UK UK - Suzy Lamplugh, 25, Fulham, 28 Jul 1986 #5

[Eastend Eagle]

Agree, I don't think she got far from Sturgis.

So this means either Whittingstall Road, Radipole Road or Rostrevor Mews? Rostrevor looks a far narrower and therefore more abductable road to me.
MOO/JMO

 

[Terryb808]

My guess is that she planned to meet someone at 37 SR but didn't reach her destination. This meeting could have been a business deal, a job interview or a house viewing.

This is easily the most logical explanation taking into account both yours & WestLondoners posts.
On this basis you have car jacking when she reached her car in Whittingstall Road or never left the PoW after popping in to pick up her things.

 

[Cluesleuth]

My guess is that she planned to meet someone at 37 SR but didn't reach her destination. This meeting could have been a business deal, a job interview or a house viewing.

Have you considered that the man known as 'Kipper' could also have been the subject of an abduction?

Just who the person/s were who made the appointment is unclear.

The marital status of the male known as Kipper is unknown

Could he have been an adulterer and Kipper was merely the name given to SJL by the person/s who were planning to teach a couple known to be having an affair a lesson or two?

In his original statement HR said he saw a 'struggle'.
MG appeared to have interpreted this the struggle involved SL but was it? no details were given of who the struggle was between.

Could the female seen with the male at 37 Shorrolds by the 2 witnesses be someone other than SJL and they were waiting to intercept the male known as Kipper.

SL having already been intercepted on route or at her parked car.

Were the male and female part of the ruse?
JMO

 

[shadwell]

Have you considered that the man known as 'Kipper' could also have been the subject of an abduction?

Just who the person/s were who made the appointment is unclear.

The marital status of the male known as Kipper is unknown

Could he have been an adulterer and Kipper was merely the name given to SJL by the person/s who were planning to teach a couple known to be having an affair a lesson or two?

In his original statement HR said he saw a 'struggle'.
MG appeared to have interpreted this the struggle involved SL but was it? no details were given of who the struggle was between.

Could the female seen with the male at 37 Shorrolds by the 2 witnesses be someone other than SJL and they were waiting to intercept the male known as Kipper.

SL having already been intercepted on route or at her parked car.

Were the male and female part of the ruse?
JMO

Did HR describe a struggle? IMO this was an embellishment on the part of MG when he felt police had failed to respond with sufficient urgency to his initial phone call that evening. If not, why didn’t he mention it straight away?

 

[Eastend Eagle]

Did HR describe a struggle? IMO this was an embellishment on the part of MG when he felt police had failed to respond with sufficient urgency to his initial phone call that evening. If not, why didn’t he mention it straight away?

Yes, HR seems somewhat flaky and probably had words put into his mouth by A N OTHER.

JMO

 

[Cluesleuth]

Did HR describe a struggle? IMO this was an embellishment on the part of MG when he felt police had failed to respond with sufficient urgency to his initial phone call that evening. If not, why didn’t he mention it straight away?

As I understand it HR did witness a struggle

The embellishment by MG you mention appears on pg 10 of as book
An officer phoned MG back at 6.55 for more details. He rocounted to the police and outline of what had happened, adding that HR now thought the couple had been arguing and was saying that the woman was bundled into a car by the man. This later turned put to b an exaggeration, but it was emough to make the police act immediately

 

[Cluesleuth]

Yes, HR seems somewhat flaky and probably had words put into his mouth by A N OTHER.

JMO

Most likely MG was in a bit of a panic by then.
JMO

 

[Terryb808]

Yes, HR seems somewhat flaky and probably had words put into his mouth by A N OTHER.

JMO

HR’s account seems to have been embellished by the influence of others. Look at this from the point of view of it being a series of ordinary events (which it would have been until the police got involved).
How much notice would you take of people standing or passing by your house.
Unless something really interesting happened, not that much I’d say.
It’s possible MG was an influencer, and certainly DL if she visited him, both would want him to help push the Mr Kipper story.
This puts the HR account into question, and IMO the subsequent other sightings of Mr Kipper.
With this in mind everyone has been looking in the wrong place, SJL never got to Shorrolds Road, so we need to look elsewhere.

 

[EddietheEagle]

As I understand it HR did witness a struggle

The embellishment by MG you mention appears on pg 10 of as book
An officer phoned MG back at 6.55 for more details. He rocounted to the police and outline of what had happened, adding that HR now thought the couple had been arguing and was saying that the woman was bundled into a car by the man. This later turned put to b an exaggeration, but it was emough to make the police act immediately

SL and Mr Kipper were sighted outside 37 Shorrolds Rd, within a narrow time frame by several witnesses whose recollections, taken together, are strongly corroborative.

The alleged bundling of SL into a car by Mr Kipper outside 37 Shorrolds Rd as witnessed by HR, could be explained by the actions of an enthusiastic, over-attentive, paramour - Mr Kipper - keen to whisk SL away, possibly back to Stevenage Rd (where SL's Fiesta had been parked earlier) and/or Bishops Park for a glass of bubbly. No one can say. It's largely speculation from that point although, as we know, there were later, less secure sightings, putting her in the general area of Bishops Park/Stevenage Rd/Fulham Palace Rd.

It's interesting to note that Mike Barley of the investigation team is on record as believing SL drove directly to Stevenage Rd from Sturgis. By his account, presumably, she was picked up from there and taken to Shorrolds Rd, possibly for a genuine viewing or perhaps more likely, to flesh out her cover story for meeting up with Mr Kipper for other reasons. Jim Dickie, contrarily, states that he believes the reverse to be true and that she drove to Shorrolds Rd from her office. Either way, the police have SL firmly placed in Shorrolds Rd and I've yet to hear any credible hypothesis that she was abducted the moment she left Sturgis.

 

[Pinkizzy]

SJL must have been aware of her safety with clients. Why would she write a bogus address if she was meeting a stranger?

 

[Terryb808]

SL and Mr Kipper were sighted outside 37 Shorrolds Rd, within a narrow time frame by several witnesses whose recollections, taken together, are strongly corroborative.

The alleged bundling of SL into a car by Mr Kipper outside 37 Shorrolds Rd as witnessed by HR, could be explained by the actions of an enthusiastic, over-attentive, paramour - Mr Kipper - keen to whisk SL away, possibly back to Stevenage Rd (where SL's Fiesta had been parked earlier) and/or Bishops Park for a glass of bubbly. No one can say. It's largely speculation from that point although, as we know, there were later, less secure sightings, putting her in the general area of Bishops Park/Stevenage Rd/Fulham Palace Rd.

It's interesting to note that Mike Barley of the investigation team is on record as believing SL drove directly to Stevenage Rd from Sturgis. By his account, presumably, she was picked up from there and taken to Shorrolds Rd, possibly for a genuine viewing or perhaps more likely, to flesh out her cover story for meeting up with Mr Kipper for other reasons. Jim Dickie, contrarily, states that he believes the reverse to be true and that she drove to Shorrolds Rd from her office. Either way, the police have SL firmly placed in Shorrolds Rd and I've yet to hear any credible hypothesis that she was abducted the moment she left Sturgis.

It makes no sence to drive directly to Stevenage Road, leave your car and then go to Shorrolds Road with a client or prospective employer to make sure of an alibi.
Who is going to notice (if SJL hadn’t disappeared) that she never went to Shorrolds Road.
She’s not going to leave her car in Stevenage Road with her purse and money in an unlocked state.
SJL’s car was abandoned by a perpetrator in Stevenage Road in a hurry.
For Mike Barley to be correct (and FWIW) I think he’s a good officer, SJL was kidnapped/ abducted shortly after leaving the Sturgis office and a perpetrator dumped her car almost immediately.
Apart from HR no one in Shorrolds Road came forward to say they say anything unusual the day SJL disappeared, and those that did, came forward after the police appeal.
That effectively formed all the differing descriptions of the mythical Mr Kipper.

 

[Terryb808]

SJL must have been aware of her safety with clients. Why would she write a bogus address if she was meeting a stranger?

Good point, that’s why DV’s narrative works, she wasn’t meeting anyone in his narrative, just going to the PoW to collect her lost items.

So she thought she was safe. I don’t think she’d have been save even if the name had been more realistic.

Just look at what happened to Stephanie Slatter, and this was after SJL and the work that the Suzy Lamplugh Trust were doing.

 

[EddietheEagle]

SJL must have been aware of her safety with clients. Why would she write a bogus address if she was meeting a stranger?

Who said she was meeting a stranger? The indicative evidence is that she and Mr Kipper were already known to each other and I believe that is the police view (Jim Dickie).

 

[Pinkizzy]

Who said she was meeting a stranger? The indicative evidence is that she and Mr Kipper were already known to each other and I believe that is the police view (Jim Dickie).

Why would she write a bogus address?

 

[Terryb808]

Why would she write a bogus address?

I think DV has thought this through and he concluded that she picked Shorrolds Road because it had just come on the market.

Also that Mr Kipper related to a person she knew, and used it because it was the first thought when making up the fake viewing.

This is how he concluded that her true destination was the PoW pub. When you follow SJL’s timeline and look at it simplistically it makes sense.

What doesn’t fit is the fact that she could have collected her items anytime after work. She’d have needed a very compelling reason to need her diary back quickly to go through the whole process of fake appointments.

On face value and with access to her diary we can’t conclude that she needed it back that desperately.

One thing is for sure and that’s whoever made her disappear was either a pro or a very lucky individual.

 

[EddietheEagle]

Why would she write a bogus address?

I don't think she did write a bogus address. The indications are that she did go there. I think, however, you have latched onto one aspect of why this case has become so compelling. The police have a theory the parties were already acquainted and a number of scenarios can be postulated within that context regarding the extent of the relationship. It could be the case that the two spoke on the morning either to confirm or alter the arrangements where to meet. There are ostensibly, no 'phone records to assist which I find rather amazing. We just don't know.

One of the reasons I find the AS book a somewhat frustrating read is that he alludes to the wider parameters of SL's life without really providing any information pertinent to the case. His book was published before JC had come onto the scene as a serious suspect so there's nothing really putting the two together at that point. I think it entirely feasible that JC was onto SL while he was still at the hostel because he was able to slip out so much. He may too have already been stoking the fires with his Bristol solicitor with weekend trips there as well. That would help to explain the mystery man from Bristol/the West Country who SL's uncle alluded to.

 

[Terryb808]

I don't think she did write a bogus address. The indications are that she did go there. I think, however, you have latched onto one aspect of why this case has become so compelling. The police have a theory the parties were already acquainted and a number of scenarios can be postulated within that context regarding the extent of the relationship. It could be the case that the two spoke on the morning either to confirm or alter the arrangements where to meet. There are ostensibly, no 'phone records to assist which I find rather amazing. We just don't know.

One of the reasons I find the AS book a somewhat frustrating read is that he alludes to the wider parameters of SL's life without really providing any information pertinent to the case. His book was published before JC had come onto the scene as a serious suspect so there's nothing really putting the two together at that point. I think it entirely feasible that JC was onto SL while he was still at the hostel because he was able to slip out so much. He may too have already been stoking the fires with his Bristol solicitor with weekend trips there as well. That would help to explain the mystery man from Bristol/the West Country who SL's uncle alluded to.

It’s a strange place to arrange to meet, yes use it as a bogus appointment, but if you know the person you’re meeting, there’s no need to actually meet them there.
At that time of day you could meet in a pub or restaurant, or Bishops Park, that makes far more sense.
Whoever made SJL disappear either planned it very well, or just got lucky.
If you’re one of the many that believe JC murdered Sandra Court, then just look at what he did.
He made no effort to hide the body and then left a trail of evidence towards London.
JC is no master criminal, he’s a very inept one and unless he just got lucky would not have disposed of SJL and left no trace.
If you look at the Railway Killers, they tried and failed to hide the victims remains, it’s just not that easy when it’s a spontaneous event.
That goes for ex-boyfriends with a grudge at being played and dumped, to get away with it they would have to plan everything in detail.
IMO apart from DV’s theory the perpetrator planned her disappearance in detail.

 

[RichardKimble]

Who issued a photofit of Mr Kipper ,who identified any male individual as Mr Kipper, did Mr Kipper introduce himself to any one ? there is talk of SJL seen arguing with Mr Kipper, a struggle with this individual. We know of a diary entry alluding to a name, but is he real ? DV is of an opinion that's all he is, an entry in a diary.

 

[Cluesleuth]

Who issued a photofit of Mr Kipper ,who identified any male individual as Mr Kipper, did Mr Kipper introduce himself to any one ? there is talk of SJL seen arguing with Mr Kipper, a struggle with this individual. We know of a diary entry alluding to a name, but is he real ? DV is of an opinion that's all he is, an entry in a diary.

my thoughts are that Kipper was used merely to relate to someone but is not their true name

For instance 'Operation Kipper' a criminal act to cause physical harm to 1 or 2 people, to be carried out by people on behalf of another for money or other material gain.

just my opinion

 

[EddietheEagle]

It’s a strange place to arrange to meet, yes use it as a bogus appointment, but if you know the person you’re meeting, there’s no need to actually meet them there.
At that time of day you could meet in a pub or restaurant, or Bishops Park, that makes far more sense.
Whoever made SJL disappear either planned it very well, or just got lucky.
If you’re one of the many that believe JC murdered Sandra Court, then just look at what he did.
He made no effort to hide the body and then left a trail of evidence towards London.
JC is no master criminal, he’s a very inept one and unless he just got lucky would not have disposed of SJL and left no trace.
If you look at the Railway Killers, they tried and failed to hide the victims remains, it’s just not that easy when it’s a spontaneous event.
That goes for ex-boyfriends with a grudge at being played and dumped, to get away with it they would have to plan everything in detail.
IMO apart from DV’s theory the perpetrator planned her disappearance in detail.

A house on the market is not a strange place to meet if you're an estate agent. We don't know the nature of any pre-existing relationship and, therefore, the exact reason why Shorrolds Rd was chosen. JC is/was a very plausible individual. Another look at his dating video will show you that, something, incidentally, he has apparently railed against in his dislike of having been exposed for the liar and confabulator he is. He may have convinced SL that he was indeed looking for a London property. We don't know.

Assuming he had killed Sandra Court earlier, then he would have learned from that episode and applied that. However, every murder has its own unique aspects. Sandra Court's death may have been an entirely opportunistic affair: having noticed her on the street while driving, he seized his chance, stopped and offered her a lift. With SL, the indications are that they may have known each other. He may, therefore, have had less harmful intentions to begin with. He claims he's had affairs with dozens of women and nearly all of those he presumably didn't harm.

I agree, the murder of Sandra Court looks clumsy in the way evidence was left lying about, Shirley Banks too for that matter. It's a pertinent question to ask why the disappearance of SL left so few clues. Whitehall 1212, where are you?