UK UK - Suzy Lamplugh, 25, Fulham, 28 Jul 1986 #8

[Rookie D]

The issue with discounting WJ's earlier 12.45pm sighting of the white car parked opposite her house, is that there was another witness who also saw the car just before 2pm.

So we then have 2 different witnesses both getting their sighting of the car wrong.

Is that plausible?

 

[Rookie D]

When her body was found her clothes and jewellery were found nearby as was a large rock to which her hair had stuck, IIRC. It looks like she was beaten to death at the scene.

It does seem evident that SB was alive when she got out of the car.

Make no mistake; JC's M.O. consisted of him making his victim fell they still had hope.

JC was all about the process of the kill, rather than just the act.

He always intended to kill SB, and he took joy from giving her some hope she would survive her ordeal.

Many serial killers play the same game.

That is perhaps one of the aspects that supports the idea that JC murdered SL; he got a thrill from the process that led from the initial meeting, then subsequent abduction,, and then on to the kill time itself.

The phone call to the pub is another aspect that JC was the killer; i.e. he made SL call the pub.

Of course, the thing that in some ways nullifies his involvement, is that he was only released on the Friday beforehand.

It all depends on how long the diary entry had been in that diary. If SL wrote that entry BEFORE the Friday 25th, then it would seem wholly unlikely that JC was the killer.

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

Harry Riglin heard the front door go when they left. The evidence is indicative of them going inside.

He heard a bang & said later possibly a car door not the door at 37.

All this seems quite possible.

For a number of reasons, nothing can have been intended to happen at 37SR. Anyone intending to attack her there would have had no knowledge of the interior of the property, where the exits were, where they led, how soundproof it was, how likely the owner was to return, or any of that. The agency would know exactly where she had gone, either because she'd routinely told someone or because one set of keys was missing. So a search party would turn up pretty quickly - which indeed it did. If you're raping your victim as two blokes from her office walk in the front door how do you escape to your car - where does the back door lead to? Which, incidentally, was what got Cannan caught after the haberdashery shop rape in 1981 - the husband arrived at the locked front door and Cannan had to ask the victim where the back door went.

So if this was a planned abduction, the first thing you'd do is get her well away from where she was expected to be and would be looked for.

In doing so the abductor then had five immense strokes of luck:

1 - HR was an unreliable witness but believed,
2 - so was WJ,
3 - EM and BW, credible witnesses who undermined others, were disbelieved,
4 - the ditching of her car opposite a Sturgis sign was unjustifiably assumed to be significant,
5 - the family distributed misleading and out-of-date photos of a brunette to the press, because she looked prettier in those.

Hence here we are.

An excellent summary.

I wonder if it’s possible she was followed onwards from a rendezvous at 37? The two men looking straight ahead in the van (EH) in AS. An elderly lady who noted this as unusual.

The calls to pub at 2pm some kind of warning (?)

Too many people involved seems unlikely but a van abduction at speed might point to fiesta dumping in Stevenage.

What’s the motive though? She threatened to blow the whistle on the deal when she realised what ‘strings’ were?

JC was beginning to plan & plot to destroy AR’s life & her family. He’d hired someone as a first step to information gather & photograph her. This also in back of mindS

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

It does seem evident that SB was alive when she got out of the car.

Make no mistake; JC's M.O. consisted of him making his victim fell they still had hope.

JC was all about the process of the kill, rather than just the act.

He always intended to kill SB, and he took joy from giving her some hope she would survive her ordeal.

Many serial killers play the same game.

That is perhaps one of the aspects that supports the idea that JC murdered SL; he got a thrill from the process that led from the initial meeting, then subsequent abduction,, and then on to the kill time itself.

The phone call to the pub is another aspect that JC was the killer; i.e. he made SL call the pub.

Of course, the thing that in some ways nullifies his involvement, is that he was only released on the Friday beforehand.

It all depends on how long the diary entry had been in that diary. If SL wrote that entry BEFORE the Friday 25th, then it would seem wholly unlikely that JC was the killer.

There’s evidence much later - NB: PSS originally in for Mon lunchtime.

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

It does seem evident that SB was alive when she got out of the car.

Make no mistake; JC's M.O. consisted of him making his victim fell they still had hope.

JC was all about the process of the kill, rather than just the act.

He always intended to kill SB, and he took joy from giving her some hope she would survive her ordeal.

Many serial killers play the same game.

That is perhaps one of the aspects that supports the idea that JC murdered SL; he got a thrill from the process that led from the initial meeting, then subsequent abduction,, and then on to the kill time itself.

The phone call to the pub is another aspect that JC was the killer; i.e. he made SL call the pub.

Of course, the thing that in some ways nullifies his involvement, is that he was only released on the Friday beforehand.

It all depends on how long the diary entry had been in that diary. If SL wrote that entry BEFORE the Friday 25th, then it would seem wholly unlikely that JC was the killer.

Also the call to taxi firm. Chilling MO.

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

The issue with discounting WJ's earlier 12.45pm sighting of the white car parked opposite her house, is that there was another witness who also saw the car just before 2pm.

So we then have 2 different witnesses both getting their sighting of the car wrong.

Is that plausible?

There was it seems, some kind of escalation in locale of Stevenage Rd/Finlay St - where cab hailed between about 2-3pm. If timings a bit out may fit. There was also poss an argument on street etc.

 

[GTB72]

He heard a bang & said later possibly a car door not the door at 37.

IMO HR enjoyed his 5 mins of fame, he dramatised the sighting, saying he saw SL being bundled into a van is actually almost perverting course of justice.

He then got a free trip & attention re: Belgium, saying Kiper actually looked like the man he saw. Nothing like the photofit then.

He only got a brief glimpse via a net curtain & only saw a man.

Further up thread Rookie D posted a photofit of the Thames Towpath attacker which looked remarkably like the HR description of Mr Kipper.

Is it possible that HR has seen that photofit b4 and that it is the TTA he is describing to the Police sketch artist?

The Nicholas Doyle photofit looks more like JC.

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

Further up thread Rookie D posted a photofit of the Thames Towpath attacker which looked remarkably like the HR description of Mr Kipper.

Is it possible that HR has seen that photofit b4 and that it is the TTA he is describing to the Police sketch artist?

The Nicholas Doyle photofit looks more like JC.

Possibly, it’s astonishing how these photofits look generically like so many. Take VV.

You’re right in that ND’s photofit should be given more credence.

HR only got the briefest glimpse & it seems was exaggeration prone.

 

[Kasparthecat1]

the flat was on the market for 6 months, so it does appear she was struggling to find a buyer, but a buyer was found in oct 86 and the flat was sold for 74 grand, so she would have sold it eventually.

Do we know how much the flat was on the market for?

 

[Rookie D]

Possibly, it’s astonishing how these photofits look generically like so many. Take VV.

You’re right in that ND’s photofit should be given more credence.

HR only got the briefest glimpse & it seems was exaggeration prone.

I would also question exactly what HR saw.

I say this because in the reconstruction, HR is sitting in his armchair and as he hears the door slamming shut, he turns to see who is outside.

However, from his position sitting in his armchair, his field of vision would have made it impossible for him to have seen anyone standing outside 37SR, because the frame of the bay window would have obscured his visual trajectory. He would have been able to see someone towards the street from the doorway, but if both Mr Kipper and SL walked too far, HR would have needed to have made a concerted effort to turn around in his chair and/or get up from the chair to turn and look through the net curtain.

If you look at the reconstruction closely and watch the section when HR turns to look outside from his seated position in his chair, you will see that he couldn't have seen much at all. And when we consider that there was already an efit of a serial rapist in the press, it could indeed be a case of HR being subconsciously influenced by that same efit.

It seems clear to me that HR's viewpoint should be given more credence, as his field of vision was not obscured.

Note that he also pointed out that Mr Kipper appeared to have a broken nose.

This is particularly interesting piece of evidence that I believe is largely overlooked.

However, despite all of that, what if HR was actually correct?

I say that because what's interesting about the serial rapist who terrorised Richmond (and Barnes) was that one of his victims he drove all the way out to Epping Forest!

By doing that, it's clear that the Richmond rapist wasn't solely about raping women where he came into contact with them,, but that he was actually prepared to ABDUCT them as well!

It appears that according to the press, the police quickly tried to negate a link between the man who abducted SL and the Richmond Thames Towpath rapist, although there appears to be no obvious reason for why they did so?

Now of course, IF the police were wrong to rule out a link, and the Richmond rapist had already driven a woman to Epping Forest to rape her...then could he have also abducted and taken SL to Epping Forest?

Could SL be buried somewhere in Epping Forest?

And could Mr Kipper have been the notorious Richmond Rapist?

 

[Kasparthecat1]

Further up thread Rookie D posted a photofit of the Thames Towpath attacker which looked remarkably like the HR description of Mr Kipper.

Is it possible that HR has seen that photofit b4 and that it is the TTA he is describing to the Police sketch artist?

The Nicholas Doyle photofit looks more like JC

Another theory here...

Since JC was on day release, working as a porter, in the period before he was freed, I'm assuming he made acquaintances with people/colleagues on the outside and during his day. Apparently the prison was quite lax with the day release rules and times too. Is it possible that he found a short term room or flat somewhere nearby. Probably easy enough with word of mouth etc.

Now my mind is flashing back to Dorncliffe Road. Is it possible that, whatever reason was given to SL to stop off there, maybe he was hoping the basement neighbour (G) would help him out, like let him have use of his flat for a romantic night or 2 and there was no answer when he knocked so he had to resort to a backup plan?

All of this is theory of course. Wracking my brain here because who in their right mind is going to attempt to grab someone in a busy city and hope to get away without witnesses, without some kind of plan at least? Now I can see why people are trying to think of a nearby empty propery he (whoever he was) could have used.

This is along my lines of thinking too. If this is JC, I reckon he'd have enough contacts to ensure there was somewhere he could go - perhaps for general womanising or something more nefarious. A garage, a shed, a flat or bedsit...plenty of scope. JTs place perhaps? Add in storage facilities courtesy of his job with the props company and a lax regime at the Scrubs and Bob's your Uncle.

 

[Kasparthecat1]

Possibly, it’s astonishing how these photofits look generically like so many. Take VV.

You’re right in that ND’s photofit should be given more credence.

HR only got the briefest glimpse & it seems was exaggeration prone.

Wasn't there another witness sighting too? Someone called Jesus something? A Spaniard I think? Iirc his sighting backed up the other 3.

Having initially thought the two representations were completely unlike each other, I've done an about-turn and now think they are indeed of the same man. They are pretty generic though - interesting too that people were ringing into Crimewatch suggesting MG! So could be any well-dressed, white, clean shaven man really. But resembling JC.

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

This is along my lines of thinking too. If this is JC, I reckon he'd have enough contacts to ensure there was somewhere he could go - perhaps for general womanising or something more nefarious. A garage, a shed, a flat or bedsit...plenty of scope. JTs place perhaps? Add in storage facilities courtesy of his job with the props company and a lax regime at the Scrubs and Bob's your Uncle.

He had money too re: JC, & was middle class - unlike average crim in hostel. The money factor means the bar at Dorchester etc feasible plus odd hotel stay which was his MO. Alias & cash & he even brought own flowers re: Bristol hotel.

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

Wasn't there another witness sighting too? Someone called Jesus something? A Spaniard I think? Iirc his sighting backed up the other 3.

Having initially thought the two representations were completely unlike each other, I've done an about-turn and now think they are indeed of the same man. They are pretty generic though - interesting too that people were ringing into Crimewatch suggesting MG! So could be any well-dressed, white, clean shaven man really. But resembling JC.

The broken nose or once broken nose an interesting detail. The descriptions from JI very compelling & ND. Looking accustomed to being in a good suit & either ex public schoolboy or east end gangster. Doyle a jeweller, he’ll have been good at sizing up potential customers.

Although the doorway & neon type sign mean those seen almost certainly outside 37, esp because of HR, there is a small chance these people/man may have been outside another house close by for sale (there were a few) or elsewhere but close by to 37 in Shorrolds.

As far as I am aware there was no exercise to weed out other estate agents showing houses or passers by (why should there be an obvious need at time?) on way to N End Rd market. It was a thoroughfare so plenty going by I am sure. The emphasis was on finding witnesses for couple outside 37.

 

[RichardKimble]

Thank you so much RK for going to the trouble. I was a little delirious and tired and all these scenarios were going through my mind. I had my heart set on the canal as a good lead for the SL site.

Ahh, so it says in the woods near JC flat. Does anyone know how close his flat was to where he left SB? Was the stream close by? I have no knowledge of that area, I had used maps to find a possible distance but it was a rough distance between one known place and 'Bristol'

About 50 miles from Bristol to the Quantocks where SB was found, so over a hrs drive.

 

[Clairybums]

All this seems quite possible.

For a number of reasons, nothing can have been intended to happen at 37SR. Anyone intending to attack her there would have had no knowledge of the interior of the property, where the exits were, where they led, how soundproof it was, how likely the owner was to return, or any of that. The agency would know exactly where she had gone, either because she'd routinely told someone or because one set of keys was missing. So a search party would turn up pretty quickly - which indeed it did. If you're raping your victim as two blokes from her office walk in the front door how do you escape to your car - where does the back door lead to? Which, incidentally, was what got Cannan caught after the haberdashery shop rape in 1981 - the husband arrived at the locked front door and Cannan had to ask the victim where the back door went.

So if this was a planned abduction, the first thing you'd do is get her well away from where she was expected to be and would be looked for.

In doing so the abductor then had five immense strokes of luck:

1 - HR was an unreliable witness but believed,
2 - so was WJ,
3 - EM and BW, credible witnesses who undermined others, were disbelieved,
4 - the ditching of her car opposite a Sturgis sign was unjustifiably assumed to be significant,
5 - the family distributed misleading and out-of-date photos of a brunette to the press, because she looked prettier in those.

Hence here we are.

Great informative post! Thank you for this.

It does highlight the probability that past events and mistakes might make one steer clear of making similar mistakes by doing things a little differently. Not saying he had planned well but he knew what situations to avoid and like you say, he had luck on his side.

Very good bullet points too, firstly really frustrating about some of the witnesses. I guess people were so eager to help that they possibly were trying to give more information than what they actually knew. Then the Sturgis sign on 123SR is unfortunate too as I'm pretty sure there were probably many signs dotted around the streets but this one was only picked up on because of the dumped car. I know my ex used to do signage for another well known estate agent in the late 90s and there was a proper war going on with other estate agents all vying to have their signs up. He would be instructed to remove other's signs and replace them with theirs, regardless of whether they were actually dealing with that property or not. I'm not even joking, he would have to go out in the evening and rip them down and then the next morning go round the same properties and put new ones up. It was something like £1 or £2 per sign taken down and like £3 for each he put up. He could earn as much as he wanted and it was fully encouraged. He would also have to find his firms signs that had been taken down and re-affix them. Those property walls took a real battering. Not sure what things were like in the 80s.

Number 5 is very sad indeed. Part of me is thinking 'what the hell were these people thinking?' And the other part is sympathising as a mother who is so proud of her pretty and 'successful' daughter whose reputation she wanted to protect. I can't imagine what I would have done in those circumstances. I imagine DL probably, at least initially, thought in the back of her mind that SL would be found alive and well and there's no point airing her dirty laundry for what might turn out to be not a big deal. But the photos, I just don't get it, SL looked great in all of her photos.

 

[Rookie D]

Hi all.

I have tried to do a rough chronological timeline of what I believe may have transpired on the day of SL's abduction...


12.36pm
SL leaves the office and drives to Stevenage Road in her Fiesta

12.43pm
SL parks in Stevenage Road, where she is meeting Mr Kipper to view some properties. SL knows him and gets into his car. They drive off to Shorrolds Road.

12.45pm-12.50pm
WJ leaves her house and sees the Fiesta

12.49pm
Mr K drops SL off in Shorrolds Road, while he quickly goes to park up, and bring the champagne bottle.

12.50pm
SL is seen standing outside 37SR waiting for Mr K.

12.52pm
Mr K arrives and together they go inside the property.

12.59pm
Mr K and SL leave the property and are heard and seen doing so.

1pm
Mr K and SL are seen standing outside 37SR by another witness

1.03pm
Mr K convinces SL to go and look at more properties in Stevenage Road.

1.10pm
Mr K drives SL back to Stevenage Road, and parks close by. SL and Mr Kipper get out of his car.

1.11pm
SL quickly gets her hat from her own car because she wants to be incognito.

1.12pm
After having just closed her car door, SL and Mr K then walk northwards up Stevenage Road, and are seen by a witness as she turns out of the side street. The witness sees SL wearing her hat.

1.42pm
The same witness returns and then observes SL standing in the front garden of 100 Langthorne Street.
Mr Kipper is seemingly inside the property.

1.55pm - 2pm
A Taxi cab driver who lives close by notices white car parked.

2.15pm
SL and Mr Kipper return to the Fiesta, but instead of parting ways, Mr Kipper tells SL he wants to see more properties. After having spent around an hour looking at properties in and around the area, SL is getting frustrated. They begin to argue.

2.17pm
A man waiting for a Taxi witnesses a furious argument between SL and Mr Kipper

2.20pm
A bearded man gets into a Taxi cab, and tells the driver of the argument he witnessed. He takes him to North End Road.

2.22pm
Mr K and SL are both now sitting in SL's Fiesta. SL drives off with Mr K, so he can run a few errands. These errands include visiting a property in Dorncliffe Road. SL is furious because she really needs to get back to the office, but she can't refuse him.

2.28pm
A witness driving north up Kelvedon Road witnesses a fierce argument between a female driver and her occupant when a white car drives fast and erratically towards him. He has to take evasive action. The white car is then seen indicating right towards the office in Fulham High Road.

2.29pm
Rather than stop at the office, SL turns right into a side road and heads north before turning west along Bishops Road toward Dorncliffe Road.

2.30pm-2.32pm
SL and Mr K stop arguing

2.33pm
SL parks up the Fiesta opposite 10 Dorncliffe Road, and is witnessed by a neighbour living opposite the garage, sitting in the car. Mr K is seen walking down the alley leading to the basement flat of 10 Dorncliffe Road.

2.38pm
Mr K gets back into the car and SL drives off with Mr K in the passenger seat. They head south towards Fulham High Road.

2.42pm
SL's friend BW witnesses SL driving northbound up Fulham Palace Road with Mr K in the car.

2.45pm-3.20pm
Mr K convinces SL to drive him somewhere and crucially, for her to get out of the car.
In this 35 minute time period, SL is abducted and then held captive somewhere locally.

3.24pm
Mr Kipper drives the Fiesta and arrives BACK to Stevenage Road and because he doesn't want to be seen, he simply parks it and gets out without applying the handbrake or locking the door, and crucially he parks it BACK in the same spot that he knew it was parked earlier. i.e. near the garage.

3.25pm
Mr Kipper gets back into his own car and drives off to deal with SL.

3.30pm
WJ arrives back home and notices the car parked opposite. In her mind, it hasn't moved.

5pm
The man who owns the garage drives into it and notices the back of the white car slightly overhanging.

10.01pm
The car is found.



So to summarize, the white fiesta is in Stevenage road between 12.43pm - 2.22pm, and then again from 3.24pm to when it's found.
The only time the car is not in Stevenage Road is between 2.22pm - 3.24pm.


Mr Kipper takes SL to a location that is within a 35 minute timeframe, in TOTAL.

Note that the further away from Stevenage Road that SL is being held, the shorter the time frame Mr Kipper has to get the car back to Stevenage Road before WJ sees it again at 3.30pm.

That means that in order to get the car back BEFORE 3.30pm, SL couldn't have been taken that far from Fulham. This is evidenced by the fact she is seen alive and well circa 2.45pm by her friend BW.

And the reason why Mr Kipper returns to Stevenage Road?

He has to pick his own car up again, and wants everyone to think that the white car hasn't moved.

So,

Thoughts?

 

[Konstantin]

Which, incidentally, was what got Cannan caught after the haberdashery shop rape in 1981 - the husband arrived at the locked front door and Cannan had to ask the victim where the back door went.

This is why I'm very skeptical about Cannan. From his past history, his crimes were impulsive and/or badly planned and thought out. Driven by desire and impulse. You'd think he'd absolutely have tried attacking her inside and empty property and wouldn't have even thought that her colleagues would stop by. Why would they though - not until she was missed much later - he'd have been well away by then. But she wasn't attacked there. I think this was a fake appointment set up as a cover for something else.

He heard a bang & said later possibly a car door not the door at 37.

And AS I think notes that he later admitted to police it could have been a door closing on the other side of him. It's a terrace.

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

@Rookie D I think on balance of probabilities and evidence, WJ, was wrong on first sighting. The police were worried at time timing was far too tight. They staged a reconstruction and tried to squeeze to fit, if you factor in queuing, walks on embankment, returning a puppy to a house and getting kids in and out of car...It doesn't work.

It also means the timeline begins to make more sense.

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

This is why I'm very skeptical about Cannan. From his past history, his crimes were impulsive and/or badly planned and thought out. Driven by desire and impulse. You'd think he'd absolutely have tried attacking her inside and empty property and wouldn't have even thought that her colleagues would stop by. Why would they though - not until she was missed much later - he'd have been well away by then. But she wasn't attacked there. I think this was a fake appointment set up as a cover for something else.

And AS I think notes that he later admitted to police it could have been a door closing on the other side of him. It's a terrace.

That's right on door.

JC could be very vengeful and plan methodically until the red mist got the better of him, more often than not. He had a campaign going against AR, with some precision. Brought to a halt by other events, but if unchecked, grave harm could have come to her/her family.

If SL had upset him by refusing his trip to Poole on her bank hol Birthday weekend in May (first one) (and we know she DID turn a boyfriend down and went to Wales at the last minute instead with family and cousins) this might have prompted him killing SC exactly then.

It might have meant he put a plan in place about then to get his revenge. Although if behind the 'deal' that might have got in way. Did he think he could extract money from her/borrow? She wouldn't have been able to write a valid cheque on Mon 28th July. Was that a factor?

The above does also point to AL really being only a 'boyfriend' almost for appearances sake by then. How would she easily explain a weekend away?