UK UK - Suzy Lamplugh, 25, Fulham, 28 Jul 1986 #7

[lee sumner]

There's no evidence that Cannan was the man she allegedly arranged a viewing with. The sketch of "Mr Kipper" actually resembles Suzy's boss who was there later with a colleague, looking for her. Lots of things that have been presented as facts are unreliable. All the stories about Kipper being his nickname are unfounded.

not so. she went to a viewing with a client called mr kipper. its there in her diary. last seen with a mystery man, so logic tells us this was the mysterious mr kipper.

 

[Cherwell]

not so. she went to a viewing with a client called mr kipper. its there in her diary. last seen with a mystery man, so logic tells us this was the mysterious mr kipper.

What is "not so"?

We don't know that she went to a viewing. We know that she wrote it down in her appointments book, but we don't know if it was genuine or a cover for some private arrangement. We don't know if Kipper was a real name, a pseudonym, a nickname, or a name she made up. You wouldn't make a very good detective if you accept everything you're told without examining it and double-checking it.

 

[WestLondoner]

Indeed. We don't know she went to Shorrolds because when the police checked the house they found, according to Andrew Stephen, no evidence that anyone had been inside. If nobody went in 37SR, then HR's claim to have heard and seen people coming out is incorrect. HR's subsequent admission that the people he saw maybe came out of a different house altogether - and hence were not SJL and Kipper - then looks more likely.

There is also the problem of WJ's sighting of SJL's car in Stevenage Road. Police worked out that it was there by 12.40 and did not change position all day. If so, SJL can't have been outside Shorrolds at 1pm unless she drove in completely the wrong direction from Shorrolds to meet someone in Stevenage instead, who then drove her straight back to Shorrolds.

So even the apparently simplest "facts" about this are not clear-cut, or self-evident, or even facts. All we know for sure is that she left the office at about 12.40 and her car was abandoned in Stevenage Road.

Add in the facts that Shakin' Stevens and the drummer out of Ultravox were both seen in Shorrolds Road and you've got a rich mystery developing. What was Shakey's interest in this ole house? Did Warren get lost on his way to Heathrow and miss his flight to Vienna?

 

[Konstantin]

If nobody went in 37SR, then HR's claim to have heard and seen people coming out is incorrect. HR's subsequent admission that the people he saw maybe came out of a different house altogether - and hence were not SJL and Kipper - then looks more likely.

Yes. HR said he heard a door slamming but when he was reinterviewed he admitted that the door slamming could have been the other side, not number 37.

He also retracted his testimony that he had seen a man "bundling" a woman into a car.

The house was forensically examined using the technology of the day which would have been mostly latent prints and nothing belonging to SJL was found, or presumably to anyone else with her. You'd expect, if she went inside the house, for her to have left prints or partial prints on door handles, possibly on counters or light switches depending. If someone had gone in with her they might have been more cautious about touching anything. But there were no prints found and no evidence of anything being moved or disturbed. If SJL did go in -- which there is no evidence for -- she did not touch anything and was not assaulted in the house. Assaulting someone in a terraced house in broad daylight would have been messy anyway because anyone in the neighbouring homes would hear something.

So SJL might have gone to Shorrolds Road but that is far from determined as fact. Eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable which is why CCTV cameras are such a game changer. Cameras don't lie or misremember.

 

[Eastend Eagle]

Yes. HR said he heard a door slamming but when he was reinterviewed he admitted that the door slamming could have been the other side, not number 37.

He also retracted his testimony that he had seen a man "bundling" a woman into a car.

The house was forensically examined using the technology of the day which would have been mostly latent prints and nothing belonging to SJL was found, or presumably to anyone else with her. You'd expect, if she went inside the house, for her to have left prints or partial prints on door handles, possibly on counters or light switches depending. If someone had gone in with her they might have been more cautious about touching anything. But there were no prints found and no evidence of anything being moved or disturbed. If SJL did go in -- which there is no evidence for -- she did not touch anything and was not assaulted in the house. Assaulting someone in a terraced house in broad daylight would have been messy anyway because anyone in the neighbouring homes would hear something.

So SJL might have gone to Shorrolds Road but that is far from determined as fact. Eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable which is why CCTV cameras are such a game changer. Cameras don't lie or misremember.

Was it MG that got HR to state that he saw a man bundling a woman into a car?

 

[WestLondoner]

We don't know. The source of this is AS and it is ambiguous as written whether this was said by HR to MG, by HR to the police or by MG (paraphrasing HR) to the police.

 

[lee sumner]

What is "not so"?

We don't know that she went to a viewing. We know that she wrote it down in her appointments book, but we don't know if it was genuine or a cover for some private arrangement. We don't know if Kipper was a real name, a pseudonym, a nickname, or a name she made up. You wouldn't make a very good detective if you accept everything you're told without examining it and double-checking it.

what i meant was even if the name is fake we are still looking for a ghost named mr kipper. i do check everything, but believe in occams razor, and this case is filled with conspiracy.

 

[lee sumner]

Indeed. We don't know she went to Shorrolds because when the police checked the house they found, according to Andrew Stephen, no evidence that anyone had been inside. If nobody went in 37SR, then HR's claim to have heard and seen people coming out is incorrect. HR's subsequent admission that the people he saw maybe came out of a different house altogether - and hence were not SJL and Kipper - then looks more likely.

There is also the problem of WJ's sighting of SJL's car in Stevenage Road. Police worked out that it was there by 12.40 and did not change position all day. If so, SJL can't have been outside Shorrolds at 1pm unless she drove in completely the wrong direction from Shorrolds to meet someone in Stevenage instead, who then drove her straight back to Shorrolds.

So even the apparently simplest "facts" about this are not clear-cut, or self-evident, or even facts. All we know for sure is that she left the office at about 12.40 and her car was abandoned in Stevenage Road.

Add in the facts that Shakin' Stevens and the drummer out of Ultravox were both seen in Shorrolds Road and you've got a rich mystery developing. What was Shakey's interest in this ole house? Did Warren get lost on his way to Heathrow and miss his flight to Vienna?

HR said he seen a couple outside shorrolds rd. DV likes to dismiss this sighting as not being SL, but it lines up with what is wrote down in her diary. the keys and paperwork to 37 shorrolds rd she took with her, so laogic tells me it was SL and mr kipper.

 

[lee sumner]

Indeed. We don't know she went to Shorrolds because when the police checked the house they found, according to Andrew Stephen, no evidence that anyone had been inside. If nobody went in 37SR, then HR's claim to have heard and seen people coming out is incorrect. HR's subsequent admission that the people he saw maybe came out of a different house altogether - and hence were not SJL and Kipper - then looks more likely.

There is also the problem of WJ's sighting of SJL's car in Stevenage Road. Police worked out that it was there by 12.40 and did not change position all day. If so, SJL can't have been outside Shorrolds at 1pm unless she drove in completely the wrong direction from Shorrolds to meet someone in Stevenage instead, who then drove her straight back to Shorrolds.

So even the apparently simplest "facts" about this are not clear-cut, or self-evident, or even facts. All we know for sure is that she left the office at about 12.40 and her car was abandoned in Stevenage Road.

Add in the facts that Shakin' Stevens and the drummer out of Ultravox were both seen in Shorrolds Road and you've got a rich mystery developing. What was Shakey's interest in this ole house? Did Warren get lost on his way to Heathrow and miss his flight to Vienna?

there is no way SL car was there at 12.40pm. WJ has got to be wrong. SL was taken away in her car to a location, the car was then brought back and ditched on stevenage rd. all this takes time. so the car had to have been ditched later that day or early evening.

 

[Konstantin]

SL was taken away in her car to a location, the car was then brought back and ditched on stevenage rd. all this takes time.

There is no evidence that this happened, though.

 

[WestLondoner]

there is no way SL car was there at 12.40pm. WJ has got to be wrong.

Either WJ was wrong or HR was. They can't both be right.

 

[lee sumner]

there is no way SL car was there at 12.40pm. WJ has got to be wrong. SL was taken away in her car to a location, the car was then brought back and ditched on stevenage rd. all this takes time. so the car had to have been ditched later that day or early evening.

i believe SL could have been inside 37 S. we dont leave trace evidence behind everywhere we go. its not like CSI where there is always trace evidence left behind.

 

[jetsfanjohn]

i believe SL could have been inside 37 S. we dont leave trace evidence behind everywhere we go. its not like CSI where there is always trace evidence left behind.

Do you think she was abducted from there or do you think she made it to Stevenage Road ?

 

[lee sumner]

Do you think she was abducted from there or do you think she made it to Stevenage Road ?

i believe she was abducted after viewing 37 shorrolds rd. i dont believe SL was ever on stevenage rd. mr kipper ditched her car there.

 

[jetsfanjohn]

i believe she was abducted after viewing 37 shorrolds rd. i dont believe SL was ever on stevenage rd. mr kipper ditched her car there.

I think it is possible that she was not at either property. I tend to go with the idea that she was planning to meet someone that she may have not have know that well, but she thought she could trust and the situation went quickly downhill.

 

[lee sumner]

I think it is possible that she was not at either property. I tend to go with the idea that she was planning to meet someone that she may have not have know that well, but she thought she could trust and the situation went quickly downhill.

that is why it is such a fascinating case.

 

[StillDiggin]

Key to mystery of missing estate agent could be found nearly 40 years later

Suzy Lamplugh disappeared without a trace on July 28, 1986, and the mystery of what had happened to the estate agent, from Fulham, southwest London, captured the public’s imagination

www.mirror.co.uk

 

[Ljh21]

Prime suspect for Suzy Lamplugh's murder dies in jail aged 70

Convicted killer John Cannan was jailed for a minimum of 35 years in 1989 for the rape and murder of Bristol newlywed Shirley Banks.

www.dailymail.co.uk

The only fact in this case is that clive vole had suzys personal items and could just say he found them on the doorstep of the pub …fact, and the police accept that is the truth

 

[Ljh21]

@ kaspar

FYI, the three most informative books to read about this case are The Suzy Lamplugh Story, by Andrew Stephen (herein "AS"); Prime Suspect, by Christopher Berry-Dee ("CBD"); and Finding Suzy, by David Videcette ("DV"). That's also actually quite a good order in which to read them.

AS sets out the facts as known before Cannan's name came into the picture, including much information about SJL's family and romantic background; CBD sets out Cannan's criminal history; DV goes back to basics and questions how Cannan was ever associated with the case, given there is no evidence he ever met SJL or was in Fulham that day - this last being the CPS' reason for refusing to charge him in 2000/1.

There is no good TV documentary on this case, as all of them start with the supposition that SJL was murdered by Cannan, and consider no other possibility. Probably a condition of police assistance making the documentary is that they don't challenge the police's preferred version; this compromises all of them.

This case feels like it should have been soluble in 1986. Nobody checked whether any sexual offenders had recently been released from the three nearby male prisons - Wormwood, Brixton, and Wandsworth. Had they done so, a list of possibles could have been assembled, and those on it required to account for themselves. This would have exposed Cannan if this was him.

A man was reported with SJL in a dark-coloured LHD BMW. There weren't that many of these in the country, so tracing them was a manageable task that might well have led to Cannan.

If SJL was abducted, then she was taken somewhere nearby. No effective effort was made to find out where else her car or any BMW might have gone; an inconvenient sighting of SJL by someone who knew her was handwaved away as probably the wrong day.

Inconsistencies in the various witness statements weren't properly bottomed out, with the result that at the end of the investigation, all the police knew of her movements was that she left the office at about 12.40.

It still seems extraordinary that someone can just disappear off the street without trace.

One person who may have been in the area is david fuller, who raped and murdered a 25 yo and 26 yo in 1987, he was photographing the cutting crew on tour that year and siren records was in w10 not far away from the abduction, i also noticed the cutting crew have even recently as this month played in putney

I guess it will never be solved now. He is the most likely suspect and now he is dead.

 

[Ljh21]

This one does.
View attachment 544651

I wonder if his death will evoke new found interest in the case of SJL?