UK UK - Suzy Lamplugh, 25, Fulham, 28 Jul 1986 #8

[Clairybums]

So if we believe 37sr os , possible 2 double parked fiestas or white cars and a bmw and 2 men in a van. Not sure after 37sr what there is then? But also have the dorncliffe road sighting but no confirmed time unless clairybums can confirm that?

For some reason I keep thinking 2.20 but that could wrong. What I do remember is that when I read about the lady who knew SL spotting her driving on FPRoad, her time fit with my father's timing, allowing for time to get from Dorncliffe to FPRoad. For some reason I had it in my head that the sighting by BW was near the junction of FRoad/FPRoad but the main thing for me is that I remember that it fit. I have forgotten many things over the years but the things I remember are real and when I'm not clear on something I'll specify. I would guess that I read about the other witness not long after the other events (contacting the police when I found out the investigation had been reopened, writing to DL etc) or around the same time (possibly around 2005/2006). My brother was staying at my home for a while after splitting with his wife). I only found out about the reopening of the case by chance as I happened to look up and see if there was anything new about the case. I didn't obsess over it over the years (I had lots going on in my life, children, bills, etc) but sometimes it would pop into my head. So anyway, I was late but still contacted the number that had been given and had a visit from a policeman who brought along my father's statement from back in 1986. He told me and my brother that he did believe my father saw SL outside that day but that it wouldn't help further their efforts to find her. Even after my brother explained about the basement flat and the possible Scrubs connection with JC and the neighbour. We had to accept that (police know best i guess is what I thought).

 

[rvlvr]

Yes, this goes to my standard challenge to Cannan theories - do they explain / align with the known facts and sightings. There's no official police narrative of what he did that day - and nothing that explains how he spontaneously attacks her without anyone noticing.

Definitely.

Obviously his only known murder victim was Shirley Banks. We can sort of guess at how it played out based on his failed attempt to abduct Julia Holman the night before, but we can’t be certain of everything. And we can’t be certain of anything in the Lamplugh case.

The similarities in terms of the victims’ profiles are obvious but it’s far from certain imo that there are any similarities in the MO. And the more convoluted the theory becomes in the Lamplugh case the less similar the crimes seem to me. Throw in the Sandra Court murder, which if the perpetrator was a stranger to her then it was almost certainly an opportunistic crime, and the waters become even muddier.

Cannan didn’t play the long game, if he planned his attacks in advance then he evidently didn’t spend a lot of time thinking things through. But let’s imagine he’s been setting Suzy up for a while - no one ever sees them together? Where did they meet? They must have gone somewhere together at some point? No one in her many circles recognised Cannan at all? BW supposedly sees them on the day she’s killed - where were they hanging out prior to this? Whatever they were doing they were doing on the QT, Suzy doesn’t even appear to have any contact details for the bloke, or if she did police couldn’t fathom what they were looking at.

Then suddenly on the day of the murder, a day when if the killing was planned you’d think you’d definitely want to maintain that low profile, they’re apparently being spotted here there and everywhere, including by one woman who knew Suzy well. It doesn’t make a lot of sense. And maybe in a certain way that *does* point to Cannan being Kipper, given how imperfect his other crimes clearly were - but it still feels a clunky fit to me.

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

@rvlvr Agree on clunky fit but SA’s eventual conviction is meaningful & the interview given re: SL with JC’s looping (imaginary) car dealer as responsible for SL, SB ‘and another girl’ murders. He’s not in clever, showboating, baiting mode. He’s in big trouble.

Also the apparent fact he was looking to buy/rent/find property in Fulham with ‘Sue’ at about this time.

Also some sinister plotting & business set up evidence re: AR.

Having potentially & unusually quite a lot of cash at his disposal also makes things much easier for JC, if him, undoubtedly.

He had enough to have a phone line somewhere that took messages, he had enough to rent somewhere.

IF JC I think ‘deal with strings’ & association relatively brief.

The police evidently struggled with ‘contacts’ & ‘brief encounters’ there were ‘too many’ for police to check (AS) so only a sample looked at? Did anyone in later years go back through to look for known JC aliases: Townsend, Bryant, Peterson etc (?) Was the problem a lack of resources to ‘alibi’ all?

 

[kes1972]

Slight correction.

It's Richard Mahon, not Marne.


Coincidentally, just after RM got married, he and his wife were living in Epirus Road.

Epirus Road is the next road north of Shorrolds Road.

Both roads run west off of North End Road.

A small yet interesting nugget of coincidence.

Just a question was he the chef on the qe2?

 

[kes1972]

Posted before but interesting. This ‘Sue’ was reframed in doc ‘The Man Who Killed S L’ as being SL herself. Not so.

What is interesting is JC appears to have been looking for a place to live with ‘Sue’s’ help, in weeks before SL went missing.

Did al always have his hair forward like that? Looks like he is portraying himself as not mr k

 

[lee sumner]

Definitely.

Obviously his only known murder victim was Shirley Banks. We can sort of guess at how it played out based on his failed attempt to abduct Julia Holman the night before, but we can’t be certain of everything. And we can’t be certain of anything in the Lamplugh case.

The similarities in terms of the victims’ profiles are obvious but it’s far from certain imo that there are any similarities in the MO. And the more convoluted the theory becomes in the Lamplugh case the less similar the crimes seem to me. Throw in the Sandra Court murder, which if the perpetrator was a stranger to her then it was almost certainly an opportunistic crime, and the waters become even muddier.

Cannan didn’t play the long game, if he planned his attacks in advance then he evidently didn’t spend a lot of time thinking things through. But let’s imagine he’s been setting Suzy up for a while - no one ever sees them together? Where did they meet? They must have gone somewhere together at some point? No one in her many circles recognised Cannan at all? BW supposedly sees them on the day she’s killed - where were they hanging out prior to this? Whatever they were doing they were doing on the QT, Suzy doesn’t even appear to have any contact details for the bloke, or if she did police couldn’t fathom what they were looking at.

Then suddenly on the day of the murder, a day when if the killing was planned you’d think you’d definitely want to maintain that low profile, they’re apparently being spotted here there and everywhere, including by one woman who knew Suzy well. It doesn’t make a lot of sense. And maybe in a certain way that *does* point to Cannan being Kipper, given how imperfect his other crimes clearly were - but it still feels a clunky fit to me.

JC was organised to a certain degree, but he was also a reckless offender. when he attempted to abduct julia holman from the car park, was he watching out for any woman returning to there vehicles, or was holman the target. what is interesting is holman was driving a blue fiesta, the same model car as lamplugh. was this just a coincidence.

 

[lee sumner]

JC was organised to a certain degree, but he was also a reckless offender. when he attempted to abduct julia holman from the car park, was he watching out for any woman returning to there vehicles, or was holman the target. what is interesting is holman was driving a blue fiesta, the same model car as lamplugh. was this just a coincidence.

in dont believe JC was responsible for sandra court murder. iam sure he was ruled out.

 

[kes1972]

Yes, this goes to my standard challenge to Cannan theories - do they explain / align with the known facts and sightings. There's no official police narrative of what he did that day - and nothing that explains how he spontaneously attacks her without anyone noticing.

This is of course exactly the point. Nobody was in a position to state what cars were around. The reconstruction did not reconstruct every car on the street. None of us can say what cars were in our own street yesterday.

HR is a great example of this. He thought Mr Kipper was a thin, podgy bloke with short, long hair aged in his late twenties and mid-forties. He has no idea what he saw.

This. Although even the more solid evidence is not all that - he may have been in the area, but so may many others like him; he may have accidentally confessed, or he may have been outwitted by a skilled interviewer.

Realistic following what we choose to believe we have
Cv - pow buried on embankment or disused/overgrown viaduct (moo finding that the police found fulltime landlord an upstanding citizen, personally if anyone had contact with the local criminal fraternity/drug dealers it would be him) soon after the pub went down the swanee and closed i read, so obvious money troubles and why bring in an acting landlord if this was soon to happen ??
Or
Jc - taken somewhere and murdered

 

[lee sumner]

The taunting I meant was that he had already been arrested for SB so him saying the same person killed SL as SB seems like he's telling them he killed SL but knowing they can't do anything about it. I have only seen the one interview where he's quite a bit larger and wearing a top with stripes.

JC was playing mind games with detectives saying the man who killed SB also killed SL. this is what made me think it was JC. he was telling detective barley he did it but they cant prove it, but now iam thinking he wanted to be infamous in british criminal history, so dropping hints that he is the mysterious mr kipper will give him immortality which sadly a lot of serial killers get. to be forever remembered.

 

[ctaylor]

Sorry I am sure this has been discussed in previous threads but reading Christopher Berry Dee's book on John Cannan, he states a red Sierra that John Cannan had access to, was traced to a scrapyard in London. The DNA of Cannan, Suzy Lamplugh and Sandra Court were all found in the same car. The CPS decided that it didn't prove either SL or SC were in the car at the exact same time as Cannan.

Both woman's DNA in a car used by Cannan. It's impossible to be a coincidence, surely?

 

[kes1972]

Sorry I am sure this has been discussed in previous threads but reading Christopher Berry Dee's book on John Cannan, he states a red Sierra that John Cannan had access to, was traced to a scrapyard in London. The DNA of Cannan, Suzy Lamplugh and Sandra Court were all found in the same car. The CPS decided that it didn't prove either SL or SC were in the car at the exact same time as Cannan.

Both woman's DNA in a car used by Cannan. It's impossible to be a coincidence, surely?

I think it was around 60% match which really was not enough to prove either had been in the car

 

[ctaylor]

I think it was around 60% match which really was not enough to prove either had been in the car

Ah OK, he never mentioned a % in the book. This is taken from the book though -

The Metropolitan Police submitted the file to the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS), who concluded that ‘DNA belonging to Miss Lamplugh has been found in the car. DNA belonging to Cannan has been found in the same vehicle. But this does not imply that both persons were in that car at the same time.’

That seems like the Met thought it matched?

 

[kes1972]

Ah OK, he never mentioned a % in the book. This is taken from the book though -

The Metropolitan Police submitted the file to the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS), who concluded that ‘DNA belonging to Miss Lamplugh has been found in the car. DNA belonging to Cannan has been found in the same vehicle. But this does not imply that both persons were in that car at the same time.’

That seems like the Met thought it matched?

I am sure some other followers on here can fill you in on the finer detail.

 

[lee sumner]

Sorry I am sure this has been discussed in previous threads but reading Christopher Berry Dee's book on John Cannan, he states a red Sierra that John Cannan had access to, was traced to a scrapyard in London. The DNA of Cannan, Suzy Lamplugh and Sandra Court were all found in the same car. The CPS decided that it didn't prove either SL or SC were in the car at the exact same time as Cannan.

Both woman's DNA in a car used by Cannan. It's impossible to be a coincidence, surely?

i think this info is wrong. i have never heard this.

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

I think it was around 60% match which really was not enough to prove either had been in the car

The DNA showed no link to SL definitively.

 

[ctaylor]

I am sure some other followers on here can fill you in on the finer detail.

I am sure this is more detail, as it just seems almost too convenient. He did say that was the quote from the CPS in his book though. As I said, I am sure that had been mentioned before in the earlier threads but I just read that book last night and it stuck out. I am in awe at the depth of knowledge in these threads about this case!

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

There was no link to SL at all via DNA. Officially confirmed. What’s out there is inaccurate & misleading although I think may have been given in good faith at time.

 

[ctaylor]

i think this info is wrong. i have never heard this.

The quote from the CPS saying SL and JC's DNA were both in the same car was from a book by Christopher Berry Dee called Talking with Psychopaths - A Journey Into the Evil Mind.

The DNA link to Sandra Court was purely from this on Cannan's Wikipedia -

"Additionally, after a red Ford Sierra that Cannan had access to when Court was murdered was discovered at a north London scrapyard during the Lamplugh reinvestigations of the early-2000s, two hairs were found inside that matched the DNA of Court. Despite this, the DNA evidence was not strong enough to bring a prosecution against Cannan for her murder."

The citation on Wikipedia is from a Channel 5 documentary but I also found this from the Daily Echo newspaper from 12 November 2002 which seems to back it up.

​

 

[lee sumner]

The DNA showed no link to SL definitively.

yes. that is what i thought. no link to lamplugh.

 

[ctaylor]

There was no link to SL at all via DNA. Officially confirmed. What’s out there is inaccurate & misleading although I think may have been given in good faith at time.

Apologies for any confusion, I just haven't read through all the threads in full. The author quotes the CPS as confirming DNA of both SL and JC were in that car. That book was published in 2017 so maybe debunked since but if it had been debunked before that, he clearly shouldn't have published it with that in it.