UK UK - Suzy Lamplugh, 25, Fulham, 28 Jul 1986 #8

[Rookie D]

So can we brainstorm on a 20 minute opportunity to incapacitate sl , if we give a 10 minute car journey each way, what possible excuse to get sl to go on that journey, a sturgis house for sale further away? A question though if earlier sl had argued with mr k how did that manage to de escalate for her to wait in the car at dorncliffe, she would have to know that person very well for that to happen and give him so much of her time, so a longer term relationship? If not sl could just have driven off at dorncliffe, if drug related maybe that would have made her wait as she would maybe not have been able to get out of that situation as maybe mr k could have turned up at her place of work.
So sl could have a blazing row/fight with mr k, but also then descalate enough to have a car journey and then sit in the car and await return, does not seem possible, sl must have been expecting payment or receipt of money?
Ps - are we ignoring the woman laughing/ screaming in the bmw?

Regarding the BMW sighting; yes, I don't believe it happened at all.

It just doesn't quite fit because if a car had screeched to a halt, and one of the occupants had then been hooting the car horn continuously, followed by the car speeding off along the road; it would have been witnessed, or at least heard by others.

The witness waits for over a decade and then comes forward with a dramatic sequence of events that only he witnesses.

That said, the bearded man also claims to have heard an argument that nobody else witnessed either, and the fact that he never came forward, also makes him a person of interest IMO. He's clearly not Mr Kipper, but the question remains; why didn't he come forward?

Regarding the BMW witness, the left hand drive BMW also doesn't match JC's right hand drive BMW.

Of course, JC allegedly drove a Red Sierra at that time, which is intriguing considering the photo I uploaded upthread from the reconstruction, which clearly shows a Red Sierra parked virtually opposite the white Fiesta.

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

@Rookie D I think Langthorne sighting was 13 years later, post 2000 appeal so maybe we can’t be as sure here.

 

[kes1972]

Regarding the BMW sighting; yes, I don't believe it happened at all.

It just doesn't quite fit because if a car had screeched to a halt, and one of the occupants had then been hooting the car horn continuously, followed by the car speeding off along the road; it would have been witnessed, or at least heard by others.

The witness waits for over a decade and then comes forward with a dramatic sequence of events that only he witnesses.

That said, the bearded man also claims to have heard an argument that nobody else witnessed either, and the fact that he never came forward, also makes him a person of interest IMO. He's clearly not Mr Kipper, but the question remains; why didn't he come forward?

Regarding the BMW witness, the left hand drive BMW also doesn't match JC's right hand drive BMW.

Of course, JC allegedly drove a Red Sierra at that time, which is intriguing considering the photo I uploaded upthread from the reconstruction, which clearly shows a Red Sierra parked virtually opposite the white Fiesta.

1- surely the taxi driver becomes the man of interest as no corroboration and same with the jogger ? Imo i have always had a question mark over the taxi driver/jogger
Ps was there any big news or police investigating happening in the sl case around the time the jogger came forward?

 

[kes1972]

Regarding the BMW sighting; yes, I don't believe it happened at all.

It just doesn't quite fit because if a car had screeched to a halt, and one of the occupants had then been hooting the car horn continuously, followed by the car speeding off along the road; it would have been witnessed, or at least heard by others.

The witness waits for over a decade and then comes forward with a dramatic sequence of events that only he witnesses.

That said, the bearded man also claims to have heard an argument that nobody else witnessed either, and the fact that he never came forward, also makes him a person of interest IMO. He's clearly not Mr Kipper, but the question remains; why didn't he come forward?

Regarding the BMW witness, the left hand drive BMW also doesn't match JC's right hand drive BMW.

Of course, JC allegedly drove a Red Sierra at that time, which is intriguing considering the photo I uploaded upthread from the reconstruction, which clearly shows a Red Sierra parked virtually opposite the white Fiesta.

Agree on the red sierra, possibly parked near a house used? I asked the question earlier do you know where that picture of the red sierra is on stevenage road?

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

Regarding the BMW sighting; yes, I don't believe it happened at all.

It just doesn't quite fit because if a car had screeched to a halt, and one of the occupants had then been hooting the car horn continuously, followed by the car speeding off along the road; it would have been witnessed, or at least heard by others.

The witness waits for over a decade and then comes forward with a dramatic sequence of events that only he witnesses.

That said, the bearded man also claims to have heard an argument that nobody else witnessed either, and the fact that he never came forward, also makes him a person of interest IMO. He's clearly not Mr Kipper, but the question remains; why didn't he come forward?

Regarding the BMW witness, the left hand drive BMW also doesn't match JC's right hand drive BMW.

Of course, JC allegedly drove a Red Sierra at that time, which is intriguing considering the photo I uploaded upthread from the reconstruction, which clearly shows a Red Sierra parked virtually opposite the white Fiesta.

JC was at car auctions apparently in May 86 in Poole, just as an aside. Could he have picked up a (cheap) LHD BMW?

BMW man apparently could identify where pop up police station was in Stevenage Rd where he allegedly reported in 86. With you on noise - surely others would have noticed?

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

1- surely the taxi driver becomes the man of interest as no corroboration and same with the jogger ? Imo i have always had a question mark over the taxi driver/jogger
Ps was there any big news or police investigating happening in the sl case around the time the jogger came forward?

Jogger came forward in 2000 but allegedly first in 86 - see upthread.

Taxi driver at time - why couldn’t he be certain when he picked up fare? (Galway-a-like) metre not time stamped? He could be certain on the cost. Wasn’t it unusual for ordinary guy to use a taxi for a short hop, skip jump & relatively ££ way to go a short distance in 86?

Galway-a-like sounded really disturbed by what he’d seen ‘thank Christ you came along when you did!’. Maybe why he took taxi to escape difficult scene. Why no concern for woman? Did he feel guilty hence not coming forward? To have that reaction he must surely have seen something very extreme (?)

 

[Rookie D]

Agree on the red sierra, possibly parked near a house used? I asked the question earlier do you know where that picture of the red sierra is on stevenage road?

This is the shot taken from the original Crimewatch reconstruction.

The light blue car on the left belongs to the garage owner located just behind the white Fiesta
The black taxi cab on the left COULD belong to the same taxi driver who saw the white Fiesta parked "just before 2pm" but there's also ANOTHER Black taxi parked up on the left, located 3 cars behind the white Fiesta.
The white Fiesta is parked opposite 123 Stevenage Road
There also appears to be ANOTHER white car parked 2 car lengths behind the Fiesta; i.e. the other side of the garage entrance.
The Red Sierra is parked directly opposite the black taxi; ergo, 2 car lengths away from 123 Stevenage Road.

That places the Red Sierra outside the 2nd OR 3rd house from the corner of the street, which is seen on the far right of the picture. This exact same lamppost on the street corner can be seen in the 2000 reconstruction!

The lamppost was removed sometime between 2001 and 2008, because it wasn't there on the 2008 Google Maps.

This means that the light blue car here on the left is parked virtually on the corner of the junction of Langthorne Street

But what's really crucial here, is that when the witness sees the woman in the hat walking with the man in the suit, she sees them as they walk along that wall to the left, directly next to the black taxi cab. This means that the woman in the hat was seen just 2 car lengths away from the white Fiesta.

It seems fairly evident therefore, that the witness had just missed SL get her hat out from her car.

This again ties in roughly with my proposed timeline presented upthread.

It would be good to know who that Red Sierra in this photo belonged to?

Because if there's any way to enhance that photo, and then the Reg matches Cannan's Red Sierra, then boom!

It is also particularly horrifying to consider that SL may have been subdued and then dumped in the boot of that very same car we can see in this photo.

Where's the last place someone would look for a body?

In the car parked opposite.

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

@Rookie D where was the phone box 2 mins from car? In reality up by football stadium? I think one on corner of Finlay near argument?

Did the roadworks influence parking? How busy was road. Any kids hol event on at stadium?

For me hat witness feels dubious, 14 years later & why wear on dull, not warm, not sunny day? Jogger also seems to assume a glorious summer’s day…

 

[lee sumner]

Not to mention returning dog & walking around embankment (DV) & taking enough time to cash up coins, to worry causing distress to others queuing, so glancing at clock to note time (AS). Plus you’ve got to get kids in & out of car.

If we take the first WJ sighting out things begin to make more sense.

it does not make sense and if it makes no sense, its because its not true.

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

it does not make sense and if it makes no sense, its because its not true.

Agree & a shame it was included as only served to confuse.

Always careful about saying anything for absolute definite, but fact police were trying to say she left office earlier than she did at one point to accommodate this sighting, does rather speak volumes.

 

[lee sumner]

Liquid lunches were commonplace in the 80s. A lot of tradesman and men who were self employed went for daytime drinks with pals.

Criminal types also did the same, as did the detectives who were hunting them.

There were a few pubs in Fulham and Putney which were 'villains' pubs, and a few which were 'police' pubs. The police obviously went to pubs local to the police stations.

there was a famous gangster who done TV work and film work. his name was john bindon and fulham was his area where he ran protection rackets in the 1970s., so yes, i bet there were many villain type pubs in fulham/putney area.

 

[lee sumner]

Agree & a shame it was included as only served to confuse.

Always careful about saying anything for absolute definite, but fact police were trying to say she left office earlier than she did at one point to accommodate this sighting, does rather speak volumes.

if we exclude it things start to make sense. SL had no reason to be on stevenage rd, so if she was never there, then stevenage rd was the location chosen in advance by mr kipper to ditch SL car.

 

[Clairybums]

So can we brainstorm on a 20 minute opportunity to incapacitate sl , if we give a 10 minute car journey each way, what possible excuse to get sl to go on that journey, a sturgis house for sale further away? A question though if earlier sl had argued with mr k how did that manage to de escalate for her to wait in the car at dorncliffe, she would have to know that person very well for that to happen and give him so much of her time, so a longer term relationship? If not sl could just have driven off at dorncliffe, if drug related maybe that would have made her wait as she would maybe not have been able to get out of that situation as maybe mr k could have turned up at her place of work.
So sl could have a blazing row/fight with mr k, but also then descalate enough to have a car journey and then sit in the car and await return, does not seem possible, sl must have been expecting payment or receipt of money?
Ps - are we ignoring the woman laughing/ screaming in the bmw?

As to the question of why SL waited in the car, my brother and I were discussing this last week and he came up with the possibility that he might have taken the keys from the ignition when he went to the basement flat and that maybe she didn't want to just leave the company car there. At this point in time, they may have been arguing but I'm pretty sure she wouldn't be automatically 'thinking this man is going to rape or kill me'.

The other day on the thread someone asked about whether she had got out of the car since as it was facing toward Hestercombe Ave she would have been on the far side so for my father to see her hair colour and also to be able to recognise her when her photo showed on the news it wouldn't have been possible had she not got out of the car. It's my belief that she must have got out, I just unfortunately can't remember if my father told us or not and neither can my brother. There's no reason he wouldn't have mentioned that part of events, I just don't want to make stuff up to compensate for my lack of this memory. I am sure though that he didn't remark on her demeanor or any viewed distress from her and I think he would have noticed and told us. As far as my father was concerned, he thought they were a couple and he was trying to make sense of the man visiting downstairs. It was odd, he did not fit. There could have been a thought process going on whereby my father may have dismissed a drug angle initially and assumed the visitor was there for a different or official purpose (with it being during office hours and not in the night time too - just surmising) and then, when he saw the news flash about her being missing (he recognised her straight away, no umming and ahhing, that was her) and went on to tell my brother everything he remembered, the car colour, that the car was a hatchback, the hat on the back shelf and the dark haired man in the suit who went down the side alley. He wasn't able to give the make of car but I think he did pretty well considering he didn't know he would have to recall the details. Then when the car was recovered he jumped up from his chair and shouted "That's the car!". Ive left out the swearing. He was animated, at the tv pointing at the hat he had seen. That's when my brother started taking it seriously. I don't know if he went to Fulham police station the same day as the missing Suzy photo or the next morning (his statement would show that). Knowing him, I think he would have gone straight down there with a bee in his bonnet.

Back to the why... I think the man was able to placate SL and calm the situation down, he would have surely known he had to because the more the public arguing dragged on, the more attention it would attract, the more chance someone might step in and the less chance of carrying out his abduction or whatever plan was in mind.

My brain hurts

 

[Clairybums]

there was a famous gangster who done TV work and film work. his name was john bindon and fulham was his area where he ran protection rackets in the 1970s., so yes, i bet there were many villain type pubs in fulham/putney area.

I'd say there were more than a few in the Durrell Arms at least.

 

[GTB72]

Agree & a shame it was included as only served to confuse.

Always careful about saying anything for absolute definite, but fact police were trying to say she left office earlier than she did at one point to accommodate this sighting, does rather speak volumes.

BBM. From Sturgis to 37SR it's a 3 minute drive according to Google Maps. So if you take the first sighting of her outside 37 at 12.50 and she has driven directly there then that means she would have left at latest 12.47,which is later than WJ sighting on Stevenage Road.

 

[lee sumner]

Regarding the BMW sighting; yes, I don't believe it happened at all.

It just doesn't quite fit because if a car had screeched to a halt, and one of the occupants had then been hooting the car horn continuously, followed by the car speeding off along the road; it would have been witnessed, or at least heard by others.

The witness waits for over a decade and then comes forward with a dramatic sequence of events that only he witnesses.

That said, the bearded man also claims to have heard an argument that nobody else witnessed either, and the fact that he never came forward, also makes him a person of interest IMO. He's clearly not Mr Kipper, but the question remains; why didn't he come forward?

Regarding the BMW witness, the left hand drive BMW also doesn't match JC's right hand drive BMW.

Of course, JC allegedly drove a Red Sierra at that time, which is intriguing considering the photo I uploaded upthread from the reconstruction, which clearly shows a Red Sierra parked virtually opposite the white Fiesta.

BMW witness 14 yrs later should not even be included in the case file. SIO, DCI jim dickie believes this sighting is credible. not sure why.

 

[lee sumner]

I'd say there were more than a few in the Durrell Arms at least.

i thought fulham/putney were very middle class areas. were they gentrified areas back in the 1980s.

 

[Clairybums]

i thought fulham/putney were very middle class areas. were they gentrified areas back in the 1980s.

You'd think so but it was pretty mixed. Lots of yuppies and well to dos but also plenty of dodgy types too. There was Fulham Court of course and other social housing but also even in the victorian houses that were still under the council (like ours) not been sold off at that point. Long time tenants. I mean, it was a step up from where we moved from in Shepherd's bush, definitely posher than we were used to. I guess birds of a feather etc etc. I suppose it depends what type of dodgy. There were quite a few 'hard' blokes who got in the Durrell. My brother would drink in there with them. I don't mean dealers or anything but not particularly on the straight and narrow. To be honest though, I always felt more comfortable around them than around the posh types. When in Fulham, I always felt that Putney was more refined but that's also depending which part. Like most areas I guess, there are always pockets within of non middle class families.

 

[lee sumner]

Jogger came forward in 2000 but allegedly first in 86 - see upthread.

Taxi driver at time - why couldn’t he be certain when he picked up fare? (Galway-a-like) metre not time stamped? He could be certain on the cost. Wasn’t it unusual for ordinary guy to use a taxi for a short hop, skip jump & relatively ££ way to go a short distance in 86?

Galway-a-like sounded really disturbed by what he’d seen ‘thank Christ you came along when you did!’. Maybe why he took taxi to escape difficult scene. Why no concern for woman? Did he feel guilty hence not coming forward? To have that reaction he must surely have seen something very extreme (?)

i thought the same. if a couple was having a argument, why did he feel threatened. or did galway say this because he wanted to make sure the cabbie remembered exactly what he said. to misdirect.

 

[lee sumner]

You'd think so but it was pretty mixed. Lots of yuppies and well to dos but also plenty of dodgy types too. There was Fulham Court of course and other social housing but also even in the victorian houses that were still under the council (like ours) not been sold off at that point. Long time tenants. I mean, it was a step up from where we moved from in Shepherd's bush, definitely posher than we were used to. I guess birds of a feather etc etc. I suppose it depends what type of dodgy. There were quite a few 'hard' blokes who got in the Durrell. My brother would drink in there with them. I don't mean dealers or anything but not particularly on the straight and narrow. To be honest though, I always felt more comfortable around them than around the posh types. When in Fulham, I always felt that Putney was more refined but that's also depending which part. Like most areas I guess, there are always pockets within of non middle class families.

i come from a council estate, but there are good hardworking people in our area. like you said, you are more comfortable around the , jack the lads type, than the posh boys.