UK UK - Suzy Lamplugh, 25, Fulham, 28 Jul 1986 #8

[Lady Stoddart-West]

@WestLondoner the police were angry at not knowing about this deal at time NB: article upthread. I think there’s good evidence it was real. SL told her parents she couldn’t discuss the specifics but was very excited & would tell all when able. Her uncle’s comments on it also very compelling. I hope the reinvestigation refocused here & on her contacts.

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

@WestLondoner the police were angry at not knowing about this deal at time NB: article upthread. I think there’s good evidence it was real. SL told her parents she couldn’t discuss the specifics but was very excited & would tell all when able. Her uncle’s comments on it compelling.

On below @rvlvr made a very insightful post NB: Ryan’s comments on keys.

The police said there was no sign anybody had been inside that day. I don't know how they knew that - mail piled against the inside of the front door? They quietly knew the keys never left Sturgis, as they'd used the only set to get inside? - but it's quite categoric.

IMO it would be impossible to leave no prints. Kipper might avoid it, but she would not know she was supposed to, so she would be touching door handles, cupboards, light switches and banister rails.

It makes little sense to assume you can carry out a SA in a house for sale. How do you get out? How will neighbours react to

 

[lee sumner]

The police said there was no sign anybody had been inside that day. I don't know how they knew that - mail piled against the inside of the front door? They quietly knew the keys never left Sturgis, as they'd used the only set to get inside? - but it's quite categoric.

IMO it would be impossible to leave no prints. Kipper might avoid it, but she would not know she was supposed to, so she would be touching door handles, cupboards, light switches and banister rails.

It makes little sense to assume you can carry out a SA in a house for sale. How do you get out? How will neighbours react to a struggle?

there is no way DCI carter would think SL took the keys to 37/SR if she did not. there is no way a street smart detective like carter would miss something like that. its only DV who says she never took the keys, and people here are buying into it. iam going to believe the late DCI carter as he was SIO on the case, not DV the conspiracy man.

 

[kes1972]

@Klclevi he had some money from father’s will/death (died 1985) there was some evidence he’d been saving & splurged in a short window before SL went missing apparently. Need to find source. Prime Suspect. CBD. I think.

His father had apparently set aside a generous amount to help him ‘go straight’ & get life together on release. If he spent all in a short window it might have been enough to give a brief impression of an affluent life to impress, reassure or at least not alarm SL.

AS tells us SL was in an unusually good mood early on (via SF) & later DV tells us she lost a hoped for or expected commission to NH & there was an argument. Could this have influenced a later decision? That final call ‘half sitting half standing’ at desk (AS) springs to mind. There were also x3 failed attempts to sell flat & lack of funds had prevented her travelling to NZ to see her sister although that obviously ££. She’d looked into being a courier to facilitate legitimate cheap travel to NZ (AS).

JC had discussed setting up a management consultancy & similar with AR & was looking at poss offices (Prime Suspect: CBD). So may have done similar here with SL.

A bit of a distraction but david fuller is a name i would like to throw in the ring, murderer of at least two women in 1987, in 1986 was following the cutting crew whose record label tower records was located nearby to fulham road, his mo was to follow his victims prior to his crimes, had links to tunbridge wells as did sl with that telephone code on her diary and her bf working there, could also have had access to luxury properties as his link with the group and people may have allowed that, we also know he was a keen cyclist as per photo of him and (bike courier) mentioned in her office diary could possibly provide a link.

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

there is no way DCI carter would think SL took the keys to 37/SR if she did not. there is no way a street smart detective like carter would miss something like that. its only DV who says she never took the keys, and people here are buying into it. iam going to believe the late DCI carter as he was SIO on the case, not DV the conspiracy man.

Carter & team were smart enough to question whether SL had invented the viewing back in 1986. It was one line of enquiry.

 

[kes1972]

The data on a 6pm pick up came from pub & poss temp publican’s wife. Poss lost in translation & she was never late for apts even by 5 mins, so seems odd she’d have volunteered 6pm as pick up . It stands to reason she’d want her diary/contacts asap IMO or she’d have not been so dedicated/persistent about it to temp landlord. His recount to DV showed her particular worry about the diary.

Agree, the pub staff would not be able to provide a clear time if they were guilty as they would not have known her days routine so would have given a readonable time early evening but not too late not knowing of her 6pm app

 

[lee sumner]

Carter & team were smart enough to question whether SL had invented the viewing back in 1986. It was one line of enquiry.

they did wonder this, which is why carter and team went back and looked at every viewing she attended since she started work at sturgis, and carter said every viewing was real. SL was not known for faking appointments.

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

A bit of a distraction but david fuller is a name i would like to throw in the ring, murderer of at least two women in 1987, in 1986 was following the cutting crew whose record label tower records was located nearby to fulham road, his mo was to follow his victims prior to his crimes, had links to tunbridge wells as did sl with that telephone code on her diary and her bf working there, could also have had access to luxury properties as his link with the group and people may have allowed that, we also know he was a keen cyclist as per photo of him and (bike courier) mentioned in her office diary could possibly provide a link.

Thanks for this. Just coming back on telephone code - where’s the source/info on a Tunbridge Wells code? About 4-6 of ‘Putney set’ group of friends had parents living around Ockley, Surrey.

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

they did wonder this, which is why carter and team went back and looked at every viewing she attended since she started work at sturgis, and carter said every viewing was real. SL was not known for faking appointments.

Yes, but they never entirely took the poss off the table. I am open minded on it. DV & the Ryan account is quite compelling. The police do effectively admit there were only one set of keys & they stayed in the office. IF we believe it’s an honest recount from DV ofc.

Not everything DV uncovered can be rubbished although I don’t defend everything he said. The police themselves agreed with much of it, including, if we take his word for it, views on keys.

 

[tes1984]

A bit of a distraction but david fuller is a name i would like to throw in the ring, murderer of at least two women in 1987, in 1986 was following the cutting crew whose record label tower records was located nearby to fulham road, his mo was to follow his victims prior to his crimes, had links to tunbridge wells as did sl with that telephone code on her diary and her bf working there, could also have had access to luxury properties as his link with the group and people may have allowed that, we also know he was a keen cyclist as per photo of him and (bike courier) mentioned in her office diary could possibly provide a link.

IIRC Fuller kept a detailed diary of what he did. Obviously he could have faked diary entries on certain days.

A lot of offenders have links to Fulham. The Railway Killer David Mulcahy used to go roller blading in Bishop's Park. His parents lived nearby in Barnes. Mulcahy was a bike courier in the 80s, but I'm not sure where he worked or if he doing that job in summer 1986.

 

[kes1972]

AS was deeply hurt by what happened leading up to the publication and afterwards.

I agree re reinvestigation, this is completely warranted given the current media regarding SW , but I would say that most of us here would say the SW angle is off the table

If you research AS articles (post the articles from the book excerpts) , he comes across as almost a broken man over the book.

I reference an article from 1991 - nearly 3 years from when the book was published in Oct 88.

The Independent Monday 8.4.1991

as i understand there is absolutely no evedence proving jc and sl ever met but there is evidence the pow had her personal items, and had contact with her that day.They say she was due to visit the pub to collect her items at some point, police had an uneasy feeling, her car parked at the furthest point from the pub on stevenage road on the opposite side of the thames leaving a convenient quiet walk back all quite handy.

 

[kes1972]

Thanks for this. Just coming back on telephone code - where’s the source/info on a Tunbridge Wells code? About 4-6 of ‘Putney set’ group of friends had parents living around Ockley, Surrey.

It is on here on one of the threads, sorry i am not sure which one if i find it i will supply asap

 

[EddietheEagle]

Carter & team were smart enough to question whether SL had invented the viewing back in 1986. It was one line of enquiry.

SIO Nick Carter went on prime time television, Crimewatch, to state the keys went with SL on a distinctive Sturgis fob which had not been found. He even held the distinctive yellow fob up to camera.

You appear to be suggesting the SIO may have been a misguided fool.

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

SIO Nick Carter went on prime time television, Crimewatch, to state the keys went with SL on a distinctive Sturgis fob which had not been found. He even held the distinctive yellow fob up to camera.

You appear to be suggesting the SIO may have been a misguided fool.

Not at all. NB: upthread @rvlvr . She’d put the viewing in her diary, they’d been a witness etc. They had little or no early reason to doubt. Carter’s actions were intelligent & sensible based on what was in front of him.

The early team deserve much respect they were really up against it & they cared deeply which is very important to note. Later it seems it definitely transpired there was a set of keys for 37 Shorrolds Rd in the office & no one disputes/disputed (?) Poss a logical explanation & viewing indeed took place.

I have an open mind as to why these keys seemingly there & IMO healthy & respectful questions are fine.

 

[kes1972]

IIRC Fuller kept a detailed diary of what he did. Obviously he could have faked diary entries on certain days.

A lot of offenders have links to Fulham. The Railway Killer David Mulcahy used to go roller blading in Bishop's Park. His parents lived nearby in Barnes. Mulcahy was a bike courier in the 80s, but I'm not sure where he worked or if he doing that job in summer 1986.

I think fuller had diarys accounted for from 1987 onwards

 

[WestLondoner]

there is no way DCI carter would think SL took the keys to 37/SR if she did not. there is no way a street smart detective like carter would miss something like that.

Well, maybe, maybe not. DCI Nick Carter also failed to check with local prisons for recently-paroled or day-released sex offenders, organised a press conference where he asserted that SJL had been seen at 37SR before taking any witness statements, didn't reconsider this claim when the first reconstruction brought in no confirmatory sightings, never circulated the information that SJL had never been inside 37SR, dismissed the BW sighting, and didn't trace any LHD BMWs.

His previous most high-profile case was the disappearance of Martin Allen, a 15-year-old London schoolboy who was never found.

It doesn't strike me as far-fetched at all that he could have overlooked where the police got their keys from. The assumption here by those who doubt this is that there must have been a spare set. This is a bit of a double-edged point, because if we can assume that now, how do we know the 1986 inquiry didn't also assume the keys they used to get in were a spare set? DV also indicates that every Sturgis employee he spoke to said all keys would be on the same fob.

It's not the only debatable assumption made by the inquiry; it's not a patently silly idea that an EA would have more than one set; and Fulham plods were completely slammed with 40 arrests in connection with the cement factory fraud that very day. MG comes very close to admitting he knew what happened there.

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

Well, maybe, maybe not. DCI Nick Carter also failed to check with local prisons for recently-paroled or day-released sex offenders, organised a press conference where he asserted that SJL had been seen at 37SR before taking any witness statements, didn't reconsider this claim when the first reconstruction brought in no confirmatory sightings, never circulated the information that SJL had never been inside 37SR, dismissed the BW sighting, and didn't trace any LHD BMWs.

His previous most high-profile case was the disappearance of Martin Allen, a 15-year-old London schoolboy who was never found.

It doesn't strike me as far-fetched at all that he could have overlooked where the police got their keys from. The assumption here by those who doubt this is that there must have been a spare set. This is a bit of a double-edged point, because if we can assume that now, how do we know the 1986 inquiry didn't also assume the keys they used to get in were a spare set? DV also indicates that every Sturgis employee he spoke to said all keys would be on the same fob.

It's not the only debatable assumption made by the inquiry; it's not a patently silly idea that an EA would have more than one set; and Fulham plods were completely slammed with 40 arrests in connection with the cement factory fraud that very day. MG comes very close to admitting he knew what happened there.

Good points. On the apparent LHD BMW, if you mean jogger sighting, that info didn’t come through until 2000. The pop up police station in Stevenage Rd apparently didn’t pass on this info in 1986 or it got lost.

 

[Klclevi]

Hi all

There are a number of articles around the witness who came forward 14 years later. References to articles attached.

I would assume this is Park man jogger BMW sighting man but why doesn't it say so.

Also , the reference to more than one person responsible also must disappear from 2000 to 2002 somewhere (I am just not up to that yet).

There is also an article from JCs mother ( (dated 7.12.99) It does not say alot other than probably this poor lady was at anguish knowing her son has done such terrible things to women.

If anything if you read everything that has been posted in the media since 1986 (that is publicly available and in chronological order, its pretty fascinating to be honest- some articles have different details others are just a copy of whats already been published, so where do they get their additional info from?).
Who knows how much of it is actually true.

Thankyou to everyone here for your support and comments. - I have only been on this thread just over a year, but learnt so much from all fellow posters and thanks again. Its greatly appreciated.

 

[EddietheEagle]

Where are the real facts and hard evidence which support the thesis these keys were apparently never taken? Nothing of the preceding convinces. I think it's all pie in the sky.

Apropos lost investigative opportunity, it would appear the photofit wasn't matched to newly-released Cannan. He could have been picked up early. To me, the likeness of the Riglin photofit is uncanny. HR had a decent look from behind the window of his front room where he probably watched unobserved.

Mike Barley must have thought he'd all but nailed it with his interview of Cannan. What with Cannan's momentary confession, his boastful claim that he knew who killed SL, plus that trophy-style, coded number plate. That latter was a giveaway: SLP; 1986 when it started; Shirley Banks the 3rd of 3 victims; all 'S's - Shirley, Suzy, Sandra. Take your pick, it's all there.

"I have a dislike of inflated egos. People who are, you know "Look at me, I'm great" type. I don't like that - I can't handle that sort of inner weakness". That's Cannan describing himself. Only an inflated ego would produce a number plate like that. I read somewhere that Cannan was apparently fuming when he found out his dating video had come to light.

I wonder if police established where Cannan obtained the false plates from and the explanation he gave with his instructions.

I can imagine the immense frustration the police must have felt. So near yet so far.

 

[rvlvr]

Yes, but they never entirely took the poss off the table. I am open minded on it. DV & the Ryan account is quite compelling. The police do effectively admit there were only one set of keys & they stayed in the office. IF we believe it’s an honest recount from DV ofc.

Not everything DV uncovered can be rubbished although I don’t defend everything he said. The police themselves agreed with much of it, including, if we take his word for it, views on keys.

Indeed. Ryan obviously went in to that meeting with DV prepped to rebut DV’s theory, yet on the key(s) appeared stumped. He and his team must have looked through statements by officers, Sturgis staff, basically anyone who attended 37SR, for evidence of how entry to the house was obtained? Yet if it exists it apparently wasn’t shown to DV.

I’ve posted before about oddities in AS’s book regarding entry to 37SR vs Suzy’s flat (post 1,391):

AS makes a point of telling us that DI Johnstone ordered his team to go to Suzy’s home “immediately”, before Johnstone is supposed to have said: “Whatever you do, get in there.” We’re told in quite a bit of detail about what happened at Suzy’s home, such as police breaking open the door, and the various tasks they performed while searching inside. Yet 37SR - supposedly the centrepiece of this story - receives very little of the author’s attention. We’re informed that “detectives were immediately sent to ‘enter and search’” the property, and that’s pretty much that.

How was 37SR entered and searched? Did MG enter and search it prior to the police? Did MG find the keys to 37SR between his first and second visits, or on the Monday evening?

Imo, DV’s hunch that MG or someone at Sturgis found the keys at some point is plausible, and not contradicted by any of the evidence presented in AS’s book. *If* the keys were found, then whoever found them probably thought that this was odd. But my guess is that HR’s ‘sighting’ of ‘Suzy’ with a man outside of 37SR would’ve ‘confirmed’ to them that Suzy must’ve gone there and met ‘Mr Kipper’. MG was a busy man, trying to run the office and keep his own appointments, as were the rest of his staff. Events were moving fast and police weren’t simply treating this as a ‘misper’, CID were quickly involved, while the Lamplugh family were holding court with the national papers. Any misunderstanding regarding the whereabouts of the keys likely seemed unimportant in those first few weeks when all that surely mattered was finding Suzy.

Suzy’s flat wasn’t a crime scene, 37SR possibly was, yet little attention is given to the latter. Strikes me as odd but could be just an innocent oversight on AS’s part.

Determining if Suzy had the keys in her possession when she left the office would go a long way to telling us what her intentions and movements were that day.