UK UK - Suzy Lamplugh, 25, Fulham, 28 Jul 1986 #7

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  • #921
I don't feel AL had anything to do with things really...but yet..I find his story on the days before the disappearance odd nonetheless. So he reckons the items were lost or stolen on the Friday evening at Mossops? How do
items lost or stolen turn up in the exact same place, pretty much, as they went missing? How does one "lose" something as apparently important as a personal diary full of contacts?

So AL was not at Saturday's party in Dorking and sjl is photographed on someone else's knee. He goes to Worthing apart from Sjl and they return home separately. Yet according to him he has a call with sjl at 10pm yet he's had all day to speak to her. It looks as though he's been dumped - was this a final, confirmatory call? The only people who can corroborate this are AL and sjl herself. Yet a few days later he's being trotted out as sjl's "boyfriend" by the Lamplughs at that press conference. Is he dumped, or is he not?
Great summary! and agree totally - but like you I think its odd - maybe he just went along with being trotted out as the boyfriend as it was his best course of action - if he had refused to attend the press events and play the game (so to speak) would have looked odd I suppose - but the other thing was in DV's book he agreed to be interviewed by DV. and then stormed out of the interview - DV said in all his years of policing and doing interviews he has never witnessed anything like that and still cant rationalise it - AL's parting comments were - you will never find her - why would he storm off and say something like that? ...incidents like this are most often committed by someone close or family and often in a fit of rage or split second of anger etc - jumping on the press bandwagon with DL & PL would have been an ideal cover - he could hardly say - I'm not having anything to do with this as we just had a big row and split up.... that would have looked odd! the whole diary loss story seems odd too - when MG and NH were interviewed by DV - they said she had never mentioned a missing diary or chequebook all of Monday morning at all ( despite contrary narratives)
 
  • #922
The notion of SJL having a loving stable boyfriend may have been for the sake of news and publicity, to indicate that she hadn't run off to Gretna Green with a lover or some sort of flighty escapade. An attempt to emphasise the gravity of the situation perhaps? JMO
 
  • #923
Fca’s
Comment on thread 1
Yes, the 1988 book said that Suzy last spoke to the acting landlord's wife immediately before she left the office, so after 12 noon when other couple had left. but Clive now says 'she wasn't there, she had nothing to do with it'. Pub may have stayed closed all day.

My question to cv is “had nothing to do with what cv????
It is perhaps interesting that the permanent landlord and wife didn't leave the POW until the Monday. Maybe it was he who directed the temporary one into the discovery of SL's belongings on the Sunday night and then essentially controlled the entire subsequent narrative around the POW and SL's belongings JMO
 
  • #924
The notion of SJL having a loving stable boyfriend may have been for the sake of news and publicity, to indicate that she hadn't run off to Gretna Green with a lover or some sort of flighty escapade. An attempt to emphasise the gravity of the situation perhaps? JMO

I agree. The Lamplughs attempting to control the narrative, even at this early stage in the investigation.
 
  • #925
The Lamplughs did have a lot of influence, but I doubt if the police were ever going to portray Suzy as a woman with lots of different lovers. Wouldn't they have lost all public sympathy?
 
  • #926
I don't feel AL had anything to do with things really...but yet..I find his story on the days before the disappearance odd nonetheless. So he reckons the items were lost or stolen on the Friday evening at Mossops? How do
items lost or stolen turn up in the exact same place, pretty much, as they went missing? How does one "lose" something as apparently important as a personal diary full of contacts?

So AL was not at Saturday's party in Dorking and sjl is photographed on someone else's knee. He goes to Worthing apart from Sjl and they return home separately. Yet according to him he has a call with sjl at 10pm yet he's had all day to speak to her. It looks as though he's been dumped - was this a final, confirmatory call? The only people who can corroborate this are AL and sjl herself. Yet a few days later he's being trotted out as sjl's "boyfriend" by the Lamplughs at that press conference. Is he dumped, or is he not?
I reckon SL's belongings were lifted on the Sunday then placed outside the POW for CV to discover MOO
 
  • #927
The handbrake being off would fit with the car being rolled back into the road.
And the smudged fingerprint on the rearview mirror would fit with it being rolled backwards onto the road.
If SL's car was rolled back into the road from the Mahons property then presumably the smudged partial palmprint found on the rearview mirror must belong to either them or an associate of theirs MOO
 
  • #928
why would SL choose to disappear. she was not on drugs or an alcoholic, and she did not suffer from any mental illness. she appeared to be happy in her job as an estate agent. flat unsold at the time. does not make sense.
 
  • #929
why would SL choose to disappear. she was not on drugs or an alcoholic, and she did not suffer from any mental illness. she appeared to be happy in her job as an estate agent. flat unsold at the time. does not make sense.
I agree it doesn't seem to make sense but being on drugs, an alcoholic or having a mental illness would not make you more likely to want to disappear and start a new life - I think anyone one with those issues would be highly unlikely to be in the mindset to do it , I think people who planned it and executed it would be very calculated, well organised ,of very sound mind and not have any addictions - but they would have secrets, another side to their life that may be unknown to others..even their close family IMO
 
  • #930
I reckon SL's belongings were lifted on the Sunday then placed outside the POW for CV to discover MOO
... not by AL but A N Other on the Worthing trip MOO
 
  • #931
I agree it doesn't seem to make sense but being on drugs, an alcoholic or having a mental illness would not make you more likely to want to disappear and start a new life - I think anyone one with those issues would be highly unlikely to be in the mindset to do it , I think people who planned it and executed it would be very calculated, well organised ,of very sound mind and not have any addictions - but they would have secrets, another side to their life that may be unknown to others..even their close family IMO
SL was a sloane raanger, and sloanes love the london lifesyle. its there world. SL had ambitions to better herself finacially etc. like many other sloanes they want a career that will take them far, so i doubt SL would fake her own disappearance it does not fit her profile.
 
  • #932
I think it is now apparent what happened in this case.
The office junior took SL's car out that morning and it was left out of public view near to where it was eventually found.
When SL left the office at lunchtime she was told it was parked in the road running behind the Crocodile Tears wine bar and it was from here that she was abducted.
The Mr Kipper diary entry was done by the apparently untraceable temporary secretary sending the police to Shorrolds Road.
If the car was indeed originally parked inside the gate outside of which it was later found it would therefore have been rolled out onto the street later that day thereby sending the police to Stevenage Road.
SL's belongings would have been lifted during her Sunday trip to Worthing and then placed outside the POW pub for the temporary landlord to discover thus creating the narrative around the pub.
If the Shorrolds, Stevenage and POW pub narratives had never existed where would police have looked for SL? The last definitive sighting of her would have been leaving Sturgis that lunchtime. These 3 narratives meant that the immediate vicinity of Sturgis would never have been seriously considered as from where SL was abducted.
MOO / JMO
 
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  • #933
I don't think the police would have portrayed Sjl as a woman of many lovers unless it was necessary to put this kind of information into the public domain. However the Lamplughs had form for trying to control the press narrative too. If the papers had got hold of something salacious about sjl's life and printed it, it would have been disastrous for the image of sjl and the members of the Lamplugh family. They were strict Methodists, after all. They complained about AS's book and the portrayal of sjl, even though they'd originally endorsed it. They obtained the advice of the solicitor-to-the stars of the time, David Napley, within a couple of days of sjl's disappearance. Why? To keep the police on their toes, probably, but likely to ensure that any uncensored information about sjl and her life did not enter the public domain.

I've just re-read both AS's and DV's books and it's tempting to wonder whether the investigation WAS in fact carried out without influence from the Lamplughs. I also understand that it was DL herself who was instrumental in creating the JC narrative, either by accident or design. JMO of course.
The Lamplughs did have a lot of influence, but I doubt if the police were ever going to portray Suzy as a woman with lots of different lovers. Wouldn't they have lost all public sympathy
 
  • #934
The office junior took SL's car out that morning and it was left out of public view near to where it was eventually found.
Well, except that's not what he said. He said he left it in Whittingstall Road. If he had not, presumably SJL would have been back promptly to ask where it really was.
When SL left the office at lunchtime she was told it was parked in the road running behind the Crocodile Tears wine bar and it was from here that she was abducted.
Leaving aside whether there was any room behind CT for a random car to park there, this entails JC the office junior being part of some conspiracy. JC was 18 years old, however, so I struggle to see what criminal contacts he might have had.

Abduction as soon as she left the office does seem like a possibility - in fact, if you subscribe to the view that WJ accurately remembered the time her car was outside, it's almost the only way this can be true; the car was taken immediately to 123SR and SJL was taken elsewhere and not to 37SR. I just don't see what role an 18-year-old can have played.
The Mr Kipper diary entry was done by the apparently untraceable temporary secretary sending the police to Shorrolds Road.
There's no evidence for this. The handwriting looks the same across the whole page to me, and we now would have two malign colleagues conspiring against her.
If the car was indeed originally parked inside the gate outside of which it was later found it would therefore have been rolled out onto the street later that day thereby sending the police to Stevenage Road.
There's no reason to think it was inside the garage. A white Fiesta was apparently seen in that position from about 12 noon. As it overlapped the garage entrance, you'd have a job to position it there if it had been inside the garage. If someone at 123SR was involved why would they dispose of the car outside their own house?
SL's belongings would have been lifted during her Sunday trip to Worthing and then placed outside the POW pub for the temporary landlord to discover thus creating the narrative around the pub.
So a third person now followed her undetected to the coast to lift her stuff, then drove back to town and dropped it outside the pub, assuming it would be found? Why is this more likely than SJL simply having stopped off en route home to make a personal phone call she didn't want her roomy to overhear, and mislaying her stuff in the process? The trouble with laying all these false trails is that you risk being seen doing it.

If someone wanted to harm SJL and get away with it, the best way is to get her out of the office on some pretext, most obviously a viewing in a quiet street. You don't attempt anything here, because the location may be unsuitable and you have to assume the office knows where she went. Instead, from there you take her to your lair, hopefully unseen, which she enters and never leaves after you have harmed her. Nobody knows where this was, so the trail goes cold wherever she was last seen.

The logistical problem is around cars. You don't want to go directly to your lair in her car because then it may be seen outside or en route, and you're rumbled. So you need to go there indirectly. You need to get her out of her car into yours, and to do so well away from the viewing. So you get her to follow you, and you drive from the viewing to 123SR, where you pull over abruptly. She hastily stops right behind your car and gets out to see what's up. You say, Jump into mine for a second. Then you head off to your lair, and neither 37SR where you may have been seen, nor 123SR where you got her out of her car, are crime scenes. They're necessary dead ends; cutouts intended to fog the picture as to where she really went.

If JC was behind this and was using his mate JT's flat, garage, cars etc then 37SR and 123SR make sense. 37SR's a 2 minute drive from the flat; 123SR's a mile directly away from the flat, and vice versa of course.
 
  • #935
It would also negate all(?) Eyewitness accounts.
 
  • #936
If JC was behind this and was using his mate JT's flat, garage, cars etc then 37SR and 123SR make sense. 37SR's a 2 minute drive from the flat; 123SR's a mile directly away from the flat, and vice versa of course.
Or A.N. Other who had access to an unoccupied property in the vicinity.
 
  • #937
  • #938
Well, except that's not what he said. He said he left it in Whittingstall Road. If he had not, presumably SJL would have been back promptly to ask where it really was.

Leaving aside whether there was any room behind CT for a random car to park there, this entails JC the office junior being part of some conspiracy. JC was 18 years old, however, so I struggle to see what criminal contacts he might have had.

Abduction as soon as she left the office does seem like a possibility - in fact, if you subscribe to the view that WJ accurately remembered the time her car was outside, it's almost the only way this can be true; the car was taken immediately to 123SR and SJL was taken elsewhere and not to 37SR. I just don't see what role an 18-year-old can have played.

There's no evidence for this. The handwriting looks the same across the whole page to me, and we now would have two malign colleagues conspiring against her.

There's no reason to think it was inside the garage. A white Fiesta was apparently seen in that position from about 12 noon. As it overlapped the garage entrance, you'd have a job to position it there if it had been inside the garage. If someone at 123SR was involved why would they dispose of the car outside their own house?

So a third person now followed her undetected to the coast to lift her stuff, then drove back to town and dropped it outside the pub, assuming it would be found? Why is this more likely than SJL simply having stopped off en route home to make a personal phone call she didn't want her roomy to overhear, and mislaying her stuff in the process? The trouble with laying all these false trails is that you risk being seen doing it.

If someone wanted to harm SJL and get away with it, the best way is to get her out of the office on some pretext, most obviously a viewing in a quiet street. You don't attempt anything here, because the location may be unsuitable and you have to assume the office knows where she went. Instead, from there you take her to your lair, hopefully unseen, which she enters and never leaves after you have harmed her. Nobody knows where this was, so the trail goes cold wherever she was last seen.

The logistical problem is around cars. You don't want to go directly to your lair in her car because then it may be seen outside or en route, and you're rumbled. So you need to go there indirectly. You need to get her out of her car into yours, and to do so well away from the viewing. So you get her to follow you, and you drive from the viewing to 123SR, where you pull over abruptly. She hastily stops right behind your car and gets out to see what's up. You say, Jump into mine for a second. Then you head off to your lair, and neither 37SR where you may have been seen, nor 123SR where you got her out of her car, are crime scenes. They're necessary dead ends; cutouts intended to fog the picture as to where she really went.

If JC was behind this and was using his mate JT's flat, garage, cars etc then 37SR and 123SR make sense. 37SR's a 2 minute drive from the flat; 123SR's a mile directly away from the flat, and vice versa of course.

What I find bothersome is that back in 2022 according to Websleuther TimFisher1965 the office junior told him that the car was parked in Radipole Road not Whittingstall Road. I doubt I'm the only person who thinks it astonishing that the office junior's memory should have ' failed ' in this way. IMO the office junior didn't tell SL that the car was parked in either of these roads JMO
 
  • #939
I’ve also been confused by the events in the office at the time of SJL’s departure that morning.

In the Ch 5 documentary -The vanishing of Suzy Lamplugh. It Has her colleague JC remembering SJL asking him to get her the keys to Shorrolds road. She said she was off to do a quick showing and may go for lunch.

In the October 1986 Crimewatch episode. The SJL lookalike is seen leaving the estate agents with the narrator remarking that SJL left with the keys and documents relating to 37 Shorrolds road. As was often the case with SJL, she didn’t say where she was going.

The book ‘The Suzy Lamplugh Story’ by Andrew Stephen, states that she went to pick up the keys to 37 Shorrolds road from the keyboard behind MG desk and then took the details from a drawer. She was carrying her purse too, and a ring holding the keys of her car, the office and her flat. NH recalled that as she went out the door she asked JC ‘Where did you say my car was?’ And then she was gone. There seems to have been no record of where he said the car was.
JC had been out earlier in SJL’s car taking pictures of houses for sale. Did that mean that SJL had given him the whole key ring, including the car, her house and the office keys? Or was it the case that the car keys could easily be removed from the ring.

There is also mention from another source (which I can’t remember) where MG recalls SJL collecting the keys to Shorrolds from the keyboard. This MG memory is also strange if he was at Crocodile Tears for lunch at the time as per the DV book.

Time will obviously distort recollections, however, the AS book and Crimewatch episodes were quite close to the event and even they have variations.
JMO
 
  • #940
It's not entirely clear from PD sources whether these accounts of her taking the keys are descriptions of what normally happened, or of what the witnesses remembered actually happening.

You'd hope it was the latter, but even then, it's still not a slam-dunk that she did actually take them. MG was apparently able to get into the house later, which says he still had a set of keys, so where did those come from? Also, the police subsequently found no sign that anyone had been inside (source AS). This says either that nobody had the keys, or that if SJL did, she didn't use them.

This police observation in itself is puzzling, because it suggests (to me anyway) that they ought at least to have noticed that MG had been inside. If they meant that apart from MG, there was no sign anyone else e.g. SJL had been inside, then we're back to whether it's because she never had the keys whereby to do so, or never got a chance to use them.
 
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