of that person or a close relative. SJL's family would certainly have made themselves available to provide such a sample, so if none of the bodies has been matched, it is because none tested was hers.

The 800-odd bodies, 100-odd parts of bodies and 6,000 permanently missing people are IMO where the victims of the UK's unidentified killers, serial or otherwise, are to be found. My guess is she was taken by someone who's never been caught for doing anything similar. If you assume many or most of those 7,000-odd people have all been killed, then the solve rate for homicide starts to resemble that for burglary and car theft.

 

[Pinkizzy]

There was a heavy police presence in London that week - royal wedding the previous weekend and the constant threat from the IRA. I guess SLs body lies near the point of abduction, it would be too risky to transport a dead body out of the city with police patrols everywhere.

 

[Terryb808]

AIUI you can extract DNA from pretty much anything, even 80,000 year old frozen woolly mammoth DNA. The problem is that you need to know whose DNA it matches, and to do that, you need an identified sample of that person or a close relative. SJL's family would certainly have made themselves available to provide such a sample, so if none of the bodies has been matched, it is because none tested was hers.

The 800-odd bodies, 100-odd parts of bodies and 6,000 permanently missing people are IMO where the victims of the UK's unidentified killers, serial or otherwise, are to be found. My guess is she was taken by someone who's never been caught for doing anything similar. If you assume many or most of those 7,000-odd people have all been killed, then the solve rate for homicide starts to resemble that for burglary and car theft.

The BBC podcast was fairly recent compared to when SJL disappeared, the person was identified by other more advanced technology.
IMO it’s entirely possible that the samples from the recovered bodies may have been marginal.