UK UK - Suzy Lamplugh, 25, Fulham, 28 Jul 1986 #8

[GTB72]

@Rookie D I think on balance of probabilities and evidence, WJ, was wrong on first sighting. The police were worried at time timing was far too tight. They staged a reconstruction and tried to squeeze to fit, if you factor in queuing, walks on embankment, returning a puppy to a house and getting kids in and out of car...It doesn't work.

It also means the timeline begins to make more sense.

BBM. Was this in the Christopher Berry Dee book? Don't recall it in the AS book?

 

[GTB72]

Hi all.

I have tried to do a rough chronological timeline of what I believe may have transpired on the day of SL's abduction...


12.36pm
SL leaves the office and drives to Stevenage Road in her Fiesta

12.43pm
SL parks in Stevenage Road, where she is meeting Mr Kipper to view some properties. SL knows him and gets into his car. They drive off to Shorrolds Road.

12.45pm-12.50pm
WJ leaves her house and sees the Fiesta

12.49pm
Mr K drops SL off in Shorrolds Road, while he quickly goes to park up, and bring the champagne bottle.

12.50pm
SL is seen standing outside 37SR waiting for Mr K.

12.52pm
Mr K arrives and together they go inside the property.

12.59pm
Mr K and SL leave the property and are heard and seen doing so.

1pm
Mr K and SL are seen standing outside 37SR by another witness

1.03pm
Mr K convinces SL to go and look at more properties in Stevenage Road.

1.10pm
Mr K drives SL back to Stevenage Road, and parks close by. SL and Mr Kipper get out of his car.

1.11pm
SL quickly gets her hat from her own car because she wants to be incognito.

1.12pm
After having just closed her car door, SL and Mr K then walk northwards up Stevenage Road, and are seen by a witness as she turns out of the side street. The witness sees SL wearing her hat.

1.42pm
The same witness returns and then observes SL standing in the front garden of 100 Langthorne Street.
Mr Kipper is seemingly inside the property.

1.55pm - 2pm
A Taxi cab driver who lives close by notices white car parked.

2.15pm
SL and Mr Kipper return to the Fiesta, but instead of parting ways, Mr Kipper tells SL he wants to see more properties. After having spent around an hour looking at properties in and around the area, SL is getting frustrated. They begin to argue.

2.17pm
A man waiting for a Taxi witnesses a furious argument between SL and Mr Kipper

2.20pm
A bearded man gets into a Taxi cab, and tells the driver of the argument he witnessed. He takes him to North End Road.

2.22pm
Mr K and SL are both now sitting in SL's Fiesta. SL drives off with Mr K, so he can run a few errands. These errands include visiting a property in Dorncliffe Road. SL is furious because she really needs to get back to the office, but she can't refuse him.

2.28pm
A witness driving north up Kelvedon Road witnesses a fierce argument between a female driver and her occupant when a white car drives fast and erratically towards him. He has to take evasive action. The white car is then seen indicating right towards the office in Fulham High Road.

2.29pm
Rather than stop at the office, SL turns right into a side road and heads north before turning west along Bishops Road toward Dorncliffe Road.

2.30pm-2.32pm
SL and Mr K stop arguing

2.33pm
SL parks up the Fiesta opposite 10 Dorncliffe Road, and is witnessed by a neighbour living opposite the garage, sitting in the car. Mr K is seen walking down the alley leading to the basement flat of 10 Dorncliffe Road.

2.38pm
Mr K gets back into the car and SL drives off with Mr K in the passenger seat. They head south towards Fulham High Road.

2.42pm
SL's friend BW witnesses SL driving northbound up Fulham Palace Road with Mr K in the car.

2.45pm-3.20pm
Mr K convinces SL to drive him somewhere and crucially, for her to get out of the car.
In this 35 minute time period, SL is abducted and then held captive somewhere locally.

3.24pm
Mr Kipper drives the Fiesta and arrives BACK to Stevenage Road and because he doesn't want to be seen, he simply parks it and gets out without applying the handbrake or locking the door, and crucially he parks it BACK in the same spot that he knew it was parked earlier. i.e. near the garage.

3.25pm
Mr Kipper gets back into his own car and drives off to deal with SL.

3.30pm
WJ arrives back home and notices the car parked opposite. In her mind, it hasn't moved.

5pm
The man who owns the garage drives into it and notices the back of the white car slightly overhanging.

10.01pm
The car is found.



So to summarize, the white fiesta is in Stevenage road between 12.43pm - 2.22pm, and then again from 3.24pm to when it's found.
The only time the car is not in Stevenage Road is between 2.22pm - 3.24pm.


Mr Kipper takes SL to a location that is within a 35 minute timeframe, in TOTAL.

Note that the further away from Stevenage Road that SL is being held, the shorter the time frame Mr Kipper has to get the car back to Stevenage Road before WJ sees it again at 3.30pm.

That means that in order to get the car back BEFORE 3.30pm, SL couldn't have been taken that far from Fulham. This is evidenced by the fact she is seen alive and well circa 2.45pm by her friend BW.

And the reason why Mr Kipper returns to Stevenage Road?

He has to pick his own car up again, and wants everyone to think that the white car hasn't moved.

So,

Thoughts?

Not bad at all. You seem to have incorporated everything there.

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

BBM. Was this in the Christopher Berry Dee book? Don't recall it in the AS book?

DV from his interview, some in AS on queuing etc, but from what WJ shared with DV it would have taken even longer. IMO wasn't feasible at start from AS and some police thought so too.

 

[GTB72]

That's right on door.

JC could be very vengeful and plan methodically until the red mist got the better of him, more often than not. He had a campaign going against AR, with some precision. Brought to a halt by other events, but if unchecked, grave harm could have come to her/her family.

If SL had upset him by refusing his trip to Poole on her bank hol Birthday weekend in May (first one) (and we know she DID turn a boyfriend down and went to Wales at the last minute instead with family and cousins) this might have prompted him killing SC exactly then.

It might have meant he put a plan in place about then to get his revenge. Although if behind the 'deal' that might have got in way. Did he think he could extract money from her/borrow? She wouldn't have been able to write a valid cheque on Mon 28th July. Was that a factor?

The above does also point to AL really being only a 'boyfriend' almost for appearances sake by then. How would she easily explain a weekend away?

Probably explains why some of his crimes were not planned well. Just couldn't control his impulses.

I am quite prepared to believe he could be almost unnaturally calm at other times and thus plan methodically.

 

[rvlvr]

SL and Mr Kipper return to the Fiesta, but instead of parting ways, Mr Kipper tells SL he wants to see more properties. After having spent around an hour looking at properties in and around the area, SL is getting frustrated. They begin to argue.

The issue with this, as I think has been mentioned before, is that she couldn’t have shown him more properties, because she wouldn’t have had the keys and particulars. No one is going to buy a house purely from having had a look at it from the outside, and Suzy would’ve known this as an experienced negotiator. JMO, I just can’t see her allowing herself to be strung along in this way.

I too think WJ’s lunchtime sighting is incorrect.

This is why I'm very skeptical about Cannan. From his past history, his crimes were impulsive and/or badly planned and thought out. Driven by desire and impulse.

Indeed. I can imagine him posing as a businessman and stringing her along, but it doesn’t explain why he would’ve killed her. What’s the motive? She’s worked out he’s a phoney? In terms of his reputation he’s nothing to lose, he’s not known to the Putney set, if she even knows any of his contacts they’re likely criminals too, no one’s going to care. Perhaps he was hoping to extract money from her in some way, but evidently he wasn’t skint, he had options (go back to Sutton Coldfield, or head across to Bristol).

If he attacked her in a fit of rage then that’s easy to imagine, but if Suzy was the woman seen arguing with a man by the taxi fare then evidently she isn’t killed there and then, not unless a murder in broad daylight went entirely unnoticed (possible but unlikely). Quite a lot still has to happen between then and whenever and wherever she meets her demise - especially if Suzy and Kipper really did stop by the Dorncliffe Road flat, at which point she’s apparently behind the wheel and presumably not in fear for her life.

 

[GTB72]

DV from his interview, some in AS on queuing etc, but from what WJ shared with DV it would have taken even longer. IMO wasn't feasible at start from AS and some police thought so too.

Thanks. The problem for the Police and ourselves by extention is trying to figure out the discrepancies in the timeline and in the witness statements. There are just so many variables.

Add in DL's interventions and the lead detective taking the huff with her and doing his best to eliminate JC and it's no wonder they never solved it.

 

[Rookie D]

The evidence concerning the chronology of SL's interactions with Mr Kipper, strongly suggest that they were both seen and heard arguing, but then seen post-confrontation being amicable; ergo, when seen by BW; as well as the Dorncliffe Road sighting.

The reason why BW's sighting was wholly dismissed by the police, was because they didn't believe that SL could be seen and heard arguing with her eventual abductor circa 2pm-2.30pm, but then be seen alive and well again in her car later on at 2.45pm.

Of course, in real life, people can argue and then resolve that argument.

What it does imply though, is that SL was comfortable enough with Mr Kipper to be able to argue with him and not be concerned about him killing her in the first instance.

It suggests familiarity with her killer.

 

[Rookie D]

The issue with this, as I think has been mentioned before, is that she couldn’t have shown him more properties, because she wouldn’t have had the keys and particulars. No one is going to buy a house purely from having had a look at it from the outside, and Suzy would’ve known this as an experienced negotiator. JMO, I just can’t see her allowing herself to be strung along in this way.

That's a valid point.

But I think it shouldn't be assumed that SL was the negotiator.

I think she may have also been the client.

In which case, Mr Kipper had the keys.

Which could then suggest that he was another estate agent.

She then parks up in Stevenage Road prior to Shorrolds Road, because she is viewing properties, and therefore needs 37SR as a ruse.

Note that her diary says to meet Mr Kipper outside the property at 37SR.

I think SL may have arranged a viewing of her own, but needed to park the car outside another Sturgis property because if her car was seen, she could say she was showing a client some other options.

Just a working hypothesis from my part of course.

 

[Clairybums]

It does seem evident that SB was alive when she got out of the car.

Make no mistake; JC's M.O. consisted of him making his victim fell they still had hope.

JC was all about the process of the kill, rather than just the act.

He always intended to kill SB, and he took joy from giving her some hope she would survive her ordeal.

Many serial killers play the same game.

That is perhaps one of the aspects that supports the idea that JC murdered SL; he got a thrill from the process that led from the initial meeting, then subsequent abduction,, and then on to the kill time itself.

The phone call to the pub is another aspect that JC was the killer; i.e. he made SL call the pub.

Of course, the thing that in some ways nullifies his involvement, is that he was only released on the Friday beforehand.

It all depends on how long the diary entry had been in that diary. If SL wrote that entry BEFORE the Friday 25th, then it would seem wholly unlikely that JC was the killer.

Unless perhaps the period he was on day release maybe he was able to hunt/scout during that time. I'm sure I remember watching at least one documentary where it was said the day release was quite lax with inmates having more freedom than maybe they should have. It makes me wonder (if it was JC and if he did in fact cross paths with the neighbour G from 10 Dorncliffe) whether G had told JC that when he gets out he should look him up). It's possible that it wasn't the first time he called at Dorncliffe. My father spotted a lot of the goings on to do with downstairs over the years but I'm sure there were other things or visitors he wouldn't have seen. Like, he wasn't propped up at the window 24/7. If he had seen the same man previously, I have no doubt he would have recognised him and that would have been mentioned by him to us. He had a good eye for detail and memory.

Just curious as to where exactly Sturgis was situated in relation to Dorncliffe because I have no memory of it being along the shops either side of my end of FRoad. I was there from 1979 (aged 13) till around 1983 (17) when I was back and forth over Putney bridge between my father's and my boyfriend's parents' in the flats opposite the Star and Garter pub (Lockyer House) and then 1984 for 1 year at my friend's in Burlington Road, right next to Fulham Pottery. So I was always around and in the area. I doubt at that age I would have taken note of estate agent 'shops'. By 1985 I was in Battersea so it was just visits over to see my father/family and friends in the area.

I remember Atlas mini cabs, a large place on the right hand side on the bend round onto FPRoad (at the little roundabout). There was a dark skinned man (middle east or Asian) who was really creepy, the way he would look at me and other females. I'm sure, as well as his mini cab business, he also had properties and he used to rent rooms out. It wasn't him by the way, this man was probably in his 40s, a plump little man who was not very nice looking. Is anyone else here who lived in the area? Maybe you'll remember him?

Anyway, I'm wandering off topic so that's my theories for now.

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

I think SL simply wanted out of deal, after a rendezvous at 37 Shorrolds, then an unexpected lunch where he tried to persuade her still to continue with the planned purchase (sighting at restaurant).

I think Dorncliffe stop poss where she twigged how shady things were & row and escalation AFTER BW sighting, NOT before, which might just fit with timings still.

Address fraud - what this man may have been proposing NB: relevant article upthread & ‘strings’ likely eventually felt far too risky.

If any drugs link, indirectly to JC otherwise, it may explain any shadowing in the van EH saw & lunchtime the calls to pub. The ‘group’ of people theory the police had, that we don’t have the details for, may with fit Dorncliffe pit stop etc.

SL was feisty & if she threatened to report, perhaps action was taken, unfortunately.

A van could spirit her away quickly…

 

[Clairybums]

Hi all.

I have tried to do a rough chronological timeline of what I believe may have transpired on the day of SL's abduction...


12.36pm
SL leaves the office and drives to Stevenage Road in her Fiesta

12.43pm
SL parks in Stevenage Road, where she is meeting Mr Kipper to view some properties. SL knows him and gets into his car. They drive off to Shorrolds Road.

12.45pm-12.50pm
WJ leaves her house and sees the Fiesta

12.49pm
Mr K drops SL off in Shorrolds Road, while he quickly goes to park up, and bring the champagne bottle.

12.50pm
SL is seen standing outside 37SR waiting for Mr K.

12.52pm
Mr K arrives and together they go inside the property.

12.59pm
Mr K and SL leave the property and are heard and seen doing so.

1pm
Mr K and SL are seen standing outside 37SR by another witness

1.03pm
Mr K convinces SL to go and look at more properties in Stevenage Road.

1.10pm
Mr K drives SL back to Stevenage Road, and parks close by. SL and Mr Kipper get out of his car.

1.11pm
SL quickly gets her hat from her own car because she wants to be incognito.

1.12pm
After having just closed her car door, SL and Mr K then walk northwards up Stevenage Road, and are seen by a witness as she turns out of the side street. The witness sees SL wearing her hat.

1.42pm
The same witness returns and then observes SL standing in the front garden of 100 Langthorne Street.
Mr Kipper is seemingly inside the property.

1.55pm - 2pm
A Taxi cab driver who lives close by notices white car parked.

2.15pm
SL and Mr Kipper return to the Fiesta, but instead of parting ways, Mr Kipper tells SL he wants to see more properties. After having spent around an hour looking at properties in and around the area, SL is getting frustrated. They begin to argue.

2.17pm
A man waiting for a Taxi witnesses a furious argument between SL and Mr Kipper

2.20pm
A bearded man gets into a Taxi cab, and tells the driver of the argument he witnessed. He takes him to North End Road.

2.22pm
Mr K and SL are both now sitting in SL's Fiesta. SL drives off with Mr K, so he can run a few errands. These errands include visiting a property in Dorncliffe Road. SL is furious because she really needs to get back to the office, but she can't refuse him.

2.28pm
A witness driving north up Kelvedon Road witnesses a fierce argument between a female driver and her occupant when a white car drives fast and erratically towards him. He has to take evasive action. The white car is then seen indicating right towards the office in Fulham High Road.

2.29pm
Rather than stop at the office, SL turns right into a side road and heads north before turning west along Bishops Road toward Dorncliffe Road.

2.30pm-2.32pm
SL and Mr K stop arguing

2.33pm
SL parks up the Fiesta opposite 10 Dorncliffe Road, and is witnessed by a neighbour living opposite the garage, sitting in the car. Mr K is seen walking down the alley leading to the basement flat of 10 Dorncliffe Road.

2.38pm
Mr K gets back into the car and SL drives off with Mr K in the passenger seat. They head south towards Fulham High Road.

2.42pm
SL's friend BW witnesses SL driving northbound up Fulham Palace Road with Mr K in the car.

2.45pm-3.20pm
Mr K convinces SL to drive him somewhere and crucially, for her to get out of the car.
In this 35 minute time period, SL is abducted and then held captive somewhere locally.

3.24pm
Mr Kipper drives the Fiesta and arrives BACK to Stevenage Road and because he doesn't want to be seen, he simply parks it and gets out without applying the handbrake or locking the door, and crucially he parks it BACK in the same spot that he knew it was parked earlier. i.e. near the garage.

3.25pm
Mr Kipper gets back into his own car and drives off to deal with SL.

3.30pm
WJ arrives back home and notices the car parked opposite. In her mind, it hasn't moved.

5pm
The man who owns the garage drives into it and notices the back of the white car slightly overhanging.

10.01pm
The car is found.



So to summarize, the white fiesta is in Stevenage road between 12.43pm - 2.22pm, and then again from 3.24pm to when it's found.
The only time the car is not in Stevenage Road is between 2.22pm - 3.24pm.


Mr Kipper takes SL to a location that is within a 35 minute timeframe, in TOTAL.

Note that the further away from Stevenage Road that SL is being held, the shorter the time frame Mr Kipper has to get the car back to Stevenage Road before WJ sees it again at 3.30pm.

That means that in order to get the car back BEFORE 3.30pm, SL couldn't have been taken that far from Fulham. This is evidenced by the fact she is seen alive and well circa 2.45pm by her friend BW.

And the reason why Mr Kipper returns to Stevenage Road?

He has to pick his own car up again, and wants everyone to think that the white car hasn't moved.

So,

Thoughts?

Thats actually quite brilliant!

So well thought out. It helps to try to get inside of the mind of a criminal/rapist/killer, to imagine how they would think and their possible motives for doing this or that instead of doing something else. Well done!

I think BW saw them at 2.45? Or am I mistaken. But the possible turn of events I think is really plausible. Just trying to think where he might have stashed SL. Where would he have had access to? Would anyone have been willing to help him with this? Or maybe he conned someone into giving him access to a property and they were unaware of what he intended to use it for. Assuming the Kipper appointment in SL diary was legit and not something she just wrote for other purposes, then Mr Kipper (whether it was JC or someone else) would likely have been able to plan for this to some extent, I.e. it's not as slapdash as just grabbing someone off the street with no plan. Like with JC, he grabbed SB and took her to his flat which was likely his plan. There could potentially be someone out there who still has no clue they were used in the kidnap of SL. Worse still, there could be someone out there who does know and is just as sick.

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

Thats actually quite brilliant!

So well thought out. It helps to try to get inside of the mind of a criminal/rapist/killer, to imagine how they would think and their possible motives for doing this or that instead of doing something else. Well done!

I think BW saw them at 2.45? Or am I mistaken. But the possible turn of events I think is really plausible. Just trying to think where he might have stashed SL. Where would he have had access to? Would anyone have been willing to help him with this? Or maybe he conned someone into giving him access to a property and they were unaware of what he intended to use it for. Assuming the Kipper appointment in SL diary was legit and not something she just wrote for other purposes, then Mr Kipper (whether it was JC or someone else) would likely have been able to plan for this to some extent, I.e. it's not as slapdash as just grabbing someone off the street with no plan. Like with JC, he grabbed SB and took her to his flat which was likely his plan. There could potentially be someone out there who still has no clue they were used in the kidnap of SL. Worse still, there could be someone out there who does know and is just as sick.

Re: SB, she may have gone voluntarily, she may have given him a lift (& her fingerprints on doc suggest she could roam in living room perhaps). She & husband knew of JC by sight it seems from Avon Gorge hotel. SB’s husband certainly did.

BW poss 2:30 or a bit earlier for sighting.

JC had access to poss quite a bit of money that opens up a lot of opportunities & possibilities.

 

[Clairybums]

This is why I'm very skeptical about Cannan. From his past history, his crimes were impulsive and/or badly planned and thought out. Driven by desire and impulse. You'd think he'd absolutely have tried attacking her inside and empty property and wouldn't have even thought that her colleagues would stop by. Why would they though - not until she was missed much later - he'd have been well away by then. But she wasn't attacked there. I think this was a fake appointment set up as a cover for something else.

And AS I think notes that he later admitted to police it could have been a door closing on the other side of him. It's a terrace.

Is it possible that JC learned lessons from past crimes along the way and improved his chances of success by better planning? Or maybe there were instances where he was more able to plan and use controlled methods and other times where he became so overwhelmed with the need to attack that he threw caution to the wind. He seems like a bit of a chameleon to me. I imagine his moods set the tone. Just thinking about that dating interview too, there seems to be a whole lot going on in that head of his.

 

[Clairybums]

Re: SB, she may have gone voluntarily, she may have given him a lift (& her fingerprints on doc suggest she could roam in living room perhaps). She & husband knew of JC by sight it seems from Avon Gorge hotel. SB’s husband certainly did.

BW poss 2:30 or a bit earlier for sighting.

JC had access to poss quite a bit of money that opens up a lot of opportunities & possibilities.

Oh wow, I wasn't aware of SB contact previously. Thank you. I think was suggested somewhere that SB may have intentionally planted her fingerprint to leave a clue. Or was it that the detective did a eureka on JC, who was confident they would find no evidence in his flat.. it was one of those scenarios. Maybe if she felt she might be in danger (akin to a victim writing their killer's name in blood type of thing but pre-emptively). Or maybe she was trying to get a look at his name and address in order to report him later (not realising she wasn't going to be going home). It's a scary thought that you just don't know who you might encounter.

I remember at about age 15 (I liked wearing makeup and looked maybe 18). A young blonde man in a white mini pulled up alongside the pavement where I was walking FRoad and called out asking me if I wanted to go for a drive. I politely declined and I thought that was that but no... I turned onto my road (Dorncliffe) and the next thing he pulled round the corner and then turned the car towards the row of garages that were there at the start of the road, thereby cutting across my path. He tried again to encourage me to come for a drive. I ran round the car and ran home in a panic after which he drove off. It didn't even occur to me until afterwards that he might have seen where I lived, I just wanted to get indoors to safety. My father then ran out to see if he could spot him but he was gone. Could he have been a potential rapist or murderer? Or was he just a genuine but misguided bloke? Who knows. I was paranoid for a long while after that day. Probably should have reported it, not sure why I didn’t to be honest. I think I was just relieved I got home at the time.

Ahh ok (re. timing) I think I'm just getting confused

 

[rvlvr]

That's a valid point.

But I think it shouldn't be assumed that SL was the negotiator.

I think she may have also been the client.

In which case, Mr Kipper had the keys.

Which could then suggest that he was another estate agent.

She then parks up in Stevenage Road prior to Shorrolds Road, because she is viewing properties, and therefore needs 37SR as a ruse.

Note that her diary says to meet Mr Kipper outside the property at 37SR.

I think SL may have arranged a viewing of her own, but needed to park the car outside another Sturgis property because if her car was seen, she could say she was showing a client some other options.

Just a working hypothesis from my part of course.

True, although you’d think there’d have been sightings of them popping in and out of houses if that was the case? Police supposedly received calls saying MG looked like Kipper, you’d think they’d have had tips about any West London estate agent resembling the sketch and/or e-fit? Surely wouldn’t have been too hard to make the connection?

 

[Officer Dibble]

I think this new sighting is very interesting, There’s perhaps a new context to the odd ‘keep her talking until I can get there’ call to the pub. (DV). A warning from a person who had some but not all the information on her whereabouts (?)

It’s interesting too SL had looked into being a ‘courier’ to subsidise flights (AS). Legitimately. Someone injecting money into a property with ‘strings attached’ as her parents said & maybe asking her to drop packages off etc? ‘Using their address’ - this bit was flagged re: address. Maybe it didn’t seem dangerous or illegal to her (?) Just like taking packages potentially on a plane had been within law.

Her parents said she’d never entertain serious fraud, (I am sure they were right) and she thought she could ‘handle it’ & maybe it only dawned on her (unfortunately too late) it was all very dicey. She pulled out and this led to her abduction etc (?)

It was said in Press that the police had one theory that a couple of people were involved, plus, poss including JC. It felt farfetched to me but if the man at Donralie overlapped at Scrubs with JC?

Some very good points IMO including the BBM.

 

[Officer Dibble]

yes, great minds think alike. this is how i think it played out on the 28/7/1986.

Killed at the house - neighbour of @Clairybums Father?

 

[Officer Dibble]

There was a witness to te sound of an altercation with the male voice saying I warned you.

An elderly woman later came forward saying she heard a commotion in the woods near John’s flat on the 9th. She reported to have heard a woman’s voice screaming ‘’No, no!’’ and a man replying "I warned you what I would do" as well as choking sounds. She then claimed that she saw a man with ‘dark, curly hair’. Police originally took this witness statement with a pinch of salt.

https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueCrimeDiscussion/comments/1duvg1d/on_october_8th_1987_29yearold_shirley_banks_was

A 69-year-old woman came forward to say she had heard a violent struggle in woods near Cannan’s house, the day after Shirley was abducted.

Bristol killer John Cannan 'could have killed more'

As part of our Crimes that shook Bristol series, we look at John Cannon who killed Shirley Banks, but was he responsible for more deaths?

www.bristolpost.co.uk

Thank you for reminding us of this. It all seems to add up now. Are the Police taking you seriously now @Clairybums ?

 

[Officer Dibble]

Also the call to taxi firm. Chilling MO.

Please remind me of this

 

[kes1972]

All this seems quite possible.

For a number of reasons, nothing can have been intended to happen at 37SR. Anyone intending to attack her there would have had no knowledge of the interior of the property, where the exits were, where they led, how soundproof it was, how likely the owner was to return, or any of that. The agency would know exactly where she had gone, either because she'd routinely told someone or because one set of keys was missing. So a search party would turn up pretty quickly - which indeed it did. If you're raping your victim as two blokes from her office walk in the front door how do you escape to your car - where does the back door lead to? Which, incidentally, was what got Cannan caught after the haberdashery shop rape in 1981 - the husband arrived at the locked front door and Cannan had to ask the victim where the back door went.

So if this was a planned abduction, the first thing you'd do is get her well away from where she was expected to be and would be looked for.

In doing so the abductor then had five immense strokes of luck:

1 - HR was an unreliable witness but believed,
2 - so was WJ,
3 - EM and BW, credible witnesses who undermined others, were disbelieved,
4 - the ditching of her car opposite a Sturgis sign was unjustifiably assumed to be significant,
5 - the family distributed misleading and out-of-date photos of a brunette to the press, because she looked prettier in those.

Hence here we are.

But what better place then than a basement flat?