UK UK - Suzy Lamplugh, 25, Fulham, 28 Jul 1986 #7

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  • #141
The publicly-rehearsed facts of this case don’t really get us anywhere, not least because a number of them turn out not to be definite facts at all.

She seems to have left the office at 12.40pm on Monday 28th July, leaving only two clues as to where she was going. One was the desk diary entry noting a viewing with a non-existent person, Mr Kipper, and the other was a phone call to the pub where she had mislaid her diary and cheque book.

She may have gone to 37SR to meet Mr Kipper, but it’s not cut-and-dried that she did so. First, it’s not clear she even took the keys. Colleagues were later able to enter the house to search it, and when the police forensicated it the next day, regardless of how they got in, they found no evidence anyone had been inside. Second, it’s not clear she was seen outside 37SR either. The most-cited witness claimed to have heard people coming out of 37SR, which isn’t possible if she never went in. He later conceded it could have been from 33 that he heard people leaving. The e-fit looks like most 30-year-old men in 1986, and that and the description are markedly different from other witness accounts. Some were so vague as to timing they could have been describing MG’s visit and misremembering the time.

If we accept on an Occam’s Razor basis that she did go, the next difficulty is that several witnesses are adamant her car was at 123SR by 12.40 - meaning she went straight there. If she intended to go to 37SR, she instead went to 123SR when she left the office, i.e. headed in 180 degrees the wrong direction. She there met someone, a mile away from 37SR, then got a lift back to Shorrolds, leaving her car unlocked outside 123SR.

There are several anomalous sightings and non-sightings that afternoon in Stevenage Road. Sightings include the jogger who saw a BMW apparently driven by a woman either screaming or laughing, which may have been an LHD car driven by its male “passenger”. Another was a James Galway lookalike who told a cabbie he’d just seen a right ruck going on. Another is MJ’s sighting of a good looking couple. None of these people ever came forward. Another is a reported strange howl that the witness assumed at the time to be a cat. Non-sightings include the BT workers who never noticed her car being ditched a few feet from them, nor heard any ruck. Another is the non-sighting of her retrieving her car at about 2.30. This has to have happened because she was seen in it then, heading away from 123SR, by someone who actually knew her. This time undermines all the other sightings.

So what actually happened? Well, SJL would IMO not have wasted time going out to a viewing with a quantity so unknown he’d yet to be logged as a potential customer. Until someone had checked out his situation, credibility etc, nobody would know if he was a plausible buyer, so you’d waste no time showing him houses until all that was clear. Ergo, Mr Kipper - the kind of nickname her clique tended to acquire - was a mate, or a private non-Sturgis contact dangling some sort of opportunity. He could have been a sexual partner, actual or contemplated - SJL was four-timing AL the week before she disappeared.

Who this was is conjecture. There were three men’s prisons within 4.5 miles of where she lived and worked, who between them released 1 to 2 rapists per week. So by the end of July, there could have been 30 to 50 released that year, any of whom might have hung around Fulham. She cultivated prosperous men as contacts and some were never tracked down. She was engaged in but had cooled on a business venture with a friend financed by the husband, who went bankrupt 8 days later. She told relatives she had a big deal on and that a man she was in touch with was pressuring her.

Probably SJL was inveigled into meeting someone she knew, we don’t know how, who got her to drive to a place where she could be taken inside an unremarkable house, garage or other building and attacked. She was probably either raped and then murdered so she couldn’t ID or accuse her rapist, or just murdered. I suspect a garage or warehouse, because she could then have been transferred from one car to another and disposed of elsewhere. Or perhaps hidden under a floor, depending on the sort of building (if you take up the ground floor boards of a London house, underneath there is the dirt the house was built on). Her car was abandoned at some point, the sloppy parking suggesting either a hurry, a short stop or someone returning to it to remove evidence.

The conjecture is that this person was JC. The “evidence” the police give for this is completely laughable, and consists of hearsay, coached statements 14 years after the fact, and assertions of their own opinion presented as fact. The CPS looked at the police case and concluded there was no evidence JC and SJL had ever met. A better circumstantial case against JC is possible, but presenting the best circumstantial case publicly would involve the police admitting that they missed leads, clues and obvious lines of inquiry in 1986. Had they been followed, and if it was JC, these would have led them to him in 1986 and hence saved the life of SB 2 years later. So the reason the police's public case against Cannan is so feeble is that the more damningly comprehensive one is simply too embarrassing to make.

Given the complexity and compartmentalization of her life, it didn't have to be JC. It could have been some other business contact who did this, or it could have been any other of the locally-released rapists. All of these are conjectural killers who may not exist, so on an Occam’s Razor basis, you tend to give it to Cannan because he did. But even here, although he does actually exist, evidence he met her does not. And as plausible as the circumstantial case against him sounds, nobody ever tried to see if any similarly plausible case could be made against any similar local offender. So while it fits Cannan, it’s not clear who else it fits too.
Lorna st
The publicly-rehearsed facts of this case don’t really get us anywhere, not least because a number of them turn out not to be definite facts at all.

She seems to have left the office at 12.40pm on Monday 28th July, leaving only two clues as to where she was going. One was the desk diary entry noting a viewing with a non-existent person, Mr Kipper, and the other was a phone call to the pub where she had mislaid her diary and cheque book.

She may have gone to 37SR to meet Mr Kipper, but it’s not cut-and-dried that she did so. First, it’s not clear she even took the keys. Colleagues were later able to enter the house to search it, and when the police forensicated it the next day, regardless of how they got in, they found no evidence anyone had been inside. Second, it’s not clear she was seen outside 37SR either. The most-cited witness claimed to have heard people coming out of 37SR, which isn’t possible if she never went in. He later conceded it could have been from 33 that he heard people leaving. The e-fit looks like most 30-year-old men in 1986, and that and the description are markedly different from other witness accounts. Some were so vague as to timing they could have been describing MG’s visit and misremembering the time.

If we accept on an Occam’s Razor basis that she did go, the next difficulty is that several witnesses are adamant her car was at 123SR by 12.40 - meaning she went straight there. If she intended to go to 37SR, she instead went to 123SR when she left the office, i.e. headed in 180 degrees the wrong direction. She there met someone, a mile away from 37SR, then got a lift back to Shorrolds, leaving her car unlocked outside 123SR.

There are several anomalous sightings and non-sightings that afternoon in Stevenage Road. Sightings include the jogger who saw a BMW apparently driven by a woman either screaming or laughing, which may have been an LHD car driven by its male “passenger”. Another was a James Galway lookalike who told a cabbie he’d just seen a right ruck going on. Another is MJ’s sighting of a good looking couple. None of these people ever came forward. Another is a reported strange howl that the witness assumed at the time to be a cat. Non-sightings include the BT workers who never noticed her car being ditched a few feet from them, nor heard any ruck. Another is the non-sighting of her retrieving her car at about 2.30. This has to have happened because she was seen in it then, heading away from 123SR, by someone who actually knew her. This time undermines all the other sightings.

So what actually happened? Well, SJL would IMO not have wasted time going out to a viewing with a quantity so unknown he’d yet to be logged as a potential customer. Until someone had checked out his situation, credibility etc, nobody would know if he was a plausible buyer, so you’d waste no time showing him houses until all that was clear. Ergo, Mr Kipper - the kind of nickname her clique tended to acquire - was a mate, or a private non-Sturgis contact dangling some sort of opportunity. He could have been a sexual partner, actual or contemplated - SJL was four-timing AL the week before she disappeared.

Who this was is conjecture. There were three men’s prisons within 4.5 miles of where she lived and worked, who between them released 1 to 2 rapists per week. So by the end of July, there could have been 30 to 50 released that year, any of whom might have hung around Fulham. She cultivated prosperous men as contacts and some were never tracked down. She was engaged in but had cooled on a business venture with a friend financed by the husband, who went bankrupt 8 days later. She told relatives she had a big deal on and that a man she was in touch with was pressuring her.

Probably SJL was inveigled into meeting someone she knew, we don’t know how, who got her to drive to a place where she could be taken inside an unremarkable house, garage or other building and attacked. She was probably either raped and then murdered so she couldn’t ID or accuse her rapist, or just murdered. I suspect a garage or warehouse, because she could then have been transferred from one car to another and disposed of elsewhere. Or perhaps hidden under a floor, depending on the sort of building (if you take up the ground floor boards of a London house, underneath there is the dirt the house was built on). Her car was abandoned at some point, the sloppy parking suggesting either a hurry, a short stop or someone returning to it to remove evidence.

The conjecture is that this person was JC. The “evidence” the police give for this is completely laughable, and consists of hearsay, coached statements 14 years after the fact, and assertions of their own opinion presented as fact. The CPS looked at the police case and concluded there was no evidence JC and SJL had ever met. A better circumstantial case against JC is possible, but presenting the best circumstantial case publicly would involve the police admitting that they missed leads, clues and obvious lines of inquiry in 1986. Had they been followed, and if it was JC, these would have led them to him in 1986 and hence saved the life of SB 2 years later. So the reason the police's public case against Cannan is so feeble is that the more damningly comprehensive one is simply too embarrassing to make.

Given the complexity and compartmentalization of her life, it didn't have to be JC. It could have been some other business contact who did this, or it could have been any other of the locally-released rapists. All of these are conjectural killers who may not exist, so on an Occam’s Razor basis, you tend to give it to Cannan because he did. But even here, although he does actually exist, evidence he met her does not. And as plausible as the circumstantial case against him sounds, nobody ever tried to see if any similarly plausible case could be made against any similar local offender. So while it fits Cannan, it’s not clear who else it fits too.
lorna st theresa hayles, murdered at home tasman rd clapham, the date of death was said to be around the tome sl disappeared,so her address would have been available
 
  • #142
Lorna st

lorna st theresa hayles, murdered at home tasman rd clapham, the date of death was said to be around the tome sl disappeared,so her address would have been available

What about this thought: slp386s
Remembering the body found in dead womans ditch, so maybe a liking for names and places.
So938655 a long shot but having the s as a 5 it turns out this is a grid reference not far from his local area and guess what “body brook” is located very near by
The weather that weekend and week was drizzle so i would not think they would have sat outside at a table at any point, one theory , something happened inside the pub the female lost ot and drove ofc in the car followed by the other person caught up in stevenage road explains the row in the street put her in the car (explains the car being left) xxp
I think it fits david fuller who would have been to the locality and was in the locality that year and had murdered 2 others in 1987
where abouts was the strange howl heard?
 
  • #143
I think it fits david fuller who would have been to the locality and was in the locality that year and had murdered 2 others in 1987
But more likely john duffy and david mulcahy as 2 men were seen at the address staring straight forward and address not far from a local station and their crimes moved on getting more brazen so a daylight abduction would not be inconceivable
 
  • #144
But more likely john duffy and david mulcahy as 2 men were seen at the address staring straight forward and address not far from a local station and their crimes moved on getting more brazen so a daylight abduction would not be inconceivable
Not an inconceivable possibility, not sure the witness (EH) gave a description that matched them. However, witness sightings aren’t always accurate.
Against is the fact that neither has owned up to abducting SJL. Generally I think if they were the perpetrators it would have come out by now.
 
  • #145
Taking into consideration john cannan had used the pub on several occasio
Her chequebook and a postcard (presumably all items that might have fallen out of her bag together).

One assumes that whatever bag they fell out of - perhaps when it was knocked off the picnic table outside the pub, where it was found, was likely her current handbag. So it fit these items into it.

It's actually a really good point that she'd want to take her bag if she had been going to pick up items - because otherwise she also ran the risk of coming back holding them and having her cover story blown. People in her office were well aware she'd mislaid these items and had taken calls about them. They'd be onto her in a flash if she walked back in with them!

I very much doubt the pub was her destination. She either went to Shorrolds briefly, if you believe the sightings there are credible, or straight to Stevenage Road.

Why take her purse at all? Probably she intended to pick up a sandwich from nearby the office.
ns it really leaves me little to doubt
 
  • #146
Taking into consideration john cannan had used the pub on several occasions it really leaves me little to doubt
How do you know this? As far as I know there is no evidence that Cannan ever set foot in the Prince Of Wales.
 
  • #147
I think it fits david fuller who would have been to the locality and was in the locality that year and had murdered 2 others in 1987
Fuller apparently kept extensive diaries. What dates do you have him in London for in 1986?
 
  • #148
But more likely john duffy and david mulcahy as 2 men were seen at the address staring straight forward and address not far from a local station and their crimes moved on getting more brazen so a daylight abduction would not be inconceivable
I think Duffy would have confessed by now if it had been them.
 
  • #149
Fuller apparently kept extensive diaries. What dates do you have him in London for in 1986?
He hadvgiven up his job and was following the cutting crew around the uk, there record company siren records also nearby
 
  • #150
How do you know this? As far as I know there is no evidence that Cannan ever set foot in the Prince Of Wales.
It is on a crime reel on youtube, i guess you can make of it what you will and also the grand union canal link, which suprises me divers have never checked as it is only around 5 foot deep but murky
 
  • #151
It is on a crime reel on youtube, i guess you can make of it what you will
Link, please.
I know there is a documentary where a voiceover states that Cannan was a customer at the Prince of Wales but the witness who actually speaks to camera never mentions the pub by name.
 
  • #152
He hadvgiven up his job and was following the cutting crew around the uk, there record company siren records also nearby
I thought it was 1985 when Fuller was travelling to gigs.

Funnily enough, his special pal in prison these days is apparently Steve Wright, who worked with Suzy on the QE2.
 
  • #153
Link, please.
I know there is a documentary where a voiceover states that Cannan was a customer at the Prince of Wales but the witness who actually speaks to camera never mentions the pub by name.
Yes, that documentary is rather flawed, if we're thinking of the same one. There is no evidence that JC went to the PoW and the Met have not been able to prove that he and SJL ever met. I believe that is one of the reasons why the CPS would not allow them to proceed with a charge and prosecution.
 
  • #154
I too don't believe that Suzy headed to the pub that lunchtime, i really think she would have taken her handbag to collect her lost items.

In DV's book, KH mentions speaking to Suzy on the phone, and she said she would be along to collect the items later. I think she intended to do the viewing at 6pm, then pick up her things from the pub on the way home.

I also agree that she probably took her purse to buy some lunch after the viewing at Shorrolds Road.
i dont believe KH ever had a conversation with suzy over the phone regarding her lost items. i think he made up this story. it was his wife who rang suzy at sturgis and arranged the 6pm appointment to get her items back after work.
 
  • #155
Strictly it is likelier that the pub rang the bank, the bank rang SJL and she then rang the pub. The bank would not disclose her contact details to a third party but they'd pass the pub's number on to her.

So SJL calla the pub and if it's before about noon speaks to whomever's not involved in the handover stocktake. If later, the stocktake is done, so she could have spoken to anyone.
 
  • #156
i dont believe KH ever had a conversation with suzy over the phone regarding her lost items. i think he made up this story. it was his wife who rang suzy at sturgis and arranged the 6pm appointment to get her items back after work.
Wondering why he would have made that up, i have to question the investigation
 
  • #157
Link, please.
I know there is a documentary where a voiceover states that Cannan was a customer at the Prince of Wales but the witness who actually speaks to camera never mentions the pub by name.
Strange why not state the pub and clear that up?
 
  • #158
Did the police ever have Michael Sams as a suspect? has form for abducting estate agents
 
  • #159
i dont believe KH ever had a conversation with suzy over the phone regarding her lost items. i think he made up this story. it was his wife who rang suzy at sturgis and arranged the 6pm appointment to get her items back after work.

Wondering why he would have made that up, i have to question the investigation
I doubt he deliberately made it up. Details get blurred and conversations misreported. I am sure there was no "6pm appointment", it was an arrangement to call after 6pm because the pub would have been closed until then. But some people have interpreted it as a specific time.

The important thing is that Suzy rang the pub, enquired about her lost property, and arranged to collect it that evening.
It doesn't matter who she spoke to - KH, his wife or another member of staff. Perhaps he didn't remember, or perhaps when he mentioned the call he didn't specify, and it was assumed that the conversation was with him.

There is a classic example of misinterpretation in the first quote, where it is stated that someone "rang Suzy at Sturgis". As West Londoner has pointed out, this is unlikely.
 
  • #160
I think he was considered but eliminated, not sure why (probably because he didn't look like Mr Kipper).
 
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