UK UK - Suzy Lamplugh, 25, Fulham, 28 Jul 1986 #8

[Lady Stoddart-West]

@rvlvr a few thoughts on JC guilt or otherwise.

1. Where was he between Fri night & late the following week which he was first officially alibied? Barley says he showed someone a Bristol train ticket? The facts are no one could account solidly for his whereabouts including him.

2. The canal dumping witness. The man who saw the man who looked like JC was very convinced & tried to report to police who didn’t log, apparently, at time. He travelled to get a glimpse of JC at SB trial he was that dedicated & became even more convinced.

3. Is it JC’s MO to hold someone captive for a day or more? Yes re: SB. The call SB was presumably forced to make to work stopped immediate alarm. She called in sick. Had SL made him realise this was necessary? Did he alter his MO because of SL? He can’t have expected such a speedy police response re: SL & sought to avoid re: SB (?)

4. The mystery joint deal. Was JC the person encouraging her to buy a property she couldn’t otherwise afford? He poss had inheritance from father to look & act part long enough to hook her. Her parents thought whoever was behind deal was her killer. If she confided in her uncle she may have confided in others (?) Poss she planned to discuss with PSS over lunch. Presumably she needed to get her flat under offer asap. NB: x3 failed attempts.

JC had form for scoping out business ideas, property etc. NB: management consultancy AR.

Possible next steps for police & investigation:

1. Look again at DNA on hair found in sierra re: SC & SL. Techniques have improved. Rule a match in or out conclusively for both if poss.

2. If envelope exists for SC confession letter rule JC in or out for this re: stamp/flap. There’s fairly good evidence he killed SC & wrote this letter. Prove this, if possible & give closure at least to SC & family.

3. Contacts book for SL & diaries - look again at all numbers/names & search up in newspapers - small ads etc - with particular emphasis on the mystery ‘joint purchaser’. Is there a hotel number/numbers amongst them? Could that fit re: JC’s unaccounted for few days.

4. JC novels written in prison - get someone with a very detailed knowledge of case from earliest days to have a look at these. Has he left a clue?

5. Chequebook - as per diaries & contacts. Presumably all carefully checked in 1986 & hopefully rechecked re: Phoebus again in 2000 (!?) Who was she paying & why. All accounted for?

6. Postcard - IF from DH or diary entries proclaiming particular enduring love about DH, (AS/police said she loved him above all others - how did they know & did they pick this up from this postcard & contact book?) could this be why JC used his particular surname to pin murder of SL, someone else ‘and another girl’, on? Assuming JC had sight of these items.

7. SW - a current focus/interest as wife says it’s poss his feet on ground in UK/area. Were his contact details in her book etc?

Am sure others could be added.

JC’s banking & ‘hole in the wall’ cash withdrawal records

The police were able to put JC in Reading in 87, at right day/time, due to JC’s cash withdrawals on day. Re: DT.

They were able to get a log of JC’s movements by logging cash withdrawals re: SB in Bristol.

Presumably they tried & failed in July 86 re: SL? Was tech not there then.

@WestLondoner you said, I think you said Phoebus was about adding JC to list of suspects. Other suspects were eliminated (?) Do we know who any of the earlier others were? Any in public domain.

 

[EddietheEagle]

It's good to see the thread back on a more reasoned, logical path again.

Apropos the keys. If the appointment at Shorrolds Road was genuine, then obviously SL left with the keys. Had the appointment been a ruse, she would also have taken the keys. By all accounts, SL was artful. She wasn't, however, stupid.

Tales of keys not being taken and dismissing the statement of a highly experienced SIO regarding the keys, a detective with several successful murder inquiries to his name, is simply fanciful.

The keys disappeared along with SL, possibly kept hidden by JC as a trophy after he killed her, or dumped. Other keys were later found in his possession that have never been accounted for.

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

It's good to see the thread back on a more reasoned, logical path again.

Apropos the keys. If the appointment at Shorrolds Road was genuine, then obviously SL left with the keys. Had the appointment been a ruse, she would also have taken the keys. By all accounts, SL was artful. She wasn't, however, stupid.

Tales of keys not being taken and dismissing the statement of a highly experienced SIO regarding the keys, a detective with several successful murder inquiries to his name, is simply fanciful.

The keys disappeared along with SL, possibly kept hidden by JC as a trophy after he killed her, or dumped. Other keys were later found in his possession that have never been accounted for.

I agree & think there are other areas much more worthy of our attention & focus. On balance I think I’m with you.

That said, what DV said about mechanisms & logging for keys & rather strange/inefficient practice of putting spare sets of keys on same ring as master - spot on, IME. It’s counter intuitive of course but was the reality.

The vendor had provided only one set of keys & it was a new instruction - not much time for admin wheels to turn & demand necessitating new sets to be cut.

There was a set of keys for 37 apparently still in office. If she didn’t take keys it points to a last minute plan or necessary ruse & being in somewhat of a fluster. That might fit with the half sitting, half standing call.

 

[Rookie D]

I know relatively little about this particular case compared to some the members on this thread, and I am grateful for your combined knowledge, as it feels very much like this thread is on the right track.

Could the reason why SL didn't take the keys, be because she wasn't looking to meet a client to sell, but rather, she was looking to meet another estate agent and was looking to buy?

Could SL have been the client herself?

If "Mr Kipper" was a faux estate agent, could he have been using a ruse to sell a property to her overseas?

SL then goes to meet him to discuss terms, but because she doesn't want to go through her own firm, she has to be discreet to some extent.

I apologise in advance if my approach seems rather discordant from the general flow of the thread, but sometimes I find that asking questions from someone who knows relatively little about the finer details of the case, can sometimes help to look at things from a different perspective.

 

[rvlvr]

I agree & think there are other areas much more worthy of our attention & focus. On balance I think I’m with you.

That said, what DV said about mechanisms & logging for keys & rather strange/inefficient practice of putting spare sets of keys on same ring as master - spot on, IME. It’s counter intuitive of course but was the reality.

The vendor had provided only one set of keys & it was a new instruction - not much time for admin wheels to turn & demand necessitating new sets to be cut.

There was a set of keys for 37 apparently still in office. If she didn’t take keys it points to a last minute plan or necessary ruse & being in somewhat of a fluster. That might fit with the half sitting, half standing call.

Agreed. DV’s interview with DS Ryan, who in 2019 was in charge of Suzy’s case (I believe he’s now retired), was fairly revealing, I thought. Obviously we only have DV’s telling of the story to go on, so have to treat it with some caution, but when the issue of the keys came up during their discussion he appeared to concede that DV and ‘Caroline’ were on to something (chapter 55):

‘And Suzy didn’t have the key for the house showing either, did she?’ Caroline pushed on as she smiled at him, recognisably happy with her progress so far.

‘Well, we assumed she did have the keys.’ Ryan let out a sigh before continuing. ‘Because her manager went round to 37 Shorrolds Road and knocked on the door on the day to see if she was there.’

Ryan was referring to Mark Gurdon, who had originally said in his witness statement that he had gone to 37 Shorrolds Road looking for Suzy when he’d discovered the entry in her diary after she’d gone missing. Gurdon’s assumption had been, at the time, that the key was missing, and that Suzy must have had it with her.

But our investigation had revealed something entirely different.

‘So how did the police’s own scenes of crime officer get inside 37 Shorrolds Road to forensicate the property the next day with the key, if Suzy had disappeared, taking that key with her?’ Caroline asked.

‘We, er, don’t know where those keys came from,’ Ryan admitted awkwardly.

‘They came from the estate agent’s,’ Caroline stated. We knew there was only one key. Mark Gurdon had told us so.

‘So,’ Ryan started, sounding a little defeated, ‘you’ve got that bit too. We don’t know where the keys came from,’ he conceded. ‘So yeah, the… so we don’t know where the… so…’ Ryan stumbled over the end of his sentence, seemingly unsure how to finish it.

If we assume Ryan did his homework prior to the meeting with DV then “we don’t know where the keys came from” is quite a line, in my view.

 

[Konstantin]

I mean, the keys might have come from the owner who left a spare set with a neighbour. I don't think this is necessarily that significant but it's an interesting thing to consider. Certainly the focus on believing SL went to Shorrolds when there were signs she may have not gone there at all does seem to have closed off or reduced other avenues of investigation.

The last minute call she had might have been a change of plan, but she didn't seem to take keys to any other property.

If this was a random Russian roulette fake client who called estate agents and hoped to lure a female estate agent into an empty property - then that doesn't quite seem to fit with the admittedly few facts that exist. But it could be what happened. SL thought he was a bona fide client and was just unlucky.

Lunchtime seems a very risky time of day to pull a stunt like that but JC did far riskier and stupider things. But it just doesn't seem to make sense. He couldn't lure her into a house and attack her without her seeing his face and being able to identify him.

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

Agreed. DV’s interview with DS Ryan, who in 2019 was in charge of Suzy’s case (I believe he’s now retired), was fairly revealing, I thought. Obviously we only have DV’s telling of the story to go on, so have to treat it with some caution, but when the issue of the keys came up during their discussion he appeared to concede that DV and ‘Caroline’ were on to something (chapter 55):



If we assume Ryan did his homework prior to the meeting with DV then “we don’t know where the keys came from” is quite a line, in my view.

Yes, very good points re: on police (Ryan) seemingly tacitly agreeing on 37’s keys to DV.

It was the way keys were dealt with at time. Inefficient as it sounds. Which backs this up. Even now some London agencies have all spares on one ring for viewings as some may know if they’ve had to sift a dozen keys to open a door!

DV said the police accepted most of his new discoveries. Arguably some poss not as new and revelatory as seemed. The police, Ryan, etc,could not agree however, on KH, ‘cellar’ etc. I come back to point if DV seriously expected a KH arrest & had full dossier he presumably had much more that wasn’t in book? He’ll have known what threshold was. Not suggesting KH involvement here personally.

IF it was an invented viewing - & police did seriously consider this at time we do know -& she didn’t take keys to reinforce - it suggests a speedy response perhaps to an unfolding situation, that last call…

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

I mean, the keys might have come from the owner who left a spare set with a neighbour. I don't think this is necessarily that significant but it's an interesting thing to consider. Certainly the focus on believing SL went to Shorrolds when there were signs she may have not gone there at all does seem to have closed off or reduced other avenues of investigation.

The last minute call she had might have been a change of plan, but she didn't seem to take keys to any other property.

If this was a random Russian roulette fake client who called estate agents and hoped to lure a female estate agent into an empty property - then that doesn't quite seem to fit with the admittedly few facts that exist. But it could be what happened. SL thought he was a bona fide client and was just unlucky.

Lunchtime seems a very risky time of day to pull a stunt like that but JC did far riskier and stupider things.

They needed to bottom out the property buying partner which steers away from spur of moment JC (although I have an open mind on JC - if him I think odds good he was this mystery purchaser known to her) abduction or other spontaneous perp to my mind. It was thought he was ‘Kipper’ & he’s never been identified. Her last words to parents were on him & the evolving situation she wasn’t free to talk about & she’d spoken about the pressure she felt to her uncle.

To add JC as MO did insist on absolute secrecy. GP meeting him in Dorset hotel used his real name and/or disclosed what she was doing to family & he got very angry indeed!

The owner said only one set & the E agents had. Although as expat poss a key to neighbours sensible but none consulted AFAIK. As you say poss neither here nor there as someone seemed to be outside at about the right time but all expected a regular viewing there. All witnesses days later.

 

[RichardKimble]

Good points but I think the odds are very good too, ‘Kipper’ was the man putting her under pressure (as relayed to uncle) the last conversation with parents ‘don’t ask me about it, I’ll tell you about it when I can’. The property she couldn’t otherwise afford, the joint purchaser ‘client’. He was never found & didn’t come forward.

It seems almost impossible that he didn’t have any contact details. He needed to be identified & elimimated.

Our eldest daughter is the same, I'll tell you if you need to know, very hard to pin down, despite mum wanting to seem close were they actually.

 

[RichardKimble]

I know relatively little about this particular case compared to some the members on this thread, and I am grateful for your combined knowledge, as it feels very much like this thread is on the right track.

Could the reason why SL didn't take the keys, be because she wasn't looking to meet a client to sell, but rather, she was looking to meet another estate agent and was looking to buy?

Could SL have been the client herself?

If "Mr Kipper" was a faux estate agent, could he have been using a ruse to sell a property to her overseas?

SL then goes to meet him to discuss terms, but because she doesn't want to go through her own firm, she has to be discreet to some extent.

I apologise in advance if my approach seems rather discordant from the general flow of the thread, but sometimes I find that asking questions from someone who knows relatively little about the finer details of the case, can sometimes help to look at things from a different perspective.

Welcome, personally any new idea is welcome, I think we're all of the same mind that possibly Cannan did for SJL but with out concrete evidence other possible suspects must be taken in to account, all opinion.

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

Our eldest daughter is the same, I'll tell you if you need to know, very hard to pin down, despite mum wanting to seem close were they actually.

SL had an unusually compartmentalised life but confided lots to her sister - who she was very close to - in letters (as in NZ) best friend & PSS.

Possibly different confidants for different areas of her life. She seems to have confided to her uncle on this property business & some concern frustration she was “almost angry” someone increasingly ‘leaning on her’ did they want a deposit she didn’t yet have? Did they call & ask to meet quickly on Mon early lunchtime?

DL was traditional about relationships but had a loving relationship with SL who was outwardly the ‘girl scout’ of family. Generously organising 50th B day hotel stay & theatre trip ahead of time. I think SL wise enough not to share too much of love life with DL. Close though - yes I think so.