UK UK - Suzy Lamplugh, 25, Fulham, 28 Jul 1986 #8

[WestLondoner]

So are we saying this second sighting by C's father was around 2-2:45pm?

We don't know, but if it was then it tends to substantiate the BW sighting - similar area and perhaps also similar time.

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

We don't know, but if it was then it tends to substantiate the BW sighting - similar area and perhaps also similar time.

So close to post or pre visit to basement we have evidence of some escalation perhaps? The argument in Stevenage etc...and abduction around then perhaps?

 

[RichardKimble]

One observation on the suited man, no one ever described him as wearing gloves, he must have been fingerprint savvy to have worn them in the car or meticulously wiped it down does this point to JC?

 

[kes1972]

One observation on the suited man, no one ever described him as wearing gloves, he must have been fingerprint savvy to have worn them in the car or meticulously wiped it down does this point to JC?

A question, if this suited man was in sl fiesta, then he was the passenger who later locked passenger door, would this be so it is assumed sl drove the fiesta alone? If so then would that indicate that person knew sl well and any fingerprints in the car would be expected to be found and treated as normal. If so that leaves 3 people to my reckoning. We know jc would not be clever enough to remove fingerprints from the car and if he was wouldnt forensics know certain parts of the car had been “wiped clean” of prints?

 

[Konstantin]

The BMW struggling couple, witness forward in 2000, (but said earlier in 1986 too) said he was confused at first as the woman he saw was blonde. Then we have AS P.76 “ND & ND - two men, same initials - each added a point that gave their evidence greater plausibility. The girl they had seen, they told the police had lighter hair than the pictures of SL showed”.

Could it be, in reality, her hair looked as attached? IME men not great at noticing subtlety in blonde hair colouring - Marilyn Monroe a ‘blonde’ Lol

If we’re being pedantic about it no sun to enhance either, not a sunny day!

Is her photo where she's sitting on the bloke's lap taken after she had her hair done?

It wasn't a sunny day and it was quite cold for the time of year. Some drizzle. You might say she's blonde or fair haired in the photo on the AS book cover but not very blonde. Very blonde is the ABBA woman - SL didn't have it bleached did she? If highlights then maybe that looked lighter.

But human memory is very poor.

 

[lee sumner]

A couple of O[rdinary] Levels was fairly respectable for that era. From 1944 to 1972 the school leaving age was 15. It's raising to 16 in 1972 was not universally popular, especially amongst some of the traditional working class. Since exams were taken at 16 it meant that before 1972 many working class teenagers left school with no qualifications at all. Once they were required to stay in school until 16 and could take leaving exams, they were split into two streams - the more able took O Levels and the less able or academic took CSEs (Certificates of Secondary Education) or some commercial / vocational qualifications such as Pitman shorthand and typing.

iam working class. did not take any exams because i played truant all the time. education is important, i just did not realise this at the time. i was very immature.

 

[lee sumner]

But perps do start off being ruthlessly methodical and more reckless as they get more confident with time as per jc

it should be the other way round.

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

Is her photo where she's sitting on the bloke's lap taken after she had her hair done?

It wasn't a sunny day and it was quite cold for the time of year. Some drizzle. You might say she's blonde or fair haired in the photo on the AS book cover but not very blonde. Very blonde is the ABBA woman - SL didn't have it bleached did she? If highlights then maybe that looked lighter.

But human memory is very poor.

Yes - x1 day.

Highlights prob through a cap..a gold tinge in places. Poss only tint not bleach which doesn’t lift very light on a dark base.

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

Is her photo where she's sitting on the bloke's lap taken after she had her hair done?

It wasn't a sunny day and it was quite cold for the time of year. Some drizzle. You might say she's blonde or fair haired in the photo on the AS book cover but not very blonde. Very blonde is the ABBA woman - SL didn't have it bleached did she? If highlights then maybe that looked lighter.

But human memory is very poor.

Yes - x1 day.

Highlights prob through a cap..a gold tinge in places but not dramatic change. Poss only tint not bleach which doesn’t lift very light on a dark base. Her sister is a natural blonde I think & you can see difference even in black & white.

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

Now this is much earlier than party IF more representative maybe re: blonde.

 

[kes1972]

One observation on the suited man, no one ever described him as wearing gloves, he must have been fingerprint savvy to have worn them in the car or meticulously wiped it down does this point to JC?

Or have use of the car

 

[kes1972]

it should be the other way round.

Yes it should but jc ? Robert napper?

 

[lee sumner]

Hi All, I am new here so please accept my apologies if I am posting in the wrong place. I am hoping to add some personal knowledge after receiving an email from a Jill Doyle who runs a book blog. I had previously posted on a book review about SL, whereby I had briefly told of my father's own experience at the time of her disappearance. Please excuse what may be a long-winded explanation but I feel I must as my father (Ernest McConville) went to his grave (2nd July 1998) haunted by the fact that the police had disregarded a report he made at the time. He actually went to Fulham police station in person as he had no house phone at that time. Below is as much and as accurate as I am able to remember.

My father's address was 10A Dorncilffe Road, Fulham, SW6 5LF. It was the top flat in a maisonette, with 10B the middle flat and 10C the basement flat. Access to the basement flat (at ground level) was round to the left of the building in a little side alley way which also lead to the gardens. We had moved to Dorncliffe Road in 1979 when I was 13. By age 19 I was living in Battersea with my then partner. I remember visiting my father and him going on about this missing woman and that he had witnessed her and a man pull up outside his house and that the man, with dark hair and suited, had got out and gone to the basement flat. The woman who was blonde had remained in the car. I cannot remember how long he said it was before the man returned to the car and the car drove off, I also don't recall whether he mentioned who was driving but even down to the straw hat on the back shelf, he was sure that this was the woman who was now missing. He reported what he saw, descriptions etc to the police station but never heard anything back from them. I'm pretty sure I remember him saying that he went back to the police station to reiterate what he had seen as he expected the police to make contact with him to follow up. He was 100 percent positive about the information he had given them. My brother later told me that when SL car was found it appeared on the news and my father had jumped out of his chair and shouted "THAT'S THE CAR!" He probably swore too being Irish and angry at the same time. I guess at the time I was young and wrapped up in my own life and struggles so didn't really dwell on news and such (I really wish I had been older, wiser and more pushy back then). I know my father had done what any good person would do and tried to help and assumed that the police would investigate. Little did he know that the police had completely disregarded his witness statement because, as far as they were concerned, SL had dark or brown hair (not realising that she had recently had it highlighted). Over the years, until his death, he would mention the SL case and become quite angry about it and the fact they didn't seem to act on his information. In hindsight and knowing my father, he would definitely have been able to identify who it was or wasn't. When I found out that they had reopened the investigation due to the mistakes made in the original one, I contacted the number given to let them know about my father's report and was visited by a plain clothes officer (not sure off hand what rank). He had with him a copy of my father's statement and he let me and my brother look at it (this is going back about 20+ years now). He did say that he believed my father had seen SL. How might that change the route taken to Stevenage Road? I never thought to mention or ask that question at the time.

Circling back to the basement flat (10C Dorncliffe Road)... at the time, there was a man living there who dealt hard drugs (heroin etc). I don't remember his name but my brother may know as he spent more time at our father's than I did. This man was quite dodgy and we were made aware by my father that we should steer clear. There was always people coming and going and drama around the basement flat. My brother was also able to tell the policeman that this 'neighbour' had spent time in Wormwood Scubbs. Maybe there's a crossover with JC? Who knows. Also, maybe it's possible that JC asked SL to stop off at 10 Dorncliffe for whatever reason and picked up something with which to subdue SL (that's me speculating). Around the same time, I wrote to SL parents telling them what I'm telling you all. My brother drove to their home to post it and actually met the mum and had a conversation with her. It just didn't seem right to keep quiet. We were early 20s now approaching and in our early 60s. I don't have the energy, resources or know how to dig around but hopefully others can. I'm also no longer as adept on computers or social media as I once was so, again, apologies in advance for my big long ramble. My father had no hidden agenda and neither do I. We are quite private people in general. Only looking for truth and closure so SL can truly be at peace.

Claire McConville

i think your father seen a couple who were scoring drugs, heroin. this would explain why his info was not given top priority by detective carter and his team. if people were in and out of there all the time, it was probably drug addicts scoring off the dealer that lived there.

 

[GTB72]

And so light so poor cricket was stopped...

To be fair the BMW driver did come forward at the time to the pop up police station in Stevenage Road - apparently. This detail was 'lost' as JD says so many details and reports were at the time. Where did the jogger get the idea was the BMW was perhaps LHD from by the way? To paraphrase "it didn't occur to me the BMW as LHD".

So are we saying this second sighting by C's father was around 2-2:45pm?

BBM. Shortly after the car pulled away I would imagine. He has came out of Bishop's Park and has seen the woman laughing/screaming in the car in the drivers position facing the "passenger" Then the car has pulled away and the lady is still in the same position if his memory of the event and the 2000 reconstruction is accurate.

 

[lee sumner]

The situation screams clive barwell type of scenario, i play the women in the car situation with them laughing or screaming and think how did he control that situation , any proof of where barwell was at that time?

stocktake perhaps. learning how to pull a pint.

 

[GTB72]

Looking at this video of CW from 1986 and 2000, SJL is brunette with faint highlights in the 12-week reconstruction but super-blonde in the brief clip from the 2-week reconstruction.

The HR sighting and the first ND sighting are identified as having been at the same time, but it's remarkable that nobody ever questioned why the two Kipper descriptions were so different.

In the 2000 recap, a van driver had come forward 14 years later remembering he swerved to avoid a white Fiesta in Kelvedon Road. This is a good example of a rubbish later "sighting". It's not clear if in the reconstruction of this shown, his own D-reg vehicle is supposed to be accurately depicted. If he remembered being in this vehicle when this happened, then he's mistaken as to the day - D-plates came in from August 1986 so he can't have been driving one the day SJL disappeared. Despite the car being driven erratically, it then indicated right into Fulham Road. Really? And it would then have had to drive right past Sturgis. Again, really?

The jogger, who does not sound like the sharpest tool in the shed, claims "it was a very hot day". It was not; at Heathrow ten miles west it was 21 degrees cooling to 19 degrees between 1pm and 1.20.

Did the Police not dismiss the left-hand drive BMW info in 1986 due to issues with the timeline? If so, what changed for the Police to reconsider in 2000?

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

BBM. Shortly after the car pulled away I would imagine. He has came out of Bishop's Park and has seen the woman laughing/screaming in the car in the drivers position facing the "passenger" Then the car has pulled away and the lady is still in the same position if his memory of the event and the 2000 reconstruction is accurate.

Of course! Thank you.

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

BBM. Shortly after the car pulled away I would imagine. He has came out of Bishop's Park and has seen the woman laughing/screaming in the car in the drivers position facing the "passenger" Then the car has pulled away and the lady is still in the same position if his memory of the event and the 2000 reconstruction is accurate.

Of course! Thank you.

Did the Police not dismiss the left-hand drive BMW info in 1986 due to issues with the timeline? If so, what changed for the Police to reconsider in 2000?

They never fully concluded the older model car (BMW) search seen in Shorrolds as far as I know.

 

[kes1972]

i think your father seen a couple who were scoring drugs, heroin. this would explain why his info was not given top priority by detective carter and his team. if people were in and out of there all the time, it was probably drug addicts scoring off the dealer that lived there.

Very odd, especially as he saw the hat on the parcel shelf, a man in a suit and woman not to treat this information as important?

 

[lee sumner]

If SL was seen in Shorrolds Road circa 12.50pm, and then again at 1pm, but her car that she had driven to work was found in Stevenage Road, and was seen parked there at 12.45pm by the woman who lived at 123 Stevenage Road, (a property under the books of SL's manager at Sturgis; MG) then how did she get to Shorrolds Road?

WJ may of course have been mistaken by her 12.45pm sighting, but because we also had a Taxi cab driver who also saw the car just before 2pm, then we have multiple witnesses to the car in Stevenage Road, and sandwiched in between we have the multiple sightings of SL in Shorrolds Road.

So, how is that possible?

Well, unless SL drove to Stevenage Road first, and then got a lift to Shorrolds Road in another vehicle, then it is impossible for SL to have been in 2 places at the same time.

So we either have someone else from Sturgis driving the car to Stevenage Road BEFORE SL leave the office, and then SL has to go directly to Shorrolds Road in a different car, or by walking there; ergo, she never went to Stevenage Road beforehand, or she drove to Stevenage Road and then got a lift to Shorrolds Road afterwards.

But why do that?

Well considering that the viewing of 37SR only took around 10 minutes, then that seems an awfully short viewing for any serious buyer.

And so by parking the car in Stevenage Road first, was the viewing at Shorrolds Road simply a means to disguise the idea that Mr Kipper and SL were looking at other properties nearer to Stevenage Road?

Critically, the front door was heard closing by the witness living next door to 37SR, which would imply that both SL and Mr Kipper had at least been inside the property for a short period of time; perhaps even just a few minutes.

It's interesting to note that SL wasn't heard going IN to 37SR by the neighbour, which suggest that he was only in proximity to his bay window just moments before SL and Mr Kipper had left the property.

But why did Mr Kipper not attack SL in 37SR?

Instead, he opts to wait

Why?

From 12.30pm that day, SL is alleged to have been seen driving in her car with Mr Kipper on 2 separate occasions (once whilst having an argument with her male passenger) she's also heard and seen arguing in Stevenage Road, seen walking along Stevenage Road with Mr Kipper, and seen standing in a garden by the same witness, she's also seen outside 37SR by 3 witnesses, 2 of which with Mr Kipper, and she's also seen screaming or laughing in a BMW that then speeds off.

So what is going on here?

If we consider that ALL the sightings were correct and genuine, then we have to work out the chronology of events in order to build an accurate picture of what really happened.

So, putting motive aside, the primary focus should be on logistics and chronology of events.

Unless we can out work out HOW and WHEN things happened on the day, then the WHY counts for very little indeed.

the WHY is not as important as, WHEN and HOW.