UK UK - Suzy Lamplugh, 25, Fulham, 28 Jul 1986 #8

[GTB72]

It came as no surprise when Pitchfork was re-apprehended and put back in prison. Where he clearly needs to stay.

The issue is; and always has been, that some individuals simply cannot be rehabilitated.

A 25 year "life" sentence should be a time-based punishment that acknowledges the crime.

But once that 25 years is reached, then anyone like Pitchfork, Cannan, Wright, Halliwell, Huntley, etc...etc... need to be kept behind bars for "LIFE."

We're not talking about someone who has robbed committed bank fraud, or sold drugs, we are talking about individuals who are inherently evil.

The idea that any one of those individuals in the list above could be "rehabilitated" and then subject to a parole board meeting to decide if the can be released or transferred to an open prison, is an utter joke.

The "system" that facilitates potential parole for those who appear to have shown good behaviour in prison, isn't fit for purpose.

These individuals are predators, and they simply don't have the capacity for change. It's not how they're wired.

In terms of SL, it seems highly likely that she succumbed to a man who exhibited those predatory traits; the fact she actually worked with one of them on a cruise ship; wasn't likely to have been her killer, means that SL was somehow unlucky enough to have met at least 2 psychopaths over her lifetime. Being a magnet to multiple psychopath, is as unlucky as she could have got.


But at least 2 of those listed above are no longer around to pose a threat to anyone else.

BBM. Or psychopaths are incredibly adept at spotting potential victims.

I remember watching a documentary about Peter Tobin and his wife(in the late 60's) and she said that he seemed capable of spotting potential victims as if they had that word tattooed on their head.

 

[Rookie D]

Why was the 2nd photo fit (as witnessed by Doyle) altered?

The jaw line was switched from a wide set lower jaw, to a more streamlined Jaw; as per the original e-fit drawing.

This is evidenced by the colour version shown on Crimewatch having been altered from the black and white wide set Jaw version, that was printed beforehand.


Technically, that makes 3 different photo fits, and not just the 2.

 

[tes1984]

These are the minimum sentences for some 80s and 90s UK murderers.

John Cannan 40 years (reduced to 35 on appeal).
Donald Robertson 30 years.
Colin Pitchfork 30 years (reduced to 28).
Colin Campbell 24 years.
Christopher Hampton 22 years.
Marc Shillibier 22 years.
Sandip Patel 19 years.

 

[GTB72]

For me the photofit looks much more like VV, posted upthread but otherwise hard to disagree. Champagne & roses all far more common re: wooing & deal sealing culturally in 80s.

For me it’s the absurd way JC constructed a elaborate story about SB’s killer also being SL’s when on the ropes. Barley “Was that man you, John (?)” “YES” (JC) “I mean, no”…JC, “Yes, I bought SL killer’s car - stolen from SB - even though a rust bucket & I can’t tell you about Bristol car auctions & it had a broken driver’s door & only good for scrap” effectively what he said…

The changing alibis & the fact he couldn’t account for a good few days.

The fact he was looking to buy a house - jointly? - with Sue on fringes of Peabody Estate .
The fact he said he didn’t know Fulham, apparently & had never been.

The Doc ‘The Man Who Killed S L’ is misleading IMO & frames & pushes JC in a way that that ultimately casts doubt on his culpability which is counter intuitive. NB: Woman that says he was charming & knew him socially from Super Hire almost in the same frame as the POW. Anyone might assume she was staff there at POW. Much more like this.

SA, a DI from memory, a very intelligent man on the fence on JC but slowly & surely utterly convinced.

For me, that said, it just might be someone else, hitherto overlooked, in plain sight & close proximity. But as the police say ‘killers’ are rare. Oddballs, not so much. Would VT have been overlooked in 86 re: Jo Yeates?

Would the police have discovered VT?

IMO there are still things, events that trouble police re: explaining JC’s ultimate responsibility & worrying unanswered questions.

Great post. The interview with Barley I had forgotten about but adds more weight to my mind that JC was culpable.

Re VV, I agree. Photo fit definitely resembles him. I remember reading his autobiography back in the day(sorry can't remember its name) and the sexism and misogyny in the first few pages was palpable. He came across as a thoughally repugnant individual. Him and JC would have got on quite well.

 

[rvlvr]

What do people think is best & strongest evidence re: JC?

He was obviously a very violent and manipulative man. Clearly he was capable of murdering her (if we assume she was indeed murdered).

I think the biggest issue we and the police have (and we’ve discussed this before) is a lack of a working theory. We don’t know if Suzy was chosen at random, was this something of an opportunistic crime? How much planning went into this? Was Suzy of the impression that the appointment was genuine? Was she going there to meet someone? Was this someone a lover, maybe a business partner? Sadly, we’ve no idea.

Barley talks in the podcast about the possibility of a clandestine meeting on the Sunday. And it’s a decent shout - I think she probably did meet up with someone that evening. But we can’t be sure this meeting actually happened - and even if it did, what’s to say that the person she met would go on to kill her the following day?

This is why it’s so difficult to ‘pin’ this on Cannan. In the Sandra Court case, at least we have a body, and we can sketch out a rough idea of what might’ve happened, and we can place Cannan in proximity to the crime. Even then it’s not clear cut, though I do think if he had other victims then Sandra would be a good shout for being one of them. But what we know for certain about Suzy’s case wouldn’t even fill half a page of A4 paper, which is quite astonishing really.

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

He was obviously a very violent and manipulative man. Clearly he was capable of murdering her (if we assume she was indeed murdered).

I think the biggest issue we and the police have (and we’ve discussed this before) is a lack of a working theory. We don’t know if Suzy was chosen at random, was this something of an opportunistic crime? How much planning went into this? Was Suzy of the impression that the appointment was genuine? Was she going there to meet someone? Was this someone a lover, maybe a business partner? Sadly, we’ve no idea.

Barley talks in the podcast about the possibility of a clandestine meeting on the Sunday. And it’s a decent shout - I think she probably did meet up with someone that evening. But we can’t be sure this meeting actually happened - and even if it did, what’s to say that the person she met would go on to kill her the following day?

This is why it’s so difficult to ‘pin’ this on Cannan. In the Sandra Court case, at least we have a body, and we can sketch out a rough idea of what might’ve happened, and we can place Cannan in proximity to the crime. Even then it’s not clear cut, though I do think if he had other victims then Sandra would be a good shout for being one of them. But what we know for certain about Suzy’s case wouldn’t even fill half a page of A4 paper, which is quite astonishing really.

Do the police have evidence SL saw someone on Sunday night after her parents? It’s long been mooted & I took from podcast -recent with Barley - that they DO. Barley also added SL gave AL a false alibi about her movements later on Sunday night. I’ve just realised this is PRECISELY what she did a couple of weeks before when she spent night with expat. The ‘friends’ she told AL she was with denied they saw her when questioned by police.

The expat is ‘X’ in AS & not named - most are. That’s interesting & suggests at his request.

As AL made clear their 10.15pm conversation was discussing expat’s party logistics, not for a couple of days & hardly urgent, to suggest SL totally unfamiliar with both expat & his flat. She wasn’t. Then AS changed some factual detail & I think Sun became Fri re: lost things etc…Her seeing expat on Sun night becomes v plausible. DV pondered if she saw ‘new relationship’ man etc…

If there were these changes & face saving alterations, & I think there were, it muddles timeline & things get lost. AS may have felt inconsequential timeline change/s but I’d argue they’ve proved anything but. Do the police know she saw expat? Possibly, & Interpol involved as he was back overseas by time cogs turned. AL stepped up as acceptable boyfriend & campaign to find wholesome young woman priority.

Given NB has suggested AL wasn’t s steady, current boyfriend & she’d spent 2 weekends prior with other men might fit. She’d told the office about spending night with expat & to others, she was planning to dump AL. Might fit. First and foremost, AL was a loyal friend for 2 years. Interestingly then SL lied about not spending night with expat to AL, she lied about this again on Sun night? Not exactly a stretch…

SL said both she & expat got separate taxis back from Roof Gardens only to meet again early in the morning on Sunday at his flat (!)

The ‘man’ behind the shady sounding deal never found & again her parents kept the less vanilla & more problematic initially from police. Although SL didn’t share much her parents good opinion mattered to her & may have caused her to U turn.

JC was ‘buying’ a property with Sue, or helping her, on edge of Peabody Estate. She strikes me as a very important witness indeed!

He also had form for business deals with AR. IF JC had his father’s legacy he could fully lean in to his ‘Peterson’ persona, the successful businessman who ‘has achieved all he wanted professionally…NB: dating agency video.

Have the police gone through that contact book with aliases that came to light later for JC? They include: Jessop, Bryant, Peterson etc?

He does on to say he doesn’t like women who have a high opinion of themselves & not humble, everyday & ordinary ‘I don’t like that!’ Note the flash of anger there!…

SL was anything but ordinary. One of the reasons DT survived I think was because she was ordinary & stayed calm, sharing a cigarette post rape etc! Incredibly courageous.

If SL pulled out of a JC deal & red mist descended…There’s the motive, If he had money saved and father’s legacy he might even have had a short term let somewhere. He had form for these too.

 

[WestLondoner]

I understand DV thinks the BW sighting at 2.45 is a false flag. I am actually of a mind to think that myself but I don't want to box myself in on that regard.

What's your take on that?

Apologies if you have already explained this rationale before but I'm quite new to the thread and would lbe grateful.

Not at all.

DV's theory requires SJL herself never to have gone near Stevenage Road, so it doesn't accommodate the BW sighting. It's just that BW is hard to dismiss because she knew SJL, reported what she saw within 5 days and was then explained away by plod as "probably remembered a different day". This is the explanation DV accepts.

He thinks CV / KH killed her, drove her car to 123SR and dumped it there - a theory that doesn't accommodate any of the other sightings there, either. He's not alone in this blind spot, because all theories require the dismissal of one or more witness accounts that don't fit.

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

Not at all.

DV's theory requires SJL herself never to have gone near Stevenage Road, so it doesn't accommodate the BW sighting. It's just that BW is hard to dismiss because she knew SJL, reported what she saw within 5 days and was then explained away by plod as "probably remembered a different day". This is the explanation DV accepts.

He thinks CV / KH killed her, drove her car to 123SR and dumped it there - a theory that doesn't accommodate any of the other sightings there, either. He's not alone in this blind spot, because all theories require the dismissal of one or more witness accounts that don't fit.

On BW, they went to her office, went through all her appointments to check for mistakes (!) in person & questioned her colleagues. She remained totally convinced. The fact this was first day of the working week makes it even less likely she’d muddled days!

Does DV think KH/CV was ‘Galway’ a-like do you think? Leaving scene.

 

[WestLondoner]

Cannan as a serial rapist and killer

We only know of one killing for sure, though.

There's a lot of circumstantial evidence that supports Cannan as the culprit

There is, but there's no account of what played out that fits with the sightings. It's really just "he was a wrong 'un in the area".

the question is if she knew that and was willingly stealing an hour or two with a lover

Our female contributors have acutely pointed out that if was doing that she'd have taken a hairbrush.

a cheapo bad boy Cannan's style would not be anywhere close to her orbit of interest.

He was able to fake it in short bursts, though.

His previous criminal record re the killing of SB

That was after SJL, not before.

 

[GTB72]

We only know of one killing for sure, though.

There is, but there's no account of what played out that fits with the sightings. It's really just "he was a wrong 'un in the area".

Our female contributors have acutely pointed out that if was doing that she'd have taken a hairbrush.

He was able to fake it in short bursts, though.

That was after SJL, not before.

Indeed. My bad. I was meaning more that he was capable of murder but looking back at it from what we know today. Should have been more clear.

 

[Rookie D]

We only know of one killing for sure, though.

Allow me to grammatically rephrase from my original statement...

"Cannan was a serial rapist and killer."

I meant to say...

"Cannan was a serial rapist, and also a killer."

The emphasis being on him having a penchant for raping women, but also him having been a killer; just not necessarily a serial one.

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

I'd tend to agree with this - more so that there's no real evidence (perhaps because the Met didn't look for it at the time) that Cannan had anywhere to take SL and if he did kill SL and managed to conceal the whole crime including getting rid of her remains so they are never found - this doesn't match up with any of his other criminal efforts where he was impulsive and sloppy.

I'm happy to keep an open mind but feel SL was likely abducted by someone much more organised and capable than Cannan, with whom she'd got involved in a property deal. The deal was on her mind that weekend. She was up to something on the Sunday night. And if she did lose her diary etc on the Friday as has been reported - how did she contact whoever she met that evening?


I just can't see where they could have met and talked and met more than once. He did go to a public school and could probably pretend to be posh for a while but he was living in a prison hostel for goodness sake. I honestly don't think he had the skills or resources to pull a long con on SL.

She was talking about a property deal that had apparently nothing to do with her day job. A joint purchase. No one knows with whom. Going on arranged "dates" with wealthy men set up for her by an older friend.

The dating video shows JC was articulate & had a veneer. If he had access to his father’s legacy & rented somewhere for a week or two things all become more plausible. Maybe even out of town, keeping her for a few nights like SB. SL wouldn’t have been too fussy if he had the means, was behind the deal & could push her up the property ladder. As you say the ‘contract’ is key.

The police thought he was familiar with Poole car auctions did he buy a cheap BMW that May bank hol? When he was there.

 

[lee sumner]

That was apparently DH on pact, her fondest & enduring love, not JH, but who knows re: JH too? I guess it made sense for JH & SL to go together as both had QE2 in common with marrying couple. They’d all worked together.

yes, DH was SL real love/soulmate, but it did not stop SL playing around with JH.

 

[lee sumner]

That was apparently DH on pact, her fondest & enduring love, not JH, but who knows re: JH too? I guess it made sense for JH & SL to go together as both had QE2 in common with marrying couple. They’d all worked together.

I thought it was JH, not DH.

 

[Rookie D]

What if SL never even left Fulham?


If SL's Fiesta was seen parked up in Stevenage Road at 3.30pm by WJ, but SL was seen 45 minutes earlier driving her car on the Fulham Palace Road by BW, then if the man in the suit was indeed her abductor, he only had a relatively small timeframe in which to subdue SL and put her body somewhere, before then driving SL's car BACK to Stevenage Road and then leaving the area, BEFORE WJ then sees the car again at 3.30pm.

The key to my hypothesis here, is that the Fiesta is MOVED between the 2pm sighting by the Taxi cab, and 3.30pm when WJ returns home.

Without the BW sighting, it would appear that the abduction takes place shortly after 1pm, but BW's sighting is something that the killer perhaps hadn't counted on.

It means that SL is still alive at 2.45pm

So, if SL drives to another location; perhaps another house, or somewhere that the abductor can strike, it means that this location can't be too far from Stevenage Road, because the car is parked back in Stevenage Road by 3.30pm.

But why would the man choose to abduct and murder SL after 2.45pm, after having had plenty of chance to do so back in the empty flat in Shorrold's Road? The longer the time frame and the more places the couple visit, the more chance the killer has of being seen by more witnesses.

Why take that chance?

Why not just kill SL in 37SR?

Is the man deliberately confusing the investigation by knowing that if there are too many sightings, then it will dumbfound the police?

Does killing SL in 37SR make the job of the police far easier?

I think it does, because there would no doubt be forensic evidence left in 37SR.

And so by creating multiple faux locations, the killer's strategy acts as a series of decoys that amount to one confusing sequence of events.

And what would be the purpose of driving the car back to Stevenage Road?

Well, I think the same applies here. The killer drove the car back to Stevenage Road because he knew that the police would never think for a second that the car had been moved and then driven back and parked up in the same spot.

By parking the car back in Stevenage Road, the police will focus their attentions on that area in particular.

But it's the potential location that SL drove to after 2.45pm that is perhaps the key to it all.

There was no evidence of a struggle having taken place in the car, and so it seems likely that when seen by BW, SL was driving to another location with the man in the suit.

So where could this be?

Well, any empty flat, garage, lock up...or building site.

I have a few ideas of where SL could be, and I think that she never left Fulham.

The case has IMO been one big example of how misdirection can be so effective.

But as I've eluded to before; thinking like the police has its limitations; whereas thinking like the killer frees the mind in some way, as it encourages one to look outside the box and see through the fog that has drowned this case for far too long.

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

I thought it was JH, not

I thought it was JH, not DH.

I think JH just an ex. DH was enduring. You may be right, poss something similar applied for both.

 

[lee sumner]

The dating video shows JC was articulate & had a veneer. If he had access to his father’s legacy & rented somewhere for a week or two things all become more plausible. Maybe even out of town, keeping her for a few nights like SB. SL wouldn’t have been too fussy if he had the means, was behind the deal & could push her up the property ladder. As you say the ‘contract’ is key.

The police thought he was familiar with Poole car auctions did he buy a cheap BMW that May bank hol? When he was there.

on dating video JC was using words he did not understand. despite coming from a educated background.

 

[lee sumner]

I think JH just an ex. DH was enduring. You may be right, poss something similar applied for both.

it does not make SL sound very loyal as a girlfriend.

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

on dating video JC was using words he did not understand. despite coming from a educated background.

He only applied himself to what he liked, apparently. You’re right, ‘sedimentary period’ comes to mind!

However, many assume this meant he was stupid. I don’t think so. AR was highly intelligent & it didn’t put her off. We also shouldn’t underestimate his charisma & charm at our peril.

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

it does not make SL sound very loyal as a girlfriend.

Well it’s perhaps evidence AL was more loyal, family friend by this point than steady boyfriend. As I said upthread, SL had stayed away at weekend with two different men in last 3 weeks or so - although I think JH a buddy, she discussed an additional married man in car journey with JH. I think SL played by own rules & AL knew & protected her.

This might be a reason we have Sunday swapped to Fri re: lost things & a confused timeline.