UK UK - Suzy Lamplugh, 25, Fulham, 28 Jul 1986 #8

  • #281
i was thinking the same thing. maybe SL was not the target that day. was mr kipper after any female EA, and SL got unlucky. if so kipper also got lucky with SL because of how attractive she was. if she did go 37/SRD, then i think he would have let her arrive first, so was he watching waiting for her to arrive. if so where on shorrolds rd was he watching and waiting.

Yep. This is the big problem with this case, really. We can’t even say with any certainty that Mr Kipper was real, never mind that Suzy was the intended target.

AS appears to suggest that police settled on the idea that ‘Kipper’ made the appointment in person on the Saturday, and theorises: “A client came in, and they had a few minutes’ banter. Lightheartedly, she wrote the name ‘Mr Kipper’ in her diary, perhaps unclear herself whether the man was being serious or not.”

I find this hard to believe. Anyone doing this - in person - would be taking a huge risk, the potential for being identified is surely too high. Who else was in the office on the Saturday? I’d be amazed if Suzy was alone. If she had been, and knowing JC’s previous, why wouldn’t he - if he was Kipper - just commit the crime there and then?

It’s far more likely imo that, if an appointment was made, it was made on the phone. But how could the caller be sure who he’d be speaking to? What if his call had been put through to SF instead? Would she have sufficed? Ultimately we’ve no idea, for forty years police have been looking at this, these are fairly basic questions that they/we don’t know the answers to, yet we’re supposed to believe they’ve cracked the case!
 
  • #282
If there was a Mr Kipper and he physically came into the office on the Saturday then yes, absolutely others would have seen him. He could have been described and compared to whomever it was HR saw. Positive ID would solve the police's problem that they can't show the CPS JC and SJL ever met. So I don't buy it.

It is conceivable the arrangement to meet was made away from the office and she just filled in that entry on Monday to explain the absence. We don't even know when it got into her desk diary unfortunately.
 
  • #283
  • #284
  • #285
Haven't seen this on the wikipedia page before - who has the authority to post this information?

Disappearance of Suzy Lamplugh - Wikipedia
Mysterious call on the afternoon of disappearance

1763072184447.webp
 
  • #286
Classic example of how cr@p Wikipedia is. The entire page is abysmal and there is no source for the claims Cannan went to the PoW. Who woukd he schlepping to an unremarkable pub in Putney? Why did nobody from the pub remember either SJL or JC as having been there?

This is IMO just part of the desperate effort 15 years later to put JC in the frame. He may have done it but none of this stacks up.
 
  • #287
Classic example of how cr@p Wikipedia is. The entire page is abysmal and there is no source for the claims Cannan went to the PoW. Who woukd he schlepping to an unremarkable pub in Putney? Why did nobody from the pub remember either SJL or JC as having been there?

This is IMO just part of the desperate effort 15 years later to put JC in the frame. He may have done it but none of this stacks up.
Totally agree - people seem to take what is on there as verbatim.
Can just anyone edit it? (you can see the history)
Jeez i could edit it and say she was having sex with the Easter bunny and people would believe it!😆

I only found it as I was having a squiz on reddit - someone posted a thread 12 days ago about this call made under duress.
 
  • #288
So some thoughts here...
I finally was able to watch the Sky Crime Doco (2021) which claims to reference entries from SJLs diary (admittedly I guess this could be one of many), also the NOTW article from 1988 that also has supposed entries from her diary at the time.
I can only assume that the release of these entries (if true) are managed by the family ? If the identity of the possible perp is in her most recent diary (or not, but you would think there would be some writings about someone) surely this would be massive red flags to anyone.
It all seems a bit odd to me. Here are DL and PL being upset about the publication of AS book and its content, but 2 years later in the 1988 NOTW article it has entries from her own diary and JH that are just as 'scandalous'. And then even 33 years later in the Sky doco it has comments like ' I confess to my diary that I would never use language like that at home'", and '' I am not settling down anytime soon"
RL even appears in these docos. I guess over the years they realised SJLs life was way more complicated than what they knew .

No disrespect to any of the L family in this post. Just racking my brain around again .
 
  • #289
A podcast got released on YT yesterday that is interviewing retired DI Mike Barley about the case. It is worth a listen as he has quite alot to say, more than anything than has been in the old interviews with him. Some of it is rehashing what is already known, I wish they would delve a little deeper tbh. What is interesting is what he has to say about the Sunday night before.

It must have been recorded recently has they refer to JC death and 39 years since she disappeared. It will be interesting to see if they interview Jim Dickie in part 2



1763508850467.webp
 
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  • #290
What is interesting is what he has to say about the Sunday night before.

Yeah, this bit was really interesting, or had the potential to be anyway. For anyone that hasn’t listened, Barley describes Suzy’s movements on the Sunday evening as ‘clandestine’ and states his belief that she was already ‘seeing’ Mr Kipper at this point, prior to the Monday ‘appointment’.

Frustratingly they don’t really explore this angle much - it’s largely just a way of Barley shoehorning Cannan into the conversation, with Cannan supposedly being the guy she was ‘seeing’ on a ‘clandestine’ basis.

There are so many obvious issues with this. Why would she need to see Cannan on the Monday lunchtime if she’d seen him as recently as Sunday night? If she’d faked the diary entry in order to get out of the office and meet up with Cannan, then it could also be argued she might’ve faked the diary entry to go off and do something else, possibly with someone else? What/who/where might that have been?

But the hosts clearly aren’t interested in anything like that - instead, we get treated to all the hits, the ‘Bristol businessman’ guff, the stuff about buying flowers being Cannan’s MO, with the promise of more to come in part 2!

The most revealing thing Barley says is towards the beginning of the episode: “Late on that Monday evening we knew three things… Suzy left the office at about 12.40 … her car had been found at one minute past 10 in Stevenage Road … and she hadn’t been seen since. And really, 39 years on we only really know those same three things.”

It’s really difficult to think of another UK case where such a major investigation spanning numerous decades has uncovered so very, very little.
 
  • #291
Yeah, this bit was really interesting, or had the potential to be anyway. For anyone that hasn’t listened, Barley describes Suzy’s movements on the Sunday evening as ‘clandestine’ and states his belief that she was already ‘seeing’ Mr Kipper at this point, prior to the Monday ‘appointment’.

Frustratingly they don’t really explore this angle much - it’s largely just a way of Barley shoehorning Cannan into the conversation, with Cannan supposedly being the guy she was ‘seeing’ on a ‘clandestine’ basis.

There are so many obvious issues with this. Why would she need to see Cannan on the Monday lunchtime if she’d seen him as recently as Sunday night? If she’d faked the diary entry in order to get out of the office and meet up with Cannan, then it could also be argued she might’ve faked the diary entry to go off and do something else, possibly with someone else? What/who/where might that have been?

But the hosts clearly aren’t interested in anything like that - instead, we get treated to all the hits, the ‘Bristol businessman’ guff, the stuff about buying flowers being Cannan’s MO, with the promise of more to come in part 2!

The most revealing thing Barley says is towards the beginning of the episode: “Late on that Monday evening we knew three things… Suzy left the office at about 12.40 … her car had been found at one minute past 10 in Stevenage Road … and she hadn’t been seen since. And really, 39 years on we only really know those same three things.”

It’s really difficult to think of another UK case where such a major investigation spanning numerous decades has uncovered so very, very little.
Great post rvlvr
As much as MB had some clearly interesting things to say (like the Sunday night scenario) it basically is the same old same old.
So frustrating its like they have tunnel vision.
Do you think the hosts are limited to what they can ask /say?
 
  • #292
Yeah, this bit was really interesting, or had the potential to be anyway. For anyone that hasn’t listened, Barley describes Suzy’s movements on the Sunday evening as ‘clandestine’ and states his belief that she was already ‘seeing’ Mr Kipper at this point, prior to the Monday ‘appointment’.

Frustratingly they don’t really explore this angle much - it’s largely just a way of Barley shoehorning Cannan into the conversation, with Cannan supposedly being the guy she was ‘seeing’ on a ‘clandestine’ basis.

There are so many obvious issues with this. Why would she need to see Cannan on the Monday lunchtime if she’d seen him as recently as Sunday night? If she’d faked the diary entry in order to get out of the office and meet up with Cannan, then it could also be argued she might’ve faked the diary entry to go off and do something else, possibly with someone else? What/who/where might that have been?

But the hosts clearly aren’t interested in anything like that - instead, we get treated to all the hits, the ‘Bristol businessman’ guff, the stuff about buying flowers being Cannan’s MO, with the promise of more to come in part 2!

The most revealing thing Barley says is towards the beginning of the episode: “Late on that Monday evening we knew three things… Suzy left the office at about 12.40 … her car had been found at one minute past 10 in Stevenage Road … and she hadn’t been seen since. And really, 39 years on we only really know those same three things.”

It’s really difficult to think of another UK case where such a major investigation spanning numerous decades has uncovered so very, very little.

Other statements by MB in this podcast I find interesting is what he had to say about the public response (as there was not alot of other news at the time he said the papers focused on SJL, and the public response was massive - he said 1000's of people came forward. 26000 cards were recorded.

Pretty incredulous that in this amount of information there was nothing. (makes me think of the LISK - Gilgo Beach case where before it was digitised years later - RH was there all along in the cards being reported by twoof the gilgo fours housemates ). Where are these cards/system now - has it been revisited to crosscheck patterns I wonder?

MB also says that Mr Kipper was ' a white male, middle aged"'. Middle aged is not your early thirties IMO - its 40-50 years old.
 
  • #293
One of the reasons to doubt the sightings at 37SR is that they are quite possibly of several different men. He is described as smart and scruffy, with and without a broken nose, with long short hair and aged 25 to 30 but also 44, which was the Belgian diamond dealer's age. Rigging said he was a dead ringer for Kipper which is very odd considering he bore no similarity to the description he previously gave.

For my money at least one of the sightings is MG. Not all, but MG was smart and dark haired and went there that afternoon. One witness wasn't sure when he saw 'Kipper' except it was between 12 and 4. It seems quite plausible that this "corroborating" sighting was of MG.
 
  • #294
Yep, I think in AS’s book he recounts how Riglin described the Belgian as having the same ‘boyish’ good looks that Kipper had. Can you be a boyishly handsome middle aged man?

According to AS, MG went to Shorrolds Road twice that afternoon. The podcast mentions MG going there with a colleague. I don’t think AS mentions this, but I’m fairly certain I’ve read this before and I’m pretty sure the colleague was said to be female - I’m guessing it was SF. Could this have been the ‘couple’ witnesses supposedly sighted?

As much as MB had some clearly interesting things to say (like the Sunday night scenario) it basically is the same old same old.
So frustrating its like they have tunnel vision.
Do you think the hosts are limited to what they can ask /say?

Yeah, he was quite engaging on the whole but the whole thing felt pretty scripted to me, there were times when I felt he could’ve been probed for more info or to clarify things but these moments were generally allowed to pass by.

Eg, he thinks Cannan was the source of the Kipper name, rather than that it was dreamt up by Suzy - OK, so she faked the appointment, but not the name? Did she know Cannan as Kipper? And she never mentioned this guy, a man she was prepared to bunk off work to meet, with a highly unusual name, to anyone? How did she know how to contact him? Where did they go to ‘see’ one another? Etc etc.

As always we get a rough outline, a sketch, of a theory, fleshed out with a few bits of (dubious) info regarding Cannan, but never any more than that.
 
  • #295
Thank you for posting the podcast info, @kclevi. Can't wait for part 2!

The bit I didn't know before was that, according to MB, LE thought that Sjl had told AL that she was going to meet "with friends" on the Sunday evening. I'm assuming that this conversation took place earlier on Sunday, when the group were windsurfing.

We know from AS that after travelling home from the beach Sjl had visited her parents in East Sheen before driving home. She may then have made a phone call from the box en route outside the POW where she then mislaid her belongings. Am I right in thinking that LE/MB are inferring that the call was to "Kipper" arranging the meeting on Monday? Did I mishear that?

I'd thought the call, if indeed there was one, was to AL, summarily dumping him. If LE thought that the call was to Kipper, it supports the notion that Kipper and Sjl were known to each other.
 
  • #296
I thought the call, if indeed there was one, was to AL, summarily dumping him. If LE thought that the call was to Kipper, it supports the notion that Kipper and Sjl were known to each other.

Perhaps they thought she met with Kipper on the Sunday evening. Would she lie about meeting friends just to go and make a phonecall?

Maybe she meets (or even call him) on Sunday evening, arranging the lunch time meet for the following day. He calls her at work on Monday morning, and changes the meeting place from Shorrolds Road to Stevenage Road.

Suzy is in a remarkably cheerful mood, considering she has just lost out on a major work deal, so is her good mood because she's off to meet her wealthy new boyfriend?
 
  • #297
If she was calling ‘Kipper’ then presumably she’d have had his number written down somewhere, like in her diary? And if Suzy knew him as ‘Kipper’ she’d have had him down as that name too? I suppose it’s possible she had a number for him written down on a bit of paper and that bit of paper disappeared with her, but it seems a bit far fetched to me that she would’ve gone to such a length.
 
  • #298
Perhaps they thought she met with Kipper on the Sunday evening. Would she lie about meeting friends just to go and make a phonecall?

I thought it may just be a ruse to get AL off her back. I can't quite remember the timeline, but I'm guessing it would have been pretty late by the time she got back from visiting her parents. I know there's a theory that JC visited the POW and was there that Sunday night and I'm now wondering whether LE believe that they both were indeed there, and that it was indeed JC who lifted the belongings and planted them at the POW. Is it too far-fetched a theory?
 
  • #299
If she was calling ‘Kipper’ then presumably she’d have had his number written down somewhere, like in her diary? And if Suzy knew him as ‘Kipper’ she’d have had him down as that name too? I suppose it’s possible she had a number for him written down on a bit of paper and that bit of paper disappeared with her, but it seems a bit far fetched to me that she would’ve gone to such a length.
Unless he's under a different name in the diary? A false one - JC had a habit of using false names. The names he's known to have used are mundane ones though - like Peterson.
 
  • #300
Unless he's under a different name in the diary? A false one - JC had a habit of using false names. The names he's known to have used are mundane ones though - like Peterson.

One of his rape victims asked him what his name was, and he told her to call him Horse, which isn't exactly a mundane name.
 

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