UK UK - Suzy Lamplugh, 25, Fulham, 28 Jul 1986 #8

[Lady Stoddart-West]

@rvlvr a few thoughts on JC guilt or otherwise.

1. Where was he between Fri night & late the following week which he was first officially alibied? Barley says he showed someone a Bristol train ticket? The facts are no one could account solidly for his whereabouts including him.

2. The canal dumping witness. The man who saw the man who looked like JC was very convinced & tried to report to police who didn’t log, apparently, at time. He travelled to get a glimpse of JC at SB trial he was that dedicated & became even more convinced.

3. Is it JC’s MO to hold someone captive for a day or more? Yes re: SB. The call SB was presumably forced to make to work stopped immediate alarm. She called in sick. Had SL made him realise this was necessary? Did he alter his MO because of SL? He can’t have expected such a speedy police response re: SL & sought to avoid re: SB (?)

4. The mystery joint deal. Was JC the person encouraging her to buy a property she couldn’t otherwise afford? He poss had inheritance from father to look & act part long enough to hook her. Her parents thought whoever was behind deal was her killer. If she confided in her uncle she may have confided in others (?) Poss she planned to discuss with PSS over lunch. Presumably she needed to get her flat under offer asap. NB: x3 failed attempts.

JC had form for scoping out business ideas, property etc. NB: management consultancy AR.

Possible next steps for police & investigation:

1. Look again at DNA on hair found in sierra re: SC & SL. Techniques have improved. Rule a match in or out conclusively for both if poss.

2. If envelope exists for SC confession letter rule JC in or out for this re: stamp/flap. There’s fairly good evidence he killed SC & wrote this letter. Prove this, if possible & give closure at least to SC & family.

3. Contacts book for SL & diaries - look again at all numbers/names & search up in newspapers - small ads etc - with particular emphasis on the mystery ‘joint purchaser’. Is there a hotel number/numbers amongst them? Could that fit re: JC’s unaccounted for few days.

4. JC novels written in prison - get someone with a very detailed knowledge of case from earliest days to have a look at these. Has he left a clue?

5. Chequebook - as per diaries & contacts. Presumably all carefully checked in 1986 & hopefully rechecked re: Phoebus again in 2000 (!?) Who was she paying & why. All accounted for?

6. Postcard - IF from DH or diary entries proclaiming particular enduring love about DH, (AS/police said she loved him above all others - how did they know & did they pick this up from this postcard & contact book?) could this be why JC used his particular surname to pin murder of SL, someone else ‘and another girl’, on? Assuming JC had sight of these items.

7. SW - a current focus/interest as wife says it’s poss his feet on ground in UK/area. Were his contact details in her book etc?

Am sure others could be added.

JC’s banking & ‘hole in the wall’ cash withdrawal records

The police were able to put JC in Reading in 87, at right day/time, due to JC’s cash withdrawals on day. Re: DT.

They were able to get a log of JC’s movements by logging cash withdrawals re: SB in Bristol.

Presumably they tried & failed in July 86 re: SL? Was tech not there then.

@WestLondoner you said, I think you said Phoebus was about adding JC to list of suspects. Other suspects were eliminated (?) Do we know who any of the earlier others were? Any in public domain.

 

[EddietheEagle]

It's good to see the thread back on a more reasoned, logical path again.

Apropos the keys. If the appointment at Shorrolds Road was genuine, then obviously SL left with the keys. Had the appointment been a ruse, she would also have taken the keys. By all accounts, SL was artful. She wasn't, however, stupid.

Tales of keys not being taken and dismissing the statement of a highly experienced SIO regarding the keys, a detective with several successful murder inquiries to his name, is simply fanciful.

The keys disappeared along with SL, possibly kept hidden by JC as a trophy after he killed her, or dumped. Other keys were later found in his possession that have never been accounted for.

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

It's good to see the thread back on a more reasoned, logical path again.

Apropos the keys. If the appointment at Shorrolds Road was genuine, then obviously SL left with the keys. Had the appointment been a ruse, she would also have taken the keys. By all accounts, SL was artful. She wasn't, however, stupid.

Tales of keys not being taken and dismissing the statement of a highly experienced SIO regarding the keys, a detective with several successful murder inquiries to his name, is simply fanciful.

The keys disappeared along with SL, possibly kept hidden by JC as a trophy after he killed her, or dumped. Other keys were later found in his possession that have never been accounted for.

I agree & think there are other areas much more worthy of our attention & focus. On balance I think I’m with you.

That said, what DV said about mechanisms & logging for keys & rather strange/inefficient practice of putting spare sets of keys on same ring as master - spot on, IME. It’s counter intuitive of course but was the reality.

The vendor had provided only one set of keys & it was a new instruction - not much time for admin wheels to turn & demand necessitating new sets to be cut.

There was a set of keys for 37 apparently still in office. If she didn’t take keys it points to a last minute plan or necessary ruse & being in somewhat of a fluster. That might fit with the half sitting, half standing call.

 

[Rookie D]

I know relatively little about this particular case compared to some the members on this thread, and I am grateful for your combined knowledge, as it feels very much like this thread is on the right track.

Could the reason why SL didn't take the keys, be because she wasn't looking to meet a client to sell, but rather, she was looking to meet another estate agent and was looking to buy?

Could SL have been the client herself?

If "Mr Kipper" was a faux estate agent, could he have been using a ruse to sell a property to her overseas?

SL then goes to meet him to discuss terms, but because she doesn't want to go through her own firm, she has to be discreet to some extent.

I apologise in advance if my approach seems rather discordant from the general flow of the thread, but sometimes I find that asking questions from someone who knows relatively little about the finer details of the case, can sometimes help to look at things from a different perspective.

 

[rvlvr]

I agree & think there are other areas much more worthy of our attention & focus. On balance I think I’m with you.

That said, what DV said about mechanisms & logging for keys & rather strange/inefficient practice of putting spare sets of keys on same ring as master - spot on, IME. It’s counter intuitive of course but was the reality.

The vendor had provided only one set of keys & it was a new instruction - not much time for admin wheels to turn & demand necessitating new sets to be cut.

There was a set of keys for 37 apparently still in office. If she didn’t take keys it points to a last minute plan or necessary ruse & being in somewhat of a fluster. That might fit with the half sitting, half standing call.

Agreed. DV’s interview with DS Ryan, who in 2019 was in charge of Suzy’s case (I believe he’s now retired), was fairly revealing, I thought. Obviously we only have DV’s telling of the story to go on, so have to treat it with some caution, but when the issue of the keys came up during their discussion he appeared to concede that DV and ‘Caroline’ were on to something (chapter 55):

‘And Suzy didn’t have the key for the house showing either, did she?’ Caroline pushed on as she smiled at him, recognisably happy with her progress so far.

‘Well, we assumed she did have the keys.’ Ryan let out a sigh before continuing. ‘Because her manager went round to 37 Shorrolds Road and knocked on the door on the day to see if she was there.’

Ryan was referring to Mark Gurdon, who had originally said in his witness statement that he had gone to 37 Shorrolds Road looking for Suzy when he’d discovered the entry in her diary after she’d gone missing. Gurdon’s assumption had been, at the time, that the key was missing, and that Suzy must have had it with her.

But our investigation had revealed something entirely different.

‘So how did the police’s own scenes of crime officer get inside 37 Shorrolds Road to forensicate the property the next day with the key, if Suzy had disappeared, taking that key with her?’ Caroline asked.

‘We, er, don’t know where those keys came from,’ Ryan admitted awkwardly.

‘They came from the estate agent’s,’ Caroline stated. We knew there was only one key. Mark Gurdon had told us so.

‘So,’ Ryan started, sounding a little defeated, ‘you’ve got that bit too. We don’t know where the keys came from,’ he conceded. ‘So yeah, the… so we don’t know where the… so…’ Ryan stumbled over the end of his sentence, seemingly unsure how to finish it.

If we assume Ryan did his homework prior to the meeting with DV then “we don’t know where the keys came from” is quite a line, in my view.

 

[Konstantin]

I mean, the keys might have come from the owner who left a spare set with a neighbour. I don't think this is necessarily that significant but it's an interesting thing to consider. Certainly the focus on believing SL went to Shorrolds when there were signs she may have not gone there at all does seem to have closed off or reduced other avenues of investigation.

The last minute call she had might have been a change of plan, but she didn't seem to take keys to any other property.

If this was a random Russian roulette fake client who called estate agents and hoped to lure a female estate agent into an empty property - then that doesn't quite seem to fit with the admittedly few facts that exist. But it could be what happened. SL thought he was a bona fide client and was just unlucky.

Lunchtime seems a very risky time of day to pull a stunt like that but JC did far riskier and stupider things. But it just doesn't seem to make sense. He couldn't lure her into a house and attack her without her seeing his face and being able to identify him.

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

Agreed. DV’s interview with DS Ryan, who in 2019 was in charge of Suzy’s case (I believe he’s now retired), was fairly revealing, I thought. Obviously we only have DV’s telling of the story to go on, so have to treat it with some caution, but when the issue of the keys came up during their discussion he appeared to concede that DV and ‘Caroline’ were on to something (chapter 55):



If we assume Ryan did his homework prior to the meeting with DV then “we don’t know where the keys came from” is quite a line, in my view.

Yes, very good points re: on police (Ryan) seemingly tacitly agreeing on 37’s keys to DV.

It was the way keys were dealt with at time. Inefficient as it sounds. Which backs this up. Even now some London agencies have all spares on one ring for viewings as some may know if they’ve had to sift a dozen keys to open a door!

DV said the police accepted most of his new discoveries. Arguably some poss not as new and revelatory as seemed. The police, Ryan, etc,could not agree however, on KH, ‘cellar’ etc. I come back to point if DV seriously expected a KH arrest & had full dossier he presumably had much more that wasn’t in book? He’ll have known what threshold was. Not suggesting KH involvement here personally.

IF it was an invented viewing - & police did seriously consider this at time we do know -& she didn’t take keys to reinforce - it suggests a speedy response perhaps to an unfolding situation, that last call…

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

I mean, the keys might have come from the owner who left a spare set with a neighbour. I don't think this is necessarily that significant but it's an interesting thing to consider. Certainly the focus on believing SL went to Shorrolds when there were signs she may have not gone there at all does seem to have closed off or reduced other avenues of investigation.

The last minute call she had might have been a change of plan, but she didn't seem to take keys to any other property.

If this was a random Russian roulette fake client who called estate agents and hoped to lure a female estate agent into an empty property - then that doesn't quite seem to fit with the admittedly few facts that exist. But it could be what happened. SL thought he was a bona fide client and was just unlucky.

Lunchtime seems a very risky time of day to pull a stunt like that but JC did far riskier and stupider things.

They needed to bottom out the property buying partner which steers away from spur of moment JC (although I have an open mind on JC - if him I think odds good he was this mystery purchaser known to her) abduction or other spontaneous perp to my mind. It was thought he was ‘Kipper’ & he’s never been identified. Her last words to parents were on him & the evolving situation she wasn’t free to talk about & she’d spoken about the pressure she felt to her uncle.

To add JC as MO did insist on absolute secrecy. GP meeting him in Dorset hotel used his real name and/or disclosed what she was doing to family & he got very angry indeed!

The owner said only one set & the E agents had. Although as expat poss a key to neighbours sensible but none consulted AFAIK. As you say poss neither here nor there as someone seemed to be outside at about the right time but all expected a regular viewing there. All witnesses days later.

 

[RichardKimble]

Good points but I think the odds are very good too, ‘Kipper’ was the man putting her under pressure (as relayed to uncle) the last conversation with parents ‘don’t ask me about it, I’ll tell you about it when I can’. The property she couldn’t otherwise afford, the joint purchaser ‘client’. He was never found & didn’t come forward.

It seems almost impossible that he didn’t have any contact details. He needed to be identified & elimimated.

Our eldest daughter is the same, I'll tell you if you need to know, very hard to pin down, despite mum wanting to seem close were they actually.

 

[RichardKimble]

I know relatively little about this particular case compared to some the members on this thread, and I am grateful for your combined knowledge, as it feels very much like this thread is on the right track.

Could the reason why SL didn't take the keys, be because she wasn't looking to meet a client to sell, but rather, she was looking to meet another estate agent and was looking to buy?

Could SL have been the client herself?

If "Mr Kipper" was a faux estate agent, could he have been using a ruse to sell a property to her overseas?

SL then goes to meet him to discuss terms, but because she doesn't want to go through her own firm, she has to be discreet to some extent.

I apologise in advance if my approach seems rather discordant from the general flow of the thread, but sometimes I find that asking questions from someone who knows relatively little about the finer details of the case, can sometimes help to look at things from a different perspective.

Welcome, personally any new idea is welcome, I think we're all of the same mind that possibly Cannan did for SJL but with out concrete evidence other possible suspects must be taken in to account, all opinion.

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

Our eldest daughter is the same, I'll tell you if you need to know, very hard to pin down, despite mum wanting to seem close were they actually.

SL had an unusually compartmentalised life but confided lots to her sister - who she was very close to - in letters (as in NZ) best friend & PSS.

Possibly different confidants for different areas of her life. She seems to have confided to her uncle on this property business & some concern frustration she was “almost angry” someone increasingly ‘leaning on her’ did they want a deposit she didn’t yet have? Did they call & ask to meet quickly on Mon early lunchtime?

DL was traditional about relationships but had a loving relationship with SL who was outwardly the ‘girl scout’ of family. Generously organising 50th B day hotel stay & theatre trip ahead of time. I think SL wise enough not to share too much of love life with DL. Close though - yes I think so.

 

[Konstantin]

SL had an unusually compartmentalised life but confided lots to her sister - who she was very close to - in letters (as in NZ) best friend & PSS.

Possibly different confidants for different areas of her life. She seems to have confided to her uncle on this property business & some concern frustration she was “almost angry” someone increasingly ‘leaning on her’ did they want a deposit she didn’t yet have? Did they call & ask to meet quickly on Mon early lunchtime?

DL was traditional about relationships but had a loving relationship with SL who was outwardly the ‘girl scout’ of family. Generously organising 50th B day hotel stay & theatre trip ahead of time. I think SL wise enough not to share too much of love life with DL. Close though - yes I think so.

Again, this does remind me of Claudia Lawrence, who had a close relationship with her mum in that she called her a lot and ostensibly shared lots about her life but her mum was blindsided and in denial about much of the reality of her daughter's life - which is completely normal, and Claudia had every right to do whatever she wanted with her private life. Claudia was secretive and compartmentalized a lot of her life, as probably do lots of adults and every adult has secrets. I honestly don't believe at all that SL confided that much in DL, who was controlling and too involved in her daughter's private life, and if SL did tell a white lie that Sturgis were a bit funny about lunches to her mum, to get out of having to see her that day, that sounds entirely plausible. She was, after all, willing to meet PSS for lunch!

What would be the point in JC trying to scam SL - she wasn't wealthy and didn't have cash she could give, sure she had a flat she was trying to sell. A joint property deal sounds like madness to me, if it was with someone she barely knew and was JC really a scam artist of that calibre to pull it off - while he was in a prison hostel? JC did quick and brutal rapes of women he appears to have targeted on impulse. Sure, he attracted his lawyer but as I've said before, maybe she just had her own serious issues - like the FBI agent who ran away and married an ISIL member (not just any member - Cuspert was a seriously very nasty and evil specimen and this woman would have known that. https://edition.cnn.com/2017/05/01/politics/investigates-fbi-syria-greene)

With SB, I am not convinced that JC carjacked her, because then how did he get her into his flat without anyone noticing? (I guess even if she went willingly, no one noticed that either).

How would JC be able to so quickly, without a business premises and with a curfew, be able to meet SL, find out what she did for a living, her weak spots were (she was not going to be romance scammed and she had a very promising love interest on the go with wealthy expat), and go to work on developing a scam around those? All that without her mentioning anything about him to anyone in her life? Why did he need to meet her at lunchtime instead of fixing a 6PM appointment where he could then propose dinner and a movie after? Why did the lunchtime meeting lead to her abduction and murder and where did he take her (which would have been against her will in the middle of the day - unless he had access to a very nice property he could plausibly lure her to)?

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

Again, this does remind me of Claudia Lawrence, who had a close relationship with her mum in that she called her a lot and ostensibly shared lots about her life but her mum was blindsided and in denial about much of the reality of her daughter's life - which is completely normal, and Claudia had every right to do whatever she wanted with her private life. Claudia was secretive and compartmentalized a lot of her life, as probably do lots of adults and every adult has secrets. I honestly don't believe at all that SL confided that much in DL, who was controlling and too involved in her daughter's private life, and if SL did tell a white lie that Sturgis were a bit funny about lunches to her mum, to get out of having to see her that day, that sounds entirely plausible. She was, after all, willing to meet PSS for lunch!

What would be the point in JC trying to scam SL - she wasn't wealthy and didn't have cash she could give, sure she had a flat she was trying to sell. A joint property deal sounds like madness to me, if it was with someone she barely knew and was JC really a scam artist of that calibre to pull it off - while he was in a prison hostel? JC did quick and brutal rapes of women he appears to have targeted on impulse. Sure, he attracted his lawyer but as I've said before, maybe she just had her own serious issues - like the FBI agent who ran away and married an ISIL member (not just any member - Cuspert was a seriously very nasty and evil specimen and this woman would have known that. https://edition.cnn.com/2017/05/01/politics/investigates-fbi-syria-greene)

With SB, I am not convinced that JC carjacked her, because then how did he get her into his flat without anyone noticing? (I guess even if she went willingly, no one noticed that either).

How would JC be able to so quickly, without a business premises and with a curfew, be able to meet SL, find out what she did for a living, her weak spots were (she was not going to be romance scammed and she had a very promising love interest on the go with wealthy expat), and go to work on developing a scam around those? All that without her mentioning anything about him to anyone in her life? Why did he need to meet her at lunchtime instead of fixing a 6PM appointment where he could then propose dinner and a movie after? Why did the lunchtime meeting lead to her abduction and murder and where did he take her (which would have been against her will in the middle of the day - unless he had access to a very nice property he could plausibly lure her to)?

He was spending saved money & he had his father’s inheritance. He was a reasonable actor NB: dating agency video: “I have achieved all I want to in business”. He doesn’t look like an ex felon here but smart.,He had enough for the odd hotel room & the hostel curfew lax. He managed to get to Poole over the May bank hol for example. If he set himself up in pre mobile phone & internet days as a ‘travelling salesman’ it might have washed.

He did moot business plans with AR & scoped out business premises in nice & ££ parts of Bristol. A management consultancy no less. If he could fool or blind her…As you say perhaps she had her vulnerabilities but SL not poss all she seemed on surface either.

He seemed to make intelligent women take risks, GP kept seeing him too, an ice dance star.

SL was growing frustrated with whoever the mystery purchaser was. Poss not showing colour of his money or putting down an anticipated & promised deposit. Something happened on Mon poss to bring all this growing tension to a head (?) & things escalated. Maybe linked to her own lost but expected commission that morning. If he had champagne & was outside Shorrolds he was expecting to seal their deal & she backed out (?) Put your money where your mouth is!

As you say poss the wealthy expat made her see sense on JC if him (JC). Wealthy expat one of many though & due imminently back in Bahamas.

For JC it was about game play & control re: women.

SB knew JC socially - there’s some evidence in press - via the wine bar in Avon Gorge hotel. If so she may well have gone willingly first & he restrained her later. He got lucky no one saw if so. Her thumb print on docs suggest she was able to move about freely for some of time.

 

[lee sumner]

‘Lunchtime’ was unusually problematic for reasons discussed previously. Short staffed, big boss in etc.

No one was particularly focused on the keys as understandably assumed she took them. HR seeing SL & ‘Kipper’ outside Shorrolds caused all attention & focus here. HR was unreliable & he made things up or exaggerated unfortunately. The evidence is there & he backtracked. No van bundling involved etc! Possibly he heard another door bang - he later said. He caused a problem.

There’s evidence to suggest she was outside 37 or someone was/others were this said. A real focus on everyone in the vicinity showing properties etc that lunchtime would have been helpful.

I think that last call, made or received, might have led to picking someone up at Shorrolds. The unidentified person, if a developer might have been interested in what they used to call a ‘comparable’ or seeing a property from outside/neighbourhood ripe for carving up into flats etc. He might have immediately vetoed & they headed elsewhere. I do think going to pub on cards earlier than later too.

It’s plausible this person was the one indirectly flagged to Mum in last conversation.

there said there was no trace evidence that SL was inside 37/SR, but iam not surprised. we dont always leave fingerprints behind everywhere we go, and sometimes you could leave a print in a house that can evaporate within 24hrs depending on climate/air, etc.

 

[lee sumner]

Again, this does remind me of Claudia Lawrence, who had a close relationship with her mum in that she called her a lot and ostensibly shared lots about her life but her mum was blindsided and in denial about much of the reality of her daughter's life - which is completely normal, and Claudia had every right to do whatever she wanted with her private life. Claudia was secretive and compartmentalized a lot of her life, as probably do lots of adults and every adult has secrets. I honestly don't believe at all that SL confided that much in DL, who was controlling and too involved in her daughter's private life, and if SL did tell a white lie that Sturgis were a bit funny about lunches to her mum, to get out of having to see her that day, that sounds entirely plausible. She was, after all, willing to meet PSS for lunch!

What would be the point in JC trying to scam SL - she wasn't wealthy and didn't have cash she could give, sure she had a flat she was trying to sell. A joint property deal sounds like madness to me, if it was with someone she barely knew and was JC really a scam artist of that calibre to pull it off - while he was in a prison hostel? JC did quick and brutal rapes of women he appears to have targeted on impulse. Sure, he attracted his lawyer but as I've said before, maybe she just had her own serious issues - like the FBI agent who ran away and married an ISIL member (not just any member - Cuspert was a seriously very nasty and evil specimen and this woman would have known that. https://edition.cnn.com/2017/05/01/politics/investigates-fbi-syria-greene)

With SB, I am not convinced that JC carjacked her, because then how did he get her into his flat without anyone noticing? (I guess even if she went willingly, no one noticed that either).

How would JC be able to so quickly, without a business premises and with a curfew, be able to meet SL, find out what she did for a living, her weak spots were (she was not going to be romance scammed and she had a very promising love interest on the go with wealthy expat), and go to work on developing a scam around those? All that without her mentioning anything about him to anyone in her life? Why did he need to meet her at lunchtime instead of fixing a 6PM appointment where he could then propose dinner and a movie after? Why did the lunchtime meeting lead to her abduction and murder and where did he take her (which would have been against her will in the middle of the day - unless he had access to a very nice property he could plausibly lure her to)?

yes, i noticed claudia lawrence was like SL in many ways. her private life is her own.

 

[lee sumner]

Definitely. I think it’s a really under-explored aspect of the case. Was Suzy targeted or would any female have sufficed? When Suzy leaves the office that lunchtime, is she going to 37SR fully believing she’s about to show a guy called Mr Kipper the house? When has Kipper made this appointment? And how? In person, or on the phone? Has he lucked out by getting through to Suzy, if she was indeed his target? Does he request to view 37SR specifically?

The truth is these questions can’t easily be answered even after all this time.

If Mr Kipper was a guy posing as a house buyer in order to abduct/rape/murder a female estate agent then sure, it could’ve been Cannan. But nothing especially points to him. He’s just a sex offender who’d been in the area in an era when attacks on female estate agents and homeowners in the process of selling their houses were depressingly common.

No paper trail and obviously no digital one, no crime scene, and no body, all make this a devilishly tough case to crack. But for the Met to kid on like they have indeed cracked it, when they really know next to nothing, is wild.

i agree. this case will never be solved. i hate being negative as i have an obsession with SL case. its a healthy obsession, but i dont think we will ever know what happened on the 28/july/1986, but i like trying to work out what happened to SL.

 

[lee sumner]

I thought something off re: 6pm - for reasons stated on thread - for many years prior to DV. Also, that there was an urgency & tension around lost belongings - source AS & Brookner etc - it’s very plausible & understandable, IMO, she’d want & need them back earlier rather than later.

I agree with you that the answer to this mystery isn’t complex. It’s either JC or it’s someone almost hiding in plain sight potentially. DL herself said as the person buying the property with SL, involved in this ‘scheme’ never came forward, wasn’t identified & must likely be linked to her disappearance. Their contact details or a reference to them must have been somewhere.

I was reading article from 3 days after SL went missing, and it said mr kipper did leave contact details, address and phone number. it said carter and his team have checked the address. very interesting.

 

[WestLondoner]

The problem with the hypothesis that SJL was involved in a dodgy business deal is that if this were so, there had to have been a contact phone number for this person. There are only so many places it could be; so why was this person never found?

JC is a poor fit to be this person IMO because if he were posing as a legit businessman, he would need to fake up a phone number, a correspondence address, business cards and all the rest of it. He would also need to be able to sustain this over a period of months rather than days or hours. If out and about with her in public places, nobody remembers seeing them.

@LSW - JD told DV that when they reinvestigated they added JC, re-cleared all the same people but couldn't clear JC, therefore it was JC. It was as rigorous as that.

It's all very well the old bill claiming they've got a strong circumstantial case against JC, but they haven't shown she ever met him in any context, no witness ever picked him out on an ID parade, his situation doesn't support an extended process of insinuation into her life and they have never outlined what they consider the events of that day to have been.

 

[WestLondoner]

there said there was no trace evidence that SL was inside 37/SR, but iam not surprised. we dont always leave fingerprints behind everywhere we go, and sometimes you could leave a print in a house that can evaporate within 24hrs depending on climate/air, etc.

The police said there was no sign anybody had been inside that day. I don't know how they knew that - mail piled against the inside of the front door? They quietly knew the keys never left Sturgis, as they'd used the only set to get inside? - but it's quite categoric.

IMO it would be impossible to leave no prints. Kipper might avoid it, but she would not know she was supposed to, so she would be touching door handles, cupboards, light switches and banister rails.

It makes little sense to assume you can carry out a SA in a house for sale. How do you get out? How will neighbours react to a struggle?

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

there said there was no trace evidence that SL was inside 37/SR, but iam not surprised. we dont always leave fingerprints behind everywhere we go, and sometimes you could leave a print in a house that can evaporate within 24hrs depending on climate/air, etc.

there said there was no trace evidence that SL was inside 37/SR, but iam not surprised. we dont always leave fingerprints behind everywhere we go, and sometimes you could leave a print in a house that can evaporate within 24hrs depending on climate/

The problem with the hypothesis that SJL was involved in a dodgy business deal is that if this were so, there had to have been a contact phone number for this person. There are only so many places it could be; so why was this person never found?

JC is a poor fit to be this person IMO because if he were posing as a legit businessman, he would need to fake up a phone number, a correspondence address, business cards and all the rest of it. He would also need to be able to sustain this over a period of months rather than days or hours. If out and about with her in public places, nobody remembers seeing them.

@LSW - JD told DV that when they reinvestigated they added JC, re-cleared all the same people but couldn't clear JC, therefore it was JC. It was as rigorous as that.

Well, quite on JC. I do wonder who other suspects were. A few listed on a Fox/Wilson programne as I recall but how seriously considered I don’t know.

I moot upthread about how might have pulled off a deal/scheme as a business exec but if so he couldn’t be credible or sustain for very long. I agree. He did just, just possibly, have enough to sustain a bedsit with ansaphone or hotel room for a month perhaps & was no stranger to getting cheap business cards made & forgery! He did similar later on & presumably he’d have not been able to sustain his Foye House flat indefinitely paid for by a 6k type inheritance from distant relative. He was usually overdrawn & didn’t live within means. Burning through money he had. Supplementing with odd raid etc later on.

There was also a robbery at Superhire whilst JC there - around May 86. Will post article. More ££ if JC. The only reported robbery in press at Superhire, ever.

Let’s hope not a Perks, Jessop, Peterson sitting in her contact book! Aka JC perhaps…

JC had poss about 2.5k plus in the bank approx. Father’s inheritance etc. Enough perhaps for a 2 month business facade? He had begun to heavily spend from May 86 apparently.

This ‘deal’ was a scheme for SL to get on in world, she was ambitious & she was dealing with someone who’d perhaps over promised & under delivered. Whoever was behind it was thought to be the perp. It may not have been JC.