UK UK - Suzy Lamplugh, 25, Fulham, 28 Jul 1986 #5

[WestLondoner]

HR seen SLP outside 37 shorrolds rd with mr kipper. this sighting lines up with her diary entry. this is the evidence, yet DV chooses to dismiss the evidence. HR is the most important witness because he gave his statement the same day, even though later he did add things in.

AFAIK there is no evidence from fingerprints of SJL having been inside 37SR.

If there was a viewing, conceivably the man accompanying her might have contrived not to touch anything, so as to leave no sign of his having been there. But then it would have been SJL who had to touch things to conduct a viewing: the garden gate, the front door, door handles, cupboards, light switches, banisters, and so on.

If traces of this kind were in evidence, then it's pretty much beyond doubt that she did go there. The house had not been on the market so long that she'd have been likely to have been round it before, so the Monday visit looks like the occasion when they were left. But we never hear about her prints having been found. Apparently, the totality of the evidence that she was ever there is 100% HR's sighting.

For me this is an even more elementary reason to doubt the assumption she went there. Even if one accepts she had the keys, she can't have gone inside without leaving traces of this kind. If there are none, then she never went inside 37SR, nor can she have left; in which case HR can't have seen or heard her leaving, either.

I suspect two possible explanations. One, the house was fingerprinted and there was no sign of her, so this is not talked about as too awkward for the Kipper narrative. Two, the house was not fingerprinted because the HR account was accepted as evidence enough that she went there, which is now embarrassing. You'd think someone would have been interested in what other fingerprints could be found inside, in case any were those of Mr Kipper, but there it is.

The issue may be that according to DI Johnstone, while all this was happening re SJL, he was about to stage a 5AM raid on Tuesday on a cement works nearby that yielded 38 arrests and kept him busy for the rest of the week. This was more of a priority than SJL. He and Mike Barley were both recent transfers from uniformed duty and Mike Barley had never run an inciodent room before. As a result, things were probably forgotten and mistakes made.

 

[Terryb808]

Given that HR said that SJL & Kipper left 37 SR (door closing), it’s totally unforgivable not to have completed a forensic examination and fingerprinted the place.

At the time it was their only lead and a set of fingerprints from a known criminal (or not known) could have become vital evidence.

On this basis IMO the above happened and they found no trace of SJL or Kipper.

However, they still appear to have pursued the kipper narrative regardless.

 

[WestLondoner]

Yep. The alternative and unadmitted timeline of the c. 24 hours between lunchtime on 28/7/86 and the 2pm press conference the next day perhaps looked like this (entirely my own opinion obvs).

- 12.40pm: SJL goes somewhere, not a viewing, but puts a phoney entry in the diary to justify her absence (necessary because her leaving the office meant someone else could not)

- 2.45pm she is seen in the FPR

- 3pm MG wonders why she's not back from lunch and goes to 37SR with a colleague. They don't go inside, MG assuming there would be no keys, but try to see inside.

- 4pm someone tall dumps her car outside 123SR. MG phones DL to ask her if she knows where SJL might be.

- 6.45 MG calls the police to report SJL's absence. DCs Mick Jones and Steve Hill (MJ and SH) are on duty. Either they go to see MG, or he goes to Fulham police station. Then they see parents, and before...

- 10pm MJ and SH break into her flat. The time is reliable because they remember hearing about finding the car on the way back from this visit.

They do not go to 37SR, assuming MG already has. It is unclear if anybody searched 37SR that day.

- 5AM: In his capacity as officer working in the Area Major Investigation Pool (AMIP) DI Peter Johnstone (PJ) raids the cement factory and makes 38 arrests

- 7AM: Nick Carter is put in charge. He is to be assisted by AMIP detective PJ.

- 10AM: a police officer is stationed outside 37SR while it is forensicated. They entered using keys.

- 2pm: before the results of the forensicating of 37SR are known, police press conference asserts that SJL met Mr Kipper there.

 

[Salah11]

The problem is somebody was at SR so why did nobody come forward if it wasn’t Suzy?

This case was all over the news there is simply no explanation to explain why a couple was seen at the time Suzy was supposed to do a viewing and yet this mystery couple never came forward.


Moo

 

[RichardKimble]

As it been considered that SJL arrived to the door of 37, whoever she was meeting was on the doorstep she attempted to open the door but was hurried away, hence no forensics inside, ties in with HR hearing the door shut.

 

[WestLondoner]

The problem is somebody was at SR so why did nobody come forward if it wasn’t Suzy?

This case was all over the news there is simply no explanation to explain why a couple was seen at the time Suzy was supposed to do a viewing and yet this mystery couple never came forward.


Moo

One possible couple are MG and either of two female co-workers at Sturgis. IIRC (I don;t have AS to hand) he made two visits, HR then remembering the first visit and describing it to MG on the second. MG looks a lot like Mr Kipper IMO.

The other complicating factor is there were lots of people seen in SR, but you only hear about the supposed one and only Mr Kipper, not least because he's the best for Cannan. If you take all the sightings, Kipper appears to have been a tall short man in a smart scruffy suit with a pale suntanned face and two noses, one broken and one not.

It's unclear what reliance can be placed on ND's sighting as he was a convicted criminal.

 

[Salah11]

One possible couple are MG and either of two female co-workers at Sturgis. IIRC (I don;t have AS to hand) he made two visits, HR then remembering the first visit and describing it to MG on the second. MG looks a lot like Mr Kipper IMO.

The other complicating factor is there were lots of people seen in SR, but you only hear about the supposed one and only Mr Kipper, not least because he's the best for Cannan. If you take all the sightings, Kipper appears to have been a tall short man in a smart scruffy suit with a pale suntanned face and two noses, one broken and one not.

It's unclear what reliance can be placed on ND's sighting as he was a convicted criminal.

Was MG not at Lunch when that first sighting happened at SR?

 

[WestLondoner]

Was MG not at Lunch when that first sighting happened at SR?

Depends how reliable you think HR is.

 

[RichardKimble]

One possible couple are MG and either of two female co-workers at Sturgis. IIRC (I don;t have AS to hand) he made two visits, HR then remembering the first visit and describing it to MG on the second. MG looks a lot like Mr Kipper IMO.

The other complicating factor is there were lots of people seen in SR, but you only hear about the supposed one and only Mr Kipper, not least because he's the best for Cannan. If you take all the sightings, Kipper appears to have been a tall short man in a smart scruffy suit with a pale suntanned face and two noses, one broken and one not.

It's unclear what reliance can be placed on ND's sighting as he was a convicted criminal.

BIB, with the recent clearing and subsequent quashing of the conviction of AM because of in part two witness were from a criminal background and this was not given to the defence, any trial going forward would be amiss not to bear this in mind.

 

[WestLondoner]

To be clear, it does seem likely that HR saw a couple outside the house. It would be a jaw-dropping clanger if MG went with a female colleague, went back with a male one, met HR and HR then related MG's own previous visit to him without anyone realising that this what was happening. Impossible? probably not, but still unlikely. So one assumes instead that there was a sighting, but it's when you dig into it a bit that the oddities start to emerge.

First, as DV notes and many including DI Johnstone concede, HR did not properly see or ID the woman, only the man. The police said it was SJL, not HR.

Second, this sighting of HR was not - as is often claimed - corroborated by other witnesses; not immediately. Nobody else came forward for a week, so that on Monday 4th the first reconstruction was staged and broadcast, in an effort to jog memories. What was reconstructed was what the police had already decided to have happened. Only when this had gone out did others start to come forward, and those who came forward all broadly agreed with...what they'd seen on TV.

Third, this effort also produced discrepant sightings - men in sharp suits and in scruffy suits, men with a sun tan and without, men with long hair and short, men with a broken nose and without. Some of these were at 123SR and were more or less discarded.

Fourth, HR's account changed, both immediately and later. First he saw her being bundled into a vehicle, then he didn't. At the time Mr Kipper was 25 to 30 and handsome but he later ID'd a nondescript man of 44 as Mr Kipper.

Fifth, the point about fingerprints just discussed. It seems the house was forensicated the next morning; so the police must have known who went inside and if SJL was among them. If she did not, then HR's description, with its detail about a door slamming, falls apart.

Sixth is DV's line of argument that if the keys were still in the office SJL hadn't taken them.

I really don't envy the police their job of trying to make sense of all of that. It is noticeable though that the only version of the Shorrolds visit one ever hears or reads of is the one featuring the Cannan lookalike outside; you never hear of the non-lookalikes also seen, nor whether there is any other evidence that she actually went there.

 

[RichardKimble]

JD is convinced JC is guilty of killing SjL, did he ever say from where he thought JC abducted or persuaded SL to go with him.

 

[Terryb808]

JD is convinced JC is guilty of killing SjL, did he ever say from where he thought JC abducted or persuaded SL to go with him.

I can’t recall him ever putting his narrative forward, but I stand corrected if someone can add links to it.
To be fair JD doesn’t have the detailed knowledge that we on this forum have. You only have to watch him on YouTube to see this.
As far as I know he dislikes armchair detectives, but, his lack of detailed knowledge doesn’t show him in a good light.

There are many SJL narratives, all possible, but few that make sense when looked at in detail.
Some try to include all the witness accounts into a workable narrative (IMO) this is a mistake.
You need to take the most reliable witness statements and base your conclusions on these.

What is surprising is that no one at the time or today takes BW’s sighting on FPR seriously.
She is the only witness who actually knew SJL, and if you listen carefully to what she said happened, it fits with the perpetrator (JC or A N Other) realising he’s been spotted.
Again IMO this is the sole reason SJL’s car was abandoned in Fulham and not left just anywhere.
If this is a good narrative the perpetrator either planned SJL’s demise or decided it during their time together on that Monday lunchtime.
JC may have been smart enough to do this, maybe he was more careful as he’d just got out of jail.
What’s everyone else’s view?

 

[WestLondoner]

Well, the first police inquiry in 1986-87 demonstrably failed entirely. As MB said at the time, all they know is that SJL left the office at 12.40 and her car was found at 10pm, i.e. the investigation elicited nothing, and never identified any suspect.

DV's book sheds much light on this. The theory he advances, itself however undermined by the search of the pub that has apparently now taken place, lives in the gaps in that 1986 investigation, so to speak.

From 1989, press speculation - and some remarks made by Cannan in interviews - put him in the frame for this. Nothing more seems to have happened until 1999 / 2000, when pressure from the family resulted in a reinvestigation.

In DV's book, JD says that in this investigation they looked at the same people plus Cannan, eliminated everyone again, and this left Cannan. This summary by JD may be a bit economical with the actualité. There have been several appeals for new witnesses by the police and the case against Cannan usually made in public is based, preposterously, on these. We had the bloke who remembered seeing Cannan looking in Sturgis' window 14 years ago, the jogger who saw a BMW 14 years ago, the ex colleagues who claimed they knew where Cannan went drinking 14 years ago, and so on.

None of these accounts is even remotely persuasive, but the reason the police cite them may be because they align with the account, also given in 1999/2000, of another witness, Taggart, that they do find persuasive. They can't really say out loud that the reason they think Cannan dunnit is because Taggart said so. Why would anyone believe such a snitch? Instead they seek others, more plausible, to corroborate him.

Taggart somehow knew enough about Cannan's movements to put him in the frame for Monday 28th July 1986, yet not enough to realise that Cannan was a murderous rapist. So he both did and did not know what Cannan was up to. My suspicion about Taggart is thus that he came forward with this stuff because he'd read about Cannan in the papers, needed a police favour, and fabricated some interesting stuff (Cannan's on a whole-of-life term already anyway so where's the harm?) to get it. He does not appear to have come up with anything of tangible value, like, where SJL was taken and where her body is, that would prove beyond doubt he knew something.

The police believe him, but he's given them nothing, so they need others to fill in the gaps; hence the witnesses with sudden perfect recall of what they saw 14 years before.

Could Cannan have done it? Sure. Could only Cannan have done it? Not sure.

 

[Terryb808]

Can’t fault the logic, if JT was an accomplice there’s no way he’s going to implicate himself by revealing anything that put him equally in the frame.

DV being an ex Met man and now an author has put his case forward, with now (it appears) only the embankment behind the PoW to be searched.

JD on the other hand (as far as I know) hasn’t put any narrative forward apart from the statement that he believes JC is guilty.

He’s now longer a Met officer so there’s no reason why he couldn’t do as DV has and reveal why he’s so confident JC is guilty.
Let’s face it JC is never going to be charged anyway.

 

[WestLondoner]

JC's only in his late 60s, but given his health issues, it's unlikely he'll live a lot longer - in or out of jail. At the point he drops unlamented off his perch, it's possible the police may divulge what really makes them think JC did this, now that there's no longer a prosecution this might jeopardise. They've actually made it impossible for him to obtain a fair trial now anyway, though, so maybe not. The investigation could still technically be open even post-JC's demise, meaning it can't be FOIAed.

My guess as above is that their case is based on intelligence from a now-deceased career-criminal snitch. Taggart was dishonest his whole life long. It would probably be easy for a defence counsel to undermine his tale in court as self-serving, obtained from newspapers, edited to avoid self-incrimination thus not candid or complete, and hence unreliable. What the police seem to have emphasised to the various documentary makers and journalists over the years is the circumstantial stuff they've got hold of that points to Cannan. All of this stops short of being evidence and much overlooks points like the BW sighting (impossible if she was in JC's supposed BMW at the time), and the odd silence on whether her fingerprints were inside 37SR.

For my money the car movements do suggest two people involved. If one was JC then the other was JT. If so, he is not to be relied on.

 

[RichardKimble]

If he were to leave this mortal coil I don't think it'll be revealed what made him prime suspect lest evidence comes to light some one else was responsible, it was said R Black was going to be charged over the G Tate case, the evidence was never revealed to which led the D@C police to that stance.

 

[Salah11]

So the pub has been searched and nothing found?

 

[Terryb808]

So the pub has been searched and nothing found?

Some time back the Lolly Truecrime blog posted that the cellar had been searched.
As far as I know there’s no indication which confirmed how detailed the search was and if forensic teams had attended.

 

[Terryb808]

Suzy Lamplugh — Update

A little item of news has come to my attention which I feel needs to be shared with you all regarding the long-running Missing Estate…

lolly-truecrime.medium.com

Link to above comment.

 

[Salah11]

Suzy Lamplugh — Update

A little item of news has come to my attention which I feel needs to be shared with you all regarding the long-running Missing Estate…

lolly-truecrime.medium.com

Link to above comment.

Thank you for this update. It’s a catch 22 as I never believed she was there but on the other hand it would of been nice to be able to solve it.