• #721
He could have met and befriended vv who knows, it eould not surprise me.

That is the critical question, to which we'll never know the answer. The police never found that car.

A LHD BMW would be cheaper than a RHD BMW generally speaking.
Yes, good point on price. I found a local company selling these in 86.

The Crimewatch prog - later one - or a doc - shows the jogger witness saying “it never occurred to me it was a LHD BMW”. So this possibility fed to him & it made sense as he couldn’t understand why the ‘driver’ was screaming or laughing/moving etc.

I need to check article again but he remarked again on the woman being much blonder than he thought SL was.
 
  • #722
on the sunday SL called at her parents. i thought DL said SL was tired after her weekend. DL says i hope your not over doing things, to which SL says, no mum, life is for living. they did not mention anything about property deal.
This is what was put out there by DL - a sanitised version. This is why the police were ‘furious’ they’d not been given all the correct information at time.

She discussed with them ‘at length’ & had told her uncle (in doc) he says that someone was ‘leaning on her’ ‘ may be linked. The family knew all about the deal & contract & it formed part of last conversation they had with her. They knew it was problematic, poss slightly illegal & there were ‘strings’.

I think it’s possible her sensible father cast some doubt for SL & she therefore backed out & things escalated. She’d told her uncle breezily ‘don’t worry I can handle it’. Sadly perhaps she couldn’t.

NB: the two articles I’ve posted upthread.

I think DL thought this could all be solved without any or too much scrutiny into more difficult aspects of SL’s private & professional life. Their changing some facts to make them a bit more palatable is sadly one reason IMO & from evidence that it remained unsolved.
 
  • #723
That is the critical question, to which we'll never know the answer. The police never found that car.

A LHD BMW would be cheaper than a RHD BMW generally speaking.
Ah, but they did find Cannan's BMW car when they searched his flat in Bristol, along with Shirley Banks resprayed mini tha was concealed in the garage.

So if that car wasn't a left hand drive, then it has to be a different BMW vehicle allegedly seen by the jogger who left the park.

Not finding the BMW in Stevenage road isn't the relevant point, it's whether or not the BMW owned by Cannan was a left or right hand drive.
 
  • #724
They allowed her time off to get her hair done and she was going for lunch that Monday with PSS until the latter cancelled. So this does not follow. It could simply be what she told her mother to avoid having lunch with her.

Agree with this.

Too much is made of timings (lunch at 1, collecting belongings at 6, etc), when this isn’t how office environments work, especially not an estate agency. I don’t think for a second MG would’ve allowed Suzy to simply go shopping during business hours, but popping into John Menzies or getting your tennis racquet restrung or even doing a bit of window shopping after an appointment? There’s nothing or no one to stop you. An appointment might take you out of the office for ten minutes, or you might be gone for an hour and half. You’ll have cancellations and no shows. So plenty of scope for doing other things. I think we’d all prefer to get an errand or meeting that we’d have to do in our own time - during one of the busiest periods of the day traffic wise and with your own schedule looking quite tight - out of the way on company time, if we could get away with it. It’s really not at all a fanciful part of any theory relating to this case, imo.
 
  • #725
I think Cannan may have chosen Foye House, Leigh Woods, in Bristol, because it was a just a stone's throw from the location where another murder victim from 1984; Shelley Morgan, was alleged to have gone to and from where she was abducted and murdered; her remains later being found in Backwell.

Cannan was in prison at the time of Shelley's murder, but it may be that Cannan deliberately wanted to get a flat close the site where another killer had previously operated.

That's just my opinion of course.
 
  • #726
Ah, but they did find Cannan's BMW car when they searched his flat in Bristol, along with Shirley Banks resprayed mini tha was concealed in the garage.

So if that car wasn't a left hand drive, then it has to be a different BMW vehicle allegedly seen by the jogger who left the park.

Not finding the BMW in Stevenage road isn't the relevant point, it's whether or not the BMW owned by Cannan was a left or right hand drive.
JC’s only known BMW - RHD - was bought circa June 1987 from Roger Head motors in Gloucester. Around time he rented Foye House in Bristol. Other than that no proven link to a BMW. He had use of a red Sierra in mid 1986 that he shared with hostel cook.
 
  • #727
Agree with this.

Too much is made of timings (lunch at 1, collecting belongings at 6, etc), when this isn’t how office environments work, especially not an estate agency. I don’t think for a second MG would’ve allowed Suzy to simply go shopping during business hours, but popping into John Menzies or getting your tennis racquet restrung or even doing a bit of window shopping after an appointment? There’s nothing or no one to stop you. An appointment might take you out of the office for ten minutes, or you might be gone for an hour and half. You’ll have cancellations and no shows. So plenty of scope for doing other things. I think we’d all prefer to get an errand or meeting that we’d have to do in our own time - during one of the busiest periods of the day traffic wise and with your own schedule looking quite tight - out of the way on company time, if we could get away with it. It’s really not at all a fanciful part of any theory relating to this case, imo.
This makes perfect sense. Some E Agency bosses could enjoy a bit of power & point at watches if 5 mins late on lunch & poss AS saying so here re: his comment Sturgis could be a bit tricky on timing. As you say though no one could really truly police your time.

The only caveat to this is the significance or otherwise of day in question - were all more wary due to big boss a stone’s throw from office? You’d likely be a bit more ‘by the book’ - a fee earner needing to be present & they were short staffed etc.

In which case leaving your bag poss an artful way of making it look like you expected only to be out briefly but in reality you were going to push it a bit. Some insurance.
 
  • #728
Ah, but they did find Cannan's BMW car when they searched his flat in Bristol, along with Shirley Banks resprayed mini tha was concealed in the garage.

So if that car wasn't a left hand drive, then it has to be a different BMW vehicle allegedly seen by the jogger who left the park.

Not finding the BMW in Stevenage road isn't the relevant point, it's whether or not the BMW owned by Cannan was a left or right hand drive.
Cannan was still using that car when he was nicked, so the connection was easily made.

The thing is, as LSW has noted, there's no evidence he was using a BMW at all in July 1986. JD has asserted that he is "personally confident that Cannan had access to a BMW" at that time. Whatever weight you attach to that, it's only relevant if you assume Cannan was the driver of the BMW that the jogger saw. If so, then you need to make the evidence fit the hypothesis by showing he had a BMW. And suddenly JD is convinced he had a BMW.

My concern is that had someone looking like SJL screaming / laughing been seen in the Noddy car, JC would have been fitted up with having owned one of those instead. His supposed 1986 BMW was registered to someone somewhere - why was it never identified if it existed?
 
  • #729
I have a few random questions that I feel would be interesting to find an answer to...

1) Suzy drove the white Fiesta to work, but she didn't use the vehicle again until after she left the office circa 12.30pm. When the vehicle was found in Stevenage road, it was said that the driver's seat was set further back; as though someone taller had driven it last. But was there any of Suzy's male colleagues who used the same car between the time she arrived at work, to the time she left circa 12.30pm? i.e. were there any other drivers of the Fiesta on that day apart from Suzy?

2) What happened to the large sheeting that was in the back of the Fiesta just behind the driver's seat and in front of Suzy's hat? In various different images/footage of the car in situ, there is at least one where a large piece of paper sheeting can be seen through the back window. It looks like a large map that has been unravelled. Where did that go and was it retained for evidence?
(It kind of reminds me a little of the interior of Penny Bell's Jaguar car; who was murdered in Greenford in 1991; a well dressed man in a suit being the prime suspect for her brutal murder)

3) If Suzy had lost her personal belongings that included her cheque book, then why didn't she take the 2 minute walk from her flat in Disraeli road to the pub on the other side of the trainline, to pick them up before work?
It strongly implies that Suzy didn't know where her belongings were until AFTER she got to the office on the morning of the 28th July.

4) Between 2pm and 3.30pm, there were apparently no witnesses to confirm that the Fiesta was still in Stevenage Road. Could the car have been RE-PARKED by the killer in virtually the same spot as it was seen earlier?
I say this because it was stated that the back of the car was encroaching slightly on the entrance to the garage, but the actual video footage that shows the vehicle in situ, clearly shows that the Fiesta is further forward and does NOT encroach the driveway at all.

5) When the witness came forward and said that a car similar to Suzy's, who driver was driving erratically and had almost drove into him in Kelvedon Road (as he drove north), and he looked in his mirror to see the car signal to turn right into the Fulham Road, then how did the car (if it was Suzy) manage to therefore drive directly towards the Sturgis office further up Fulham Road, without anyone seeing Suzy or the car? If the witness was correct, then Suzy was heading back towards the Sturgis office.

6) If Suzy's car was found with just the driver's door unlocked, but the passenger door locked, then how did both Suzy and the man with her both get out of the car?
Suzy's friend Barbara was adamant she saw Suzy driving circa 2.45pm up Fulham Palace Road, but there being a man in the passenger seat. This means that at some point they both needed to have got out of the car, but this conflicts with the logistics of how the car was found in Stevenage Road.
Why is that?
(unless there were 2 Fiesta company cars?)

7) There were alleged reports that there had been a man going around various estate agents, and calling himself Mr Kipper. But if this was John Cannan, then when did he find the time to do this? He was released on the Friday 25th, and the 27th was a Sunday. That means that the only day that Cannan could have gone around multiple estate agents, would have been on the Saturday only. Is that plausible?

8) If Suzy parked the car in Stevenage Road before going to 37SR to meet Mr Kipper, then how did she manage to do so in such a short time frame on foot? If she drove to Stevenage road first, then she must have got a lift to 37SR in order to be seen standing outside number 37 just a few minutes later. In other words, why not drive straight to 37SR from the office?

9) How did Mr Kipper know to go to 37SR? Sturgis never publicised the number of the house they advertised in the press, and if you check all the newspaper adds, they are deliberately ambiguous. The only place that they advertised the actual house number, was on the frontage of the Sturgis office. That means that unless Suzy verbally told Mr Kipper to meet outside 37SR, then Mr Kipper had to have been present at the office itself in order to see the actual advertisement for the correct flat. In other words, Mr Kipper didn't get the house number from a newspaper, so how did he know about 37SR?

10) Why is there so much mystery and contradiction surrounding the alleged 6pm timing for Suzy to go and collect her lost personal belongings at the pub, when she had arguably her most important deal with a 6pm appointment with Joanna Wright at 43 Waldermar avenue?

11) Did Mr Kipper ask Suzy to go and look at further properties, including 123 Stevenage road, which was also for sale through Sturgis?

12) Is it significant that Suzy's company car was parked outside 123 Stevenage Road, and her last appointment in Waldermar Avenue, was located between Stevenage Road and the Sturgis office?

13) Why did it appear that Suzy's boss was hiding something when he gave an interview on camera during the Crimewatch reconstruction? This is evidenced by his body language, micro expressions and licking of the lips at the end of him talking. He portrays a degree of nervousness, with a pinch of self gratification.

14) Who is the tanned man seen on one of the Lamplugh's family photos, who closely resembles the description of Mr Kipper? He is seen wearing a blue shirt with a woman who is presumably Suzy. They're seemingly sitting in a pub. Who is this man?

15) Who placed Suzy's hat back on the rear of the car window? She was seen wearing it by Marianna in Stevenage Road, but why is there no sign of this hat, or the car, when Suzy is apparently seen outside 37SR?

16) Was the canal in Brentford searched thoroughly by the police after a witness claimed to have seen a man; who he was later convinced was Cannan, walking with a heavy suitcase along the canal path?

17) Where did Suzy go to use the bathroom between leaving the office, and being allegedly seen by various witnesses over the next few hours?

18) Did Suzy ever enter 37SR, or was the witness mistaken?

19) Did the bearded man who hailed a cab and who told the cab driver he had heard a man and woman arguing, ever come forward? If not, then why not?

20) How did the killer leave with Suzy? If the alleged sighting of the BMW is wrong, then how did Suzy leave the area? It couldn't have been via her own car.

21) Did the killer have a bolt hole somewhere and subdue Suzy in a property local to the area, and the idea that Suzy was driven away, is completely wrong?

22) Does the BMW sighting provide us with the answer as to exactly how Suzy was abducted?
 
  • #730
What do you mean by mark gurdon comes close to? Thanks
if carter says SL took the keys she took the keys. only a moron would believe she did not take them.
 
  • #731
I have a few random questions that I feel would be interesting to find an answer to...

1) Suzy drove the white Fiesta to work, but she didn't use the vehicle again until after she left the office circa 12.30pm. When the vehicle was found in Stevenage road, it was said that the driver's seat was set further back; as though someone taller had driven it last. But was there any of Suzy's male colleagues who used the same car between the time she arrived at work, to the time she left circa 12.30pm? i.e. were there any other drivers of the Fiesta on that day apart from Suzy?

2) What happened to the large sheeting that was in the back of the Fiesta just behind the driver's seat and in front of Suzy's hat? In various different images/footage of the car in situ, there is at least one where a large piece of paper sheeting can be seen through the back window. It looks like a large map that has been unravelled. Where did that go and was it retained for evidence?
(It kind of reminds me a little of the interior of Penny Bell's Jaguar car; who was murdered in Greenford in 1991; a well dressed man in a suit being the prime suspect for her brutal murder)

3) If Suzy had lost her personal belongings that included her cheque book, then why didn't she take the 2 minute walk from her flat in Disraeli road to the pub on the other side of the trainline, to pick them up before work?
It strongly implies that Suzy didn't know where her belongings were until AFTER she got to the office on the morning of the 28th July.

4) Between 2pm and 3.30pm, there were apparently no witnesses to confirm that the Fiesta was still in Stevenage Road. Could the car have been RE-PARKED by the killer in virtually the same spot as it was seen earlier?
I say this because it was stated that the back of the car was encroaching slightly on the entrance to the garage, but the actual video footage that shows the vehicle in situ, clearly shows that the Fiesta is further forward and does NOT encroach the driveway at all.

5) When the witness came forward and said that a car similar to Suzy's, who driver was driving erratically and had almost drove into him in Kelvedon Road (as he drove north), and he looked in his mirror to see the car signal to turn right into the Fulham Road, then how did the car (if it was Suzy) manage to therefore drive directly towards the Sturgis office further up Fulham Road, without anyone seeing Suzy or the car? If the witness was correct, then Suzy was heading back towards the Sturgis office.

6) If Suzy's car was found with just the driver's door unlocked, but the passenger door locked, then how did both Suzy and the man with her both get out of the car?
Suzy's friend Barbara was adamant she saw Suzy driving circa 2.45pm up Fulham Palace Road, but there being a man in the passenger seat. This means that at some point they both needed to have got out of the car, but this conflicts with the logistics of how the car was found in Stevenage Road.
Why is that?
(unless there were 2 Fiesta company cars?)

7) There were alleged reports that there had been a man going around various estate agents, and calling himself Mr Kipper. But if this was John Cannan, then when did he find the time to do this? He was released on the Friday 25th, and the 27th was a Sunday. That means that the only day that Cannan could have gone around multiple estate agents, would have been on the Saturday only. Is that plausible?

8) If Suzy parked the car in Stevenage Road before going to 37SR to meet Mr Kipper, then how did she manage to do so in such a short time frame on foot? If she drove to Stevenage road first, then she must have got a lift to 37SR in order to be seen standing outside number 37 just a few minutes later. In other words, why not drive straight to 37SR from the office?

9) How did Mr Kipper know to go to 37SR? Sturgis never publicised the number of the house they advertised in the press, and if you check all the newspaper adds, they are deliberately ambiguous. The only place that they advertised the actual house number, was on the frontage of the Sturgis office. That means that unless Suzy verbally told Mr Kipper to meet outside 37SR, then Mr Kipper had to have been present at the office itself in order to see the actual advertisement for the correct flat. In other words, Mr Kipper didn't get the house number from a newspaper, so how did he know about 37SR?

10) Why is there so much mystery and contradiction surrounding the alleged 6pm timing for Suzy to go and collect her lost personal belongings at the pub, when she had arguably her most important deal with a 6pm appointment with Joanna Wright at 43 Waldermar avenue?

11) Did Mr Kipper ask Suzy to go and look at further properties, including 123 Stevenage road, which was also for sale through Sturgis?

12) Is it significant that Suzy's company car was parked outside 123 Stevenage Road, and her last appointment in Waldermar Avenue, was located between Stevenage Road and the Sturgis office?

13) Why did it appear that Suzy's boss was hiding something when he gave an interview on camera during the Crimewatch reconstruction? This is evidenced by his body language, micro expressions and licking of the lips at the end of him talking. He portrays a degree of nervousness, with a pinch of self gratification.

14) Who is the tanned man seen on one of the Lamplugh's family photos, who closely resembles the description of Mr Kipper? He is seen wearing a blue shirt with a woman who is presumably Suzy. They're seemingly sitting in a pub. Who is this man?

15) Who placed Suzy's hat back on the rear of the car window? She was seen wearing it by Marianna in Stevenage Road, but why is there no sign of this hat, or the car, when Suzy is apparently seen outside 37SR?

16) Was the canal in Brentford searched thoroughly by the police after a witness claimed to have seen a man; who he was later convinced was Cannan, walking with a heavy suitcase along the canal path?

17) Where did Suzy go to use the bathroom between leaving the office, and being allegedly seen by various witnesses over the next few hours?

18) Did Suzy ever enter 37SR, or was the witness mistaken?

19) Did the bearded man who hailed a cab and who told the cab driver he had heard a man and woman arguing, ever come forward? If not, then why not?

20) How did the killer leave with Suzy? If the alleged sighting of the BMW is wrong, then how did Suzy leave the area? It couldn't have been via her own car.

21) Did the killer have a bolt hole somewhere and subdue Suzy in a property local to the area, and the idea that Suzy was driven away, is completely wrong?

22) Does the BMW sighting provide us with the answer as to exactly how Suzy was abducted?
great questions. i would love to know the answer to all these.
 
  • #732
Another excellent post. I wrote about the NDs back in the summer, I don’t find their sightings particularly compelling tbh. And HR describing Kiper as ‘boyishly’ handsome (!) on top of his apparent embellishments about what he saw should make us question his entire testimony, imo.

the whole point of a reconstruction is to jog people memory.
 
  • #733
She had an appointment at 6pm so no way she would arrange to pick up at 6pm the diary does not lie so the pow does or someone has made a mistake with the pick up time
after 6pm on the way home.
 
  • #734
This is what was put out there by DL - a sanitised version. This is why the police were ‘furious’ they’d not been given all the correct information at time.

She discussed with them ‘at length’ & had told her uncle (in doc) he says that someone was ‘leaning on her’ ‘ may be linked. The family knew all about the deal & contract & it formed part of last conversation they had with her. They knew it was problematic, poss slightly illegal & there were ‘strings’.

I think it’s possible her sensible father cast some doubt for SL & she therefore backed out & things escalated. She’d told her uncle breezily ‘don’t worry I can handle it’. Sadly perhaps she couldn’t.

NB: the two articles I’ve posted upthread.

I think DL thought this could all be solved without any or too much scrutiny into more difficult aspects of SL’s private & professional life. Their changing some facts to make them a bit more palatable is sadly one reason IMO & from evidence that it remained unsolved.
DL has mentioned SL making the, life is for living comment many times.
 

Guardians Monthly Goal

Staff online

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
253
Guests online
3,999
Total visitors
4,252

Forum statistics

Threads
643,099
Messages
18,793,748
Members
245,060
Latest member
Jrv20256
Back
Top