UK UK - Suzy Lamplugh, 25, Fulham, 28 Jul 1986 #8

[Lady Stoddart-West]

Here's another crucial piece of data to be aware of;


The woman from (139?) Stevenage Road, who claimed to have seen SL walking (in her hat around "lunchtime") along Stevenage Road accompanied by a smartly dressed man, and who later sees SL again (by herself) in the front garden of a property in the neighbouring Langthorne Street, indicates that SL had spent some time in and around Stevenage Road with the man in the suit.

What's absolutely crucial about this, is that the woman states that she sees a woman in a hat walking "away from" the football ground.
Now, one would then assume that she witnessed SL and the suited man as they were all walking near to the football ground.

But that's wrong!

The witness ACTUALLY sees SL walking with the man in the suit, AFTER the couple have ALREADY walked north PAST the white Fiesta.

This is evidenced in the Crimewatch reconstruction, when the witness is seen walking around the corner and into Stevenage Road, and then immediately observes SL and the suited man walking alongside a wall on the other side of the road.

The witness has just walked out of Millshott Close.

Millshott close is at the cross junction of Stevenage Road and Langthorne Street.

This means that moments before the witness walks around that corner, SL and the suited man have EITHER just walked past the Fiesta, or SL has just got her hat out of the car and put it on, and then walked with the man towards Langthorne Street.

The witness misses this by a matter of seconds.

So in fact, the couple are seen walking AWAY FROM THE FIESTA.

Note, that when the same witness then returns to enter Millshott Close, she looks over the road and observes SL standing in the front garden of a property in Langthorne Street; which is of course immediately opposite Millshott Close.

Based on the reconstruction, the exact house that SL was seen standing in the front garden of; was 100 Langthorne Street.

However, based on the depth perception of the witness standing on the corner, SL may have instead been standing the garden of the 102 Langthorne Street.

And what's also interesting about 100 and 102 Langthorne Street respectively, is that since the 1980's/1990's, there have been around a dozen or so private companies who have used this address as their registered address.

That's a rabbit hole I'm not willing to go any further down.


But going back to my point; the witness who sees SL and the suited man, actually observes them AFTER they have walked away from the parked Fiesta, which the witness must walk past as she heads south down Stevenage Road.

It seems apparent to me, that Mr Kipper had gone back to Stevenage Road with SL, but rather than head back to the office, he has convinced her to look at more properties. She realises she needs to get back to the office, but because she wants to please her client, she agrees; but not before taking the hat out of her car so she can look appear incognito as she goes the extra mile to show Mr Kipper more houses in the vicinity of Stevenage Road.

Fascinating indeed

Brrt

Here's another crucial piece of data to be aware of;


The woman from (139?) Stevenage Road, who claimed to have seen SL walking (in her hat around "lunchtime") along Stevenage Road accompanied by a smartly dressed man, and who later sees SL again (by herself) in the front garden of a property in the neighbouring Langthorne Street, indicates that SL had spent some time in and around Stevenage Road with the man in the suit.

What's absolutely crucial about this, is that the woman states that she sees a woman in a hat walking "away from" the football ground.
Now, one would then assume that she witnessed SL and the suited man as they were all walking near to the football ground.

But that's wrong!

The witness ACTUALLY sees SL walking with the man in the suit, AFTER the couple have ALREADY walked north PAST the white Fiesta.

This is evidenced in the Crimewatch reconstruction, when the witness is seen walking around the corner and into Stevenage Road, and then immediately observes SL and the suited man walking alongside a wall on the other side of the road.

The witness has just walked out of Millshott Close.

Millshott close is at the cross junction of Stevenage Road and Langthorne Street.

This means that moments before the witness walks around that corner, SL and the suited man have EITHER just walked past the Fiesta, or SL has just got her hat out of the car and put it on, and then walked with the man towards Langthorne Street.

The witness misses this by a matter of seconds.

So in fact, the couple are seen walking AWAY FROM THE FIESTA.

Note, that when the same witness then returns to enter Millshott Close, she looks over the road and observes SL standing in the front garden of a property in Langthorne Street; which is of course immediately opposite Millshott Close.

Based on the reconstruction, the exact house that SL was seen standing in the front garden of; was 100 Langthorne Street.

However, based on the depth perception of the witness standing on the corner, SL may have instead been standing the garden of the 102 Langthorne Street.

And what's also interesting about 100 and 102 Langthorne Street respectively, is that since the 1980's/1990's, there have been around a dozen or so private companies who have used this address as their registered address.

That's a rabbit hole I'm not willing to go any further down.


But going back to my point; the witness who sees SL and the suited man, actually observes them AFTER they have walked away from the parked Fiesta, which the witness must walk past as she heads south down Stevenage Road.

It seems apparent to me, that Mr Kipper had gone back to Stevenage Road with SL, but rather than head back to the office, he has convinced her to look at more properties. She realises she needs to get back to the office, but because she wants to please her client, she agrees; but not before taking the hat out of her car so she can look incognito as she goes the extra mile to show Mr Kipper more houses in the vicinity of Stevenage Road.

Fascinating indeed

Very interesting & there hasn’t been enough scrutiny on Stevenage Rd sightings & timeline.

If we take WJ’s sighting of fiesta out of time line we have poss evidence of SL in road in 2-2:30pm sort of window. Poss too evidence that points towards some escalation or row.

2pm ish also when KH reports phone calls to pub & the fiesta being parked 2 mins from a phone box - where was it exactly? Interests me. Did either need to make a call.

MJ originally, as far as I know, didn’t flag anything about anyone wearing a hat or seeing anyone in a garden? Is this her exaggerating or elaborating in 2000 at time of case review OR another witness entirely?

Wearing a straw sun hat on a dull day is also a trifle odd. Did she habitually wear on viewings?

 

[lee sumner]

Detective Andrew Laptew actually went to Dick Holland and showed him Tracey Browne and others photo fits and told him he had just recently spoken to Sutcliffe and said he was a genuine suspect yet Holland acted like Billy Big balls, excoriated him and threatened him with the sack.

I take your point though that that is more arrogance than a genuine mistake though.

yes, laptew said the guvnors like oldfield and holland were like gods back then in 1970s. young officers were afraid to speak up to them. they were certainly not democratic.

 

[lee sumner]

Brrt

Very interesting & there hasn’t been enough scrutiny on Stevenage Rd sightings & timeline.

If we take WJ’s sighting of fiesta out of time line we have poss evidence of SL in road in 2-2:30pm sort of window. Poss too evidence that points towards some escalation or row.

2pm ish also when KH reports phone calls to pub & the fiesta being parked 2 mins from a phone box - where was it exactly? Interests me. Did either need to make a call.

MJ originally, as far as I know, didn’t flag anything about anyone wearing a hat or seeing anyone in a garden? Is this her exaggerating or elaborating in 2000 at time of case review OR another witness entirely?

Wearing a straw sun hat on a dull day is also a trifle odd. Did she habitually wear on viewings?

i thought the same regarding her hat. SL would not wear a hat for a viewing as it would be distracting to the client. its the kind of hat she probably wore to ascot or wimbledon.

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

That's assuming it was indeed him driving it though? Something of a sticking point perhaps?

I think I recall reading that he was indeed in Poole that weekend visiting Gilly Paige.

If he's guilty of Sandra's murder we also have to believe he was not tucked up in bed at he hostel where he should have been. Depends on how free and easy things were there.

All in all that's pretty good circumstantial evidence imho, especially if one adds in the trail of items and the letter, which imho smacks of JC.

I wonder what happened to the hair(s)? Could they be retested I wonder...perhaps a more accurate result with dna advances?

I also read I think on Lolly True Crime that someone else is now in the frame?

JC hadn’t yet met GP in May 86.

This May Bank Hol was SL’s B day weekend & she’d turned down a weekend away with someone, we don’t know who. Then SC is murdered.

The car parking ticket/s put him in Poole all weekend so presumably he stayed in a hotel (?) He likely had his father’s 2k inheritance & he’d started to spend. Interestingly he went to a car auction/s there - did anyone consider he bought a car, a BMW perhaps? JC denied all trips to Poole pre Sept/Oct 86. More lies.

If he met SL about May 86, some evidence here, he had enough time & money perhaps, to craft a the persona of successful business man & buy a few suits, use a hotel, as needed, even rent a flat short term. He used cash & aliases.

Evidence points to the hostel being laughably lax.

 

[Rookie D]

i thought the same regarding her hat. SL would not wear a hat for a viewing as it would be distracting to the client. its the kind of hat she probably wore to ascot or wimbledon.

It could also have been a way to deliberately draw some attention to herself if she felt under duress for any reason.

 

[Hexe]

i thought the same regarding her hat. SL would not wear a hat for a viewing as it would be distracting to the client. its the kind of hat she probably wore to ascot or wimbledon.

It was a plain straw hat, definitely not elegant enough for Ascot or Wimbledon.

 

[lee sumner]

I'm honestly not sure. I find it a bit difficult to believe that she could have been bundled into a car on Stevenage Road without being seen as well, but what if they drive to Stevenage Road and he suggests walking over to his car(if his car exists on the road) then once she is inside quickly putting her into a strangulation hold, killing her then driving away.

Alternatively, they could have driven somewhere in the Fiesta, he then kills her elsewhere and drives the Fiesta back to where it is found on Stevenage Road.

The 1st option is what happened, Imo, but you can't rule anything out or in.

l like option 2 better. they drive somewhere. SL is held captive at a location. he drives fiesta back to where it is found on stevenage rd like you said, then he picks up his own vehicle parked up close by possibly around the corner on langthorne rd, then back tracks to where he has SL held captive.

 

[EddietheEagle]

BBM. Per John Cannan"s Wikipedia page, a criminologist who was in correspondence with him alerted the Police to the fact that he had access to a Red Sierra at the time of the killing.

The article goes on to say that Police found Suzy's DNA in the car but couldn't place Cannan in the car at the same time so thus never prosecuted the case.

Since Wiki is an unreliable source I asked further upthread if anyone had seen this info from a more reliable source but no one has replied yet.

The 2007 Berry-Dee/Odell book has a section at the end (page 346 on) about the red Sierra. It states that SL's DNA was found in the car.

Cannan apparently denied to police he'd ever used this car. Police approached the book's authors and established from Cannan's copious correspondence with them, quite the opposite.

There's a degree of misinformation in msm around the DNA evidence. Was it SL's or SC's?

 

[lee sumner]

It was a plain straw hat, definitely not elegant enough for Ascot or Wimbledon.

i would not know. i have never been to wimbledon or ascot. i come from a working class background. iam a lone ranger, not a sloane ranger, ha, ha.

 

[Kasparthecat1]

Brrt

Very interesting & there hasn’t been enough scrutiny on Stevenage Rd sightings & timeline.

If we take WJ’s sighting of fiesta out of time line we have poss evidence of SL in road in 2-2:30pm sort of window. Poss too evidence that points towards some escalation or row.

2pm ish also when KH reports phone calls to pub & the fiesta being parked 2 mins from a phone box - where was it exactly? Interests me. Did either need to make a call.

MJ originally, as far as I know, didn’t flag anything about anyone wearing a hat or seeing anyone in a garden? Is this her exaggerating or elaborating in 2000 at time of case review OR another witness entirely?

Wearing a straw sun hat on a dull day is also a trifle odd. Did she habitually wear on viewings?

Do we know what time MJ's sighting was? And when did she come forward? The man was described as older I think? But fitting the description otherwise (smart, good looking).

Sceptical about behatted woman. It was a dull day, and if on a viewing I doubt Sjl would have worn a hat! Hats were for weddings, or the beach. And getting the hat back in the Fiesta requires either Sjl or her abductor to return to the car.

I think Barbara saw the hat on the shelf? I feel she's a credible witness, but I dunno...if correct Sjl is alive and well at 2.45, two hours after leaving the office.

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

The 2007 Berry-Dee/Odell book has a section at the end (page 346 on) about the red Sierra. It states that SL's DNA was found in the car.

Cannan apparently denied to police he'd ever used this car. Police approached the book's authors and established from Cannan's copious correspondence with them, quite the opposite.

There's a degree of misinformation in msm around the DNA evidence. Was it SL's or SC's?

This is not proven & factually incorrect re: SL DNA being found in car. I say that with certainty as I followed up. It is definite.

What isn’t clear is whether SC’s family were tested for comparison re: hair found in car, JD is a bit ambiguous on it in doc ‘The Man Who Killed S L’. You would imagine so from what he said on doc. It would be good to have more clarity from him on this when/if he’s next interviewed.

More could be done re: DNA testing on hair today in theory.

 

[lee sumner]

The 2007 Berry-Dee/Odell book has a section at the end (page 346 on) about the red Sierra. It states that SL's DNA was found in the car.

Cannan apparently denied to police he'd ever used this car. Police approached the book's authors and established from Cannan's copious correspondence with them, quite the opposite.

There's a degree of misinformation in msm around the DNA evidence. Was it SL's or SC's?

The Crimewatch SJL reconstruction of SJL if anyone wants to refresh their memory.

WJ noticed SL fiesta parked up across the road. why would she have noticed it. it was badly parked yes, but you cant tell that from her kitchen window, and if it really stood out like she said, then why did she not go over to have a look at the vehicle, or ring the police to report a possible stolen car nearly obstructing her friends garage entrance.

 

[lee sumner]

Also is that taxi driver the one who reported his fare as the irishman?? And if so he was there at the time.

there were 2 reconstructions filmed. 1st 1 week later, DCI carter reconstruction. 2nd. crimewatch UK. oct 1986.

 

[GTB72]

The 2007 Berry-Dee/Odell book has a section at the end (page 346 on) about the red Sierra. It states that SL's DNA was found in the car.

Cannan apparently denied to police he'd ever used this car. Police approached the book's authors and established from Cannan's copious correspondence with them, quite the opposite.

There's a degree of misinformation in msm around the DNA evidence. Was it SL's or SC's?

BBM. Thank you for confirming that. The wiki page also states that 2 hairs from SC was found in the Red Sierra. I wonder where that info came from if not from this book?

 

[lee sumner]

This is not proven & factually incorrect re: SL DNA being found in car. I say that with certainty as I followed up. It is definite.

What isn’t clear is whether SC’s family were tested for comparison re: hair found in car, JD is a bit ambiguous on it in doc ‘The Man Who Killed S L’. You would imagine so from what he said on doc. It would be good to have more clarity from him on this when/if he’s next interviewed.

More could be done re: DNA testing on hair today in theory.

you can only get DNA off hair if its attached to the root. a simple strand of hair wont get DNA.

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

BBM. Thank you for confirming that. The wiki page also states that 2 hairs from SC was found in the Red Sierra. I wonder where that info came from if not from this book?

you can only get DNA off hair if its attached to the root. a simple strand of hair wont get DNA.

Not so anymore, it can be extracted without a root. Hence it may be worth revisiting here. Presumably they have/had a root originally to attempt earlier extraction re: DNA.

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

BBM. Thank you for confirming that. The wiki page also states that 2 hairs from SC was found in the Red Sierra. I wonder where that info came from if not from this book?

This is all true but apparently factually incorrect or mistaken. JD does back this up in the doc ‘The Man Who Killed S L’ where he states DNA might look to support the SC enquiry. NB: I do think CBD reporting in good faith at time here.

 

[GTB72]

This is all true but apparently factually incorrect or mistaken. JD does back this up in the doc ‘The Man Who Killed S L’ where he states DNA might look to support the SC enquiry. NB: I do think CBD reporting in good faith at time here.

Thanks for the clarification. I accept you think the dna angle is actually factually incorrect and/or mistaken but I was just trying to pin down the actual source of the wiki info because I hadn't heard the dna angle before.

Looks as if I'll need to watch the doc you suggest and get Prime Suspect as well.

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

Thanks for the clarification. I accept you think the dna angle is actually factually incorrect and/or mistaken but I was just trying to pin down the actual source of the wiki info because I hadn't heard the dna angle before.

Looks as if I'll need to watch the doc you suggest and get Prime Suspect as well.

For sure. Be great to discuss. I have long said they should be able to use DNA tech advances now on hair to help enquiry and also on letter envelope to rule JC in or out for that relatively easily. Assuming exhibit well kept etc. They were trying with a thumb print on the fiesta last time I heard - presumably with JC comparison in mind.

 

[Kasparthecat1]

JC hadn’t yet met GP in May 86.

This May Bank Hol was SL’s B day weekend & she’d turned down a weekend away with someone, we don’t know who. Then SC is murdered.

The car parking ticket/s put him in Poole all weekend so presumably he stayed in a hotel (?) He likely had his father’s 2k inheritance & he’d started to spend. Interestingly he went to a car auction/s there - did anyone consider he bought a car, a BMW perhaps? JC denied all trips to Poole pre Sept/Oct 86. More lies.

If he met SL about May 86, some evidence here, he had enough time & money perhaps, to craft a the persona of successful business man & buy a few suits, use a hotel, as needed, even rent a flat short term. He used cash & aliases.

Evidence points to the hostel being laughably lax.

Ah OK. So not GP then? This the weekend Sjl went to Wales with her family?