UK UK - Suzy Lamplugh, 25, Fulham, 28 Jul 1986 #7

[Rush4087]

Not a very tough call for LE.

1/ If they proceed with the forensic work, whatever it was, on the one hand it may show JC did it - in which case they look foolish for not having worked this out 38 years ago.

2/ If they proceed with the forensic work and on the other hand it does not show JC did it, they're no further forward, so what a waste of effort that was.

3/ If they proceed with the forensic work and it actually points away from JC, they look foolish for having spent 20 years insisting it was him when it wasn't (and they had quite a few people, including the CPS, telling them there were no grounds to say it was).

4/ If they don't proceed with the forensic work, the claim that it was JC does not get upheld, but on the other hand nor does it get debunked either.

Of those outcomes, the last is surely the best outcome for the least risk, which probably matters when you're in special measures. The other three all look potentially or decidedly bad, so in their shoes I'd go for number 4, Bob.

Or, they could just do the right thing and do the forensic work.

Jmo

 

[WestLondoner]

All of WS ARE pedants

All can be a singular collective noun: 'all of government is completely dysfunctional', 'all of the United Kingdom is rainy'. The verb relates to 'all', not to 'pedants'.
</pedant>

 

[WestLondoner]

Or, they could just do the right thing and do the forensic work.

Jmo

Not without one of its three consequences, none good.

A manager I used to work for expressed the view that the company practised MBP: Management By Procrastination. Given a choice of three courses of action, the company would shirk any decision and follow none of them. Eventually two of the options would disappear, leaving only one. This became the decision, without anybody having to take one, because there was no choice.

I suspect that a bit of tactical havering will now ensue as LE MBPs its way to option #4 above. I mean, just imagine the recrimination if #1 turned out to be the result. Or the embarrassment if #3. #2 is better than either but still worse than #4.

 

[Cherwell]

the sketch looks nothing like SL boss MG.

This one does.

 

[WestLondoner]

Shakin' Stevens and Warren Cann out of Ultravox also need to account for their movements that day.

The sketch is so generic it could be almost anyone, especially if Mr Kipper needs to look like either the above sketch or the later one, where he had shorter hair.

 

[lee sumner]

There's no evidence that Cannan was the man she allegedly arranged a viewing with. The sketch of "Mr Kipper" actually resembles Suzy's boss who was there later with a colleague, looking for her. Lots of things that have been presented as facts are unreliable. All the stories about Kipper being his nickname are unfounded.

there is no evidence JC abducted SL, that is why the CPS would not bring charges.

 

[lee sumner]

This one does.
View attachment 544651

MG has a round face and curly hair. i dont think he looks anything like mr kipper.

 

[lee sumner]

I hope they've combed through whatever possessions he left behind. He was obviously Mr Kipper. And there will be other crimes he likely committed without being prosecuted for. Perhaps we'll find out more about Cannan in the coming years.

i used to be convinced he was mr kipper, but not now. he was to stupid to commit the perfect crime.

 

[WestLondoner]

there is no evidence JC abducted SL, that is why the CPS would not bring charges.

Yes, the CPS have said there is no evidence they met, hence no charges. That this point ruled out any charges implies that the police case was that JC had been attempting to ingratiate himself with SJL, and to insert himself into her circle, as preliminaries to an attack. Having not shown this ever happened, their case against JC fails on this point.

SJL never having met JC does not rule out an attack by him as a stranger, but this seems not to be what LE thinks happened. It also depends, improbably, on SJL going off to a house viewing with someone about whom she knew nothing. Disregarding the personal safety dimension, which she might not have been alive to, this seems an unlikely thing for her to do on professional grounds alone. Knowing nothing about "Mr Kipper", his situation, finances etc, he could have been a complete timewaster, with no money or way to proceed. An estate agent would surely bottom all that out first before rushing off to a viewing.

Which takes one back to the idea that she'd only have gone out to that viewing if she already knew "Kipper". And the CPS don't think Cannan was anyone she already knew.

 

[Rush4087]

Not without one of its three consequences, none good.

A manager I used to work for expressed the view that the company practised MBP: Management By Procrastination. Given a choice of three courses of action, the company would shirk any decision and follow none of them. Eventually two of the options would disappear, leaving only one. This became the decision, without anybody having to take one, because there was no choice.

I suspect that a bit of tactical havering will now ensue as LE MBPs its way to option #4 above. I mean, just imagine the recrimination if #1 turned out to be the result. Or the embarrassment if #3. #2 is better than either but still worse than #4.

Never said there wouldn’t be consequences for doing the right thing.

I just said that the possible consequences (to LE) of doing a proper investigation shouldn’t be a consideration in whether LE decides to do a proper investigation or not.

I think most people expect LE to investigate and try to solve crimes based on where the evidence leads them, not based on what LE thinks the consequences of the investigation might mean to their reputation.

I’d also like to think that most LE organizations don’t utilize a “MBP” approach to running their organization and investigations, and don’t engage in “tactical havering” when it comes to making decisions about whether to do a comprehensive investigation or not.

Jmo

 

[WestLondoner]

I agree consequences shouldn't be a consideration, but I am sure they are.

 

[lee sumner]

Yes, the CPS have said there is no evidence they met, hence no charges. That this point ruled out any charges implies that the police case was that JC had been attempting to ingratiate himself with SJL, and to insert himself into her circle, as preliminaries to an attack. Having not shown this ever happened, their case against JC fails on this point.

SJL never having met JC does not rule out an attack by him as a stranger, but this seems not to be what LE thinks happened. It also depends, improbably, on SJL going off to a house viewing with someone about whom she knew nothing. Disregarding the personal safety dimension, which she might not have been alive to, this seems an unlikely thing for her to do on professional grounds alone. Knowing nothing about "Mr Kipper", his situation, finances etc, he could have been a complete timewaster, with no money or way to proceed. An estate agent would surely bottom all that out first before rushing off to a viewing.

Which takes one back to the idea that she'd only have gone out to that viewing if she already knew "Kipper". And the CPS don't think Cannan was anyone she already knew.

i think mr kipper was a stranger, but not sure that stranger was JC.

 

[lee sumner]

Yes, the CPS have said there is no evidence they met, hence no charges. That this point ruled out any charges implies that the police case was that JC had been attempting to ingratiate himself with SJL, and to insert himself into her circle, as preliminaries to an attack. Having not shown this ever happened, their case against JC fails on this point.

SJL never having met JC does not rule out an attack by him as a stranger, but this seems not to be what LE thinks happened. It also depends, improbably, on SJL going off to a house viewing with someone about whom she knew nothing. Disregarding the personal safety dimension, which she might not have been alive to, this seems an unlikely thing for her to do on professional grounds alone. Knowing nothing about "Mr Kipper", his situation, finances etc, he could have been a complete timewaster, with no money or way to proceed. An estate agent would surely bottom all that out first before rushing off to a viewing.

Which takes one back to the idea that she'd only have gone out to that viewing if she already knew "Kipper". And the CPS don't think Cannan was anyone she already knew.

SL could have thought it was a joke someone using the name mr kipper, so i agree with what you say, but going off with strangers is all part of being a estate agent.

 

[lee sumner]

Yes, the CPS have said there is no evidence they met, hence no charges. That this point ruled out any charges implies that the police case was that JC had been attempting to ingratiate himself with SJL, and to insert himself into her circle, as preliminaries to an attack. Having not shown this ever happened, their case against JC fails on this point.

SJL never having met JC does not rule out an attack by him as a stranger, but this seems not to be what LE thinks happened. It also depends, improbably, on SJL going off to a house viewing with someone about whom she knew nothing. Disregarding the personal safety dimension, which she might not have been alive to, this seems an unlikely thing for her to do on professional grounds alone. Knowing nothing about "Mr Kipper", his situation, finances etc, he could have been a complete timewaster, with no money or way to proceed. An estate agent would surely bottom all that out first before rushing off to a viewing.

Which takes one back to the idea that she'd only have gone out to that viewing if she already knew "Kipper". And the CPS don't think Cannan was anyone she already knew.

as you probably already know, she did not fill in a client requirement card for mr kipper, which only deepens the mystery.

 

[Konstantin]

Knowing nothing about "Mr Kipper", his situation, finances etc, he could have been a complete timewaster, with no money or way to proceed. An estate agent would surely bottom all that out first before rushing off to a viewing.

Indeed. She would have at least taken a contact telephone number and his first name. It would have seemed awfully fishy, no pun intended, if a potential buyer rang to arrange a viewing and would not provide these details. It's more likely she made up the name for whatever reason.

 

[Eastend Eagle]

Indeed. She would have at least taken a contact telephone number and his first name. It would have seemed awfully fishy, no pun intended, if a potential buyer rang to arrange a viewing and would not provide these details. It's more likely she made up the name for whatever reason.

or of course that one of her colleagues did the nonsensical diary entry...
MOO

 

[Eastend Eagle]

We, The People, call on temporary secretary Kathleen Reidy to come forward and fully account for her actions that day.

 

[WestLondoner]

To be fair the handwriting did look like SJL's as seen elsewhere.

 

[lee sumner]

Indeed. She would have at least taken a contact telephone number and his first name. It would have seemed awfully fishy, no pun intended, if a potential buyer rang to arrange a viewing and would not provide these details. It's more likely she made up the name for whatever reason.

a buyer using the name mr kipper does seem odd, but SL using that name is odd as well. i dont think we will ever know the truth.

 

[lee sumner]

To be fair the handwriting did look like SJL's as seen elsewhere.

i agree. you can tell SL put that appointment in her diary. its her handwriting.