Pinkizzy

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  • #1
  • #2
Please continue discussion here.
 
  • #3
Thanks silly billy much appreciated.
 
  • #4
I am unable to reply to a post at the end of #7. It meantioned Wardo alley or court? Is that the correct spelling with an O on the end? The post also mentioned a diary entry about a bike and Wardo on that day. Can that be explained a bit more please as I thought the only entry in the diary for that fateful day was Mr Kipper.
 
  • #5
I am unable to reply to a post at the end of #7. It meantioned Wardo alley or court? Is that the correct spelling with an O on the end? The post also mentioned a diary entry about a bike and Wardo on that day. Can that be explained a bit more please as I thought the only entry in the diary for that fateful day was Mr Kipper.

It was Wardo Avenue written in the diary. You can see the image if you search online for Suzy Lamplugh diary.

There was another entry for a 6pm appointment, plus something else crossed out at the top of the page.
 
  • #6
Hi this is what I posted and i have put an image of the top entry in her diary on that day for you.

If one believes BWs sighting of Sjl and a man on the FPR at 2.45, then she MUST have been doing something between Shorrolds and then. A business lunch with a possible purchaser seems credible enough. I can certainly believe that JC in the guise of businessman would fit the bill. I believe Sjl would've been taken in by him. For me though, given the profile of the investigation, someone would have seen something and come forward.
just coming back to the FPR sighting - Wardo avenue runs off FPR - and in her diary on that day was 142 Wardo - bike contract. I cannot see anything that has been investigated into that entry - or any explanation from Sturgis as to rule it out?


1756416721914.webp
 
  • #7
FWIW I think that the Wardo entry does not mean alot.

I am going through the earlier threads and to quote West Londoner Dec28 2021. Thanks WL.

See below.

The fact that SJL spoke to people about $3k commission (alot of $ in 1986) speaks to some other income source absolutely. WL has posted about this in Thread 2.
It is food for thought. The husband (who is only mentioned once in AS as TSS and I cannot find any reference to online nor PSS ) was apparently involved in property development.
The fact that the wife PSS showed up at ES avenue in a dramatic fashion saying they were going to have lunch on Monday 28th and she felt so bad about not being able to make it - I mean really? (according to AS). Now I think about that it seems a bit suss. but JMO.


I can’t why anyone would go to such convoluted lengths to ambush Suzy. If she did owe anyone money - and there’s never been a suggestion she did - that person would have known her well. They’d have known her name, her place of work, home address, and telephone numbers. There’s be absolutely no need to lure her into a public place.
According to AS, SJL was at one point supposed to be going into business with a friend and her husband, but she lost interest, perhaps because she envisaged making better money as an estate agent. Money had been spent on the intended venture and SJL then started avoiding this couple. At the same time she reported to her uncle that she being hassled by someone. Just after she disappeared, 8 days after in fact, the husband was declared bankrupt.

My conjecture is that on 28 July, this man is right on the edge and has blown money on something which now can't proceed, thanks to SJL. She's been avoiding him and his wife, so he tricks her into going somewhere he can confront her and demand off her the money she's made him waste.

There is evidence for the venture and someone hassling her. There is evidence from the police that she was remarkably successful at handling money to the point where they even wondered if she might be on the game. The conversation she had with someone on the Saturday, where she said she was expecting a £3,000 "commission", points to some other income stream. If she never went to Shorrolds, as seems likely, then whatever happened must have happened at the only other place she had a need to be headed for.

The BW sighting is challenging to fit into any timeline because it means SJL's car was seen in two places at once: in Stevenage Road and in the Fulham Palace Road, at 2.45. Either one sighting is wrong or both are. If BW is correct I can't think of any other course of events that fits.

The last photo of SJL was taken on Saturday, which was the day she had her hair highlighted. In it she is not especially blonde.
 
  • #8
" It is food for thought. The husband (who is only mentioned once in AS as TSS and I cannot find any reference to online nor PSS ) was apparently involved in property development.

The fact that the wife PSS showed up at ES avenue in a dramatic fashion saying they were going to have lunch on Monday 28th and she felt so bad about not being able to make it - I mean really? (according to AS). Now I think about that it seems a bit suss. but JMO."

Odd too that DV does not mention the couple at all in Finding Suzy. Perhaps they're litigious, and have protected themselves. I believe the husband is deceased, but she's pretty well-known. I don't think she's ever spoken about her relationship with Sjl, despite them seemingly having been besties until a couple months before Skl's disappearance.

It may be something, it may be nothing. Weird though.
 
  • #9
On some detail points above - the Wardo Avenue bike contract note most likely simply means "remember to bike over to the owner of that house in Wardo the contract whereby we're retained to sell his / her house".

Her imminent commission of £3,000 was quite likely just the ordinary sales commission on dwellings she'd sold. She talked about this on Saturday 26th July and payday was the following Thursday, the 31st (end of the month). Estate agents then charged about 2% commission, of which the one who won the instruction and the one whose buyer exchanged on the property would get 15%, i.e. 0.3% for either slice. My source for this is a friend who was an EA nearby in 1990; that was his pay structure. A commission of £3,000 is thus her slice of £1 million of property, which is about six or seven houses / flats - or fewer than that if she also won the instruction. The fact that she had a diary note to bike a contract round suggests that she did get involved in winning instructions as well as selling.

How blonde SJL actually was is a matter of opinion. The last (IIRC) photo taken of her was at the 21st birthday party she went to on Saturday, in which she doesn't look that blonde at all. This was right after the blonding was done. It was the family, conducting their own press conferences in their back garden, who unleashed all the brunette photos that so muddied the waters. While she certainly looks very pretty in many of them, it is not clear how representative they were.

It's instructive to compare some of the photos of her and look at her face and build. In some, she is decidedly jowly. In others, she is exceedingly svelte. It has been suggested she was slimming rapidly at the time; one wonders why. When women do this it is quite often new-bloke-related.

AS did indeed have access to the police files. As the police failed to find any killer until the press and the family told them it was Cannan, you wonder what special insight the files gave, if any. We can hazard a guess at what was omitted from the book from the comments about the News of the World quality of that material, the money offered for it and the hints left in AS. Without saying so expressly he indicates that she was four-timing AL - besides him there was DH, her persistent ex, someone she slept with the previous weekend and from memory one other besides. He'd been on holiday for a week but she promptly blanked him all weekend: very unfriendly. They should have been all over each other on the Friday.

The implication I draw is that she was yours for as long as you paid generously for everything; i.e. she was not "tomming it" but she was highly available to open-handed prosperous men, including married ones, whether she was herself ostensibly attached or not. This was still a thing in the 1980s - I knew many young women who spent literally nothing on their social life because they could get all of it paid for by their boyfriends.

This stuff was kept out because ultimately, DL was more concerned to preserve SJL's reputation than to find her killer. If - 100% hypothetically, this is not the true position - but if convicting SJL's killer would have revealed that she had been working as a hooker, DL in that case would have rather seen the case left unsolved.

This probably explains IMO AL's white lie to DV that he and SJL had never been to the PoW. In 1986 his story was that they went there on Friday and her stuff went missing. But the landlord is adamant her stuff was found on Sunday, in which case she was not there with AL at all. She'd already dumped him, but as a favour to DL and perhaps because he genuinely liked SJL, he tactfully misrepped what happened. I like him for doing this, even though it's unhelpful.

There is a much, much better possible case against Cannan, but it's not the one trotted out by the police, which relies on insinuation, misdirection and decades-old hearsay that's never admitted to as such. The publicly-made case against Cannan is based on this nonsense because it enables the police to say they only found out who did it years later. There were in fact many pointers to Cannan at the time, which they failed to follow up. The real case against him could have been made in 1986/7 and Shirley Banks would still be alive. One notable point is that AR, his married solicitor girlfriend, apparently remembered Cannan mentioning SJL to her before she disappeared. She reported these conversations to the police after she did so, and the police did nothing about it. They can't admit this, so that's why it's all "I saw Cannan looking in the window" 14 years after the fact. JMO.

Sandra Court is puzzling, but on balance Cannan probably did it IMO. Her belongings were scattered along the roadside at intervals of miles. If you plot where they were found, it's consistent with a logical route towards the M3 and back to London.

DV has done a good job picking apart "facts" that are often simply unacknowledged assumptions at the time. E.g HR is an unreliable witness whose minimum, least contentious claim is that he heard 37SR's door slam and saw 2 people coming out. When the police entered 37SR, they thought that nobody had been inside that day and they found no evidence SJL had ever been inside (if they had we'd know about it). With or without the keys, she never went inside, so HR's account is demonstrably embellished. Between DV's lines, it was MG who forgot to mention to the police that the keys they used to get in were the only set they had.

A point brought up but not parsed by DV is the odd behaviour of "CV" (= KH) in 1986. While the landlord MH is away, with CV in charge, the police visit the pub to retrieve the belongings of the country's most famous missing person, who's all over the press. When MH gets back, CV said....absolutely nothing. The first MH heard of the police visit was when they turned up a year later for a close-off chat and find that MH was not the landlord they'd spoken to a year before. Which is pretty odd - the first thing MH is going to say on his return would be "How did it go then? Any dramas?" To which CV evidently said "Nah, all quiet" and completely failed to mention the pub's role in a major news story. Eh?

There are three major problems with DV's alternative hypothesis. First, he glosses over the pub's floor having been lowered in the 1990s. How could you do that and not notice a body? Concealment on the embankment is more likely as the pub floor scenario would implicate a single person. On the embankment, she could have been put there by anyone. Second, without saying why, he ignores the BW sighting, which was by someone who knew her and which blows his pub scenario apart. Third, he ignores all the information laid against Cannan by JT, who had a flat within walking distance of 37SR.

DW strikes me as a waste of time to listen to. I've never heard him say anything he wasn't simply repeating from one of the many identical documentaries.
 
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  • #10
On some detail points above - the Wardo Avenue bike contract note most likely simply means "remember to bike over to the owner of that house in Wardo the contract whereby we're retained to sell his / her house".

Her imminent commission of £3,000 was quite likely just the ordinary sales commission on dwellings she'd sold. She talked about this on Saturday 26th July and payday was the following Thursday, the 31st (end of the month). Estate agents then charged about 2% commission, of which the one who won the instruction and the one whose buyer exchanged on the property would get 15%, i.e. 0.3% for either slice. My source for this is a friend who was an EA nearby in 1990; that was his pay structure. A commission of £3,000 is thus her slice of £1 million of property, which is about six or seven houses / flats - or fewer than that if she also won the instruction. The fact that she had a diary note to bike a contract round suggests that she did get involved in winning instructions as well as selling.

How blonde SJL actually was is a matter of opinion. The last (IIRC) photo taken of her was at the 21st birthday party she went to on Saturday, in which she doesn't look that blonde at all. This was right after the blonding was done. It was the family, conducting their own press conferences in their back garden, who unleashed all the brunette photos that so muddied the waters. While she certainly looks very pretty in many of them, it is not clear how representative they were.

It's instructive to compare some of the photos of her and look at her face and build. In some, she is decidedly jowly. In others, she is exceedingly svelte. It has been suggested she was slimming rapidly at the time; one wonders why. When women do this it is quite often new-bloke-related.

AS did indeed have access to the police files. As the police failed to find any killer until the press and the family told them it was Cannan, you wonder what special insight the files gave, if any. We can hazard a guess at what was omitted from the book from the comments about the News of the World quality of that material, the money offered for it and the hints left in AS. Without saying so expressly he indicates that she was four-timing AL - besides him there was DH, her persistent ex, someone she slept with the previous weekend and from memory one other besides. He'd been on holiday for a week but she promptly blanked him all weekend: very unfriendly. They should have been all over each other on the Friday.

The implication I draw is that she was yours for as long as you paid generously for everything; i.e. she was not "tomming it" but she was highly available to open-handed prosperous men, including married ones, whether she was herself ostensibly attached or not. This was still a thing in the 1980s - I knew many young women who spent literally nothing on their social life because they could get all of it paid for by their boyfriends.

This stuff was kept out because ultimately, DL was more concerned to preserve SJL's reputation than to find her killer. If - 100% hypothetically, this is not the true position - but if convicting SJL's killer would have revealed that she had been working as a hooker, DL in that case would have rather seen the case left unsolved.

This probably explains IMO AL's white lie to DV that he and SJL had never been to the PoW. In 1986 his story was that they went there on Friday and her stuff went missing. But the landlord is adamant her stuff was found on Sunday, in which case she was not there with AL at all. She'd already dumped him, but as a favour to DL and perhaps because he genuinely liked SJL, he tactfully misrepped what happened. I like him for doing this, even though it's unhelpful.

There is a much, much better possible case against Cannan, but it's not the one trotted out by the police, which relies on insinuation, misdirection and decades-old hearsay that's never admitted to as such. The publicly-made case against Cannan is based on this nonsense because it enables the police to say they only found out who did it years later. There were in fact many pointers to Cannan at the time, which they failed to follow up. The real case against him could have been made in 1986/7 and Shirley Banks would still be alive. One notable point is that AR, his married solicitor girlfriend, apparently remembered Cannan mentioning SJL to her before she disappeared. She reported these conversations to the police after she did so, and the police did nothing about it. They can't admit this, so that's why it's all "I saw Cannan looking in the window" 14 years after the fact. JMO.

Sandra Court is puzzling, but on balance Cannan probably did it IMO. Her belongings were scattered along the roadside at intervals of miles. If you plot where they were found, it's consistent with a logical route towards the M3 and back to London.

DV has done a good job picking apart "facts" that are often simply unacknowledged assumptions at the time. E.g HR is an unreliable witness whose minimum, least contentious claim is that he heard 37SR's door slam and saw 2 people coming out. When the police entered 37SR, they thought that nobody had been inside that day and they found no evidence SJL had ever been inside (if they had we'd know about it). With or without the keys, she never went inside, so HR's account is demonstrably embellished. Between DV's lines, it was MG who forgot to mention to the police that the keys they used to get in were the only set they had.

A point brought up but not parsed by DV is the odd behaviour of "CV" (= KH) in 1986. While the landlord MH is away, with CV in charge, the police visit the pub to retrieve the belongings of the country's most famous missing person, who's all over the press. When MH gets back, CV said....absolutely nothing. The first MH heard of the police visit was when they turned up a year later for a close-off chat and find that MH was not the landlord they'd spoken to a year before. Which is pretty odd - the first thing MH is going to say on his return would be "How did it go then? Any dramas?" To which CV evidently said "Nah, all quiet" and completely failed to mention the pub's role in a major news story. Eh?

There are three major problems with DV's alternative hypothesis. First, he glosses over the pub's floor having been lowered in the 1990s. How could you do that and not notice a body? Concealment on the embankment is more likely as the pub floor scenario would implicate a single person. On the embankment, she could have been put there by anyone. Second, without saying why, he ignores the BW sighting, which was by someone who knew her and which blows his pub scenario apart. Third, he ignores all the information laid against Cannan by JT, who had a flat within walking distance of 37SR.

DW strikes me as a waste of time to listen to. I've never heard him say anything he wasn't simply repeating from one of the many identical documentaries.

Do we have any more than just landlord MH's word that CV didn't tell him about the visit of the Police?
Maybe MH is as disingenuous a character as SL's boss comes across about the day of her disappearance JMO
 
  • #11
Thankyou very much for your detailed post Westlondoner . Can you explain to me the concept of winning instructions ? (I have googled it tonight ). But I do not really understand how that works in the employer /employee scenario un the UK


I have always found your posts to be so well thought out and logical.

Also I want to thank all of the other regulars on this thread as well for 1. being here and caring- respecting what others have to say. 2. presenting your own insights that are always a DPOV and makes you think of the alternatives.

My question is tonight - is there anywhere to go from here? Is her case now going to fade into obscurity because JC is dead ? I most certainly hope not. Is there anything us as a group can do? Can we arrange interviews with anyone? Can we be present next July somewhere - the POW perhaps (maybe not) and bring SJL to media attention in the UK again?
 
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  • #12
"One notable point is that AR, his married solicitor girlfriend, apparently remembered Cannan mentioning SJL to her before she disappeared. She reported these conversations to the police after she did so, and the police did nothing about it"

This is something I've not heard, or recall reading about. Interesting nugget of information (I'm dying to know the source, @WestLondoner). 😉I've often wondered if the relationship with AR was going on while JC was still in the Scrubs. If this is the case, and JC was able to (presumably) travel to Bristol to meet with her whilst supposedly under curfew, it perhaps points to the supervision at the Scrubs perhaps being pretty liberal. It also lends some credibility to the Bristol Businessman theory (I'd discounted that on the basis that he did not move to Bristol until some time after his release, according to most sources).

Seems as though he could well have had quite a bit of freedom to cruise local bars and I've always thought he may well have travelled to Fulham in search of women, and may well have come across SJL there.
 
  • #13
Thankyou very much for your detailed post Westlondoner . Can you explain to me the concept of winning instructions ? (I have googled it tonight ).
In the UK then and now, when you sell a property via an estate agent you typically get a few around to look at it and then you appoint one to be the seller. This is called "instructing" them, i.e. you are hiring them in return for a percentage of the selling price. Whoever wins the instruction for the agency has essentially ensured the agency will get a commission. So they get a piece of the action, as does whichever agent actually brings in the buyer who eventually buys. There were thus two ways an agent could make money off a sale, and of course they also got a lick of the spoon if buyers used their recommended mortgage provider or solicitors.

In the late 80s to late 90s a typical agent fee was 2%, with the person who got the agency instructed taking 15% of that (so 0.3% of the final price). The actual negotiator whose buyer eventually proceeded with the purchase also got 15% - and this could be same employee in each case. So if you got the vendor to sign up and you then found the buyer, you got 30% of 2% of the selling price. The rest of the fee went to pay the agency's overheads.

37SR was on at about £140,000, I think. SJL's commission on selling that would probably have been £420. If she sold a property like that per week, then over a year, she'd earn about £20,000 in commission on top of her basic; say £26 - £30,000 in total. The UK average wage was then about £8,000, so this would be like earning £100,000 a year today. Quite good for someone with a handful of O-Levels, no A-Levels and no degree.

These numbers could be off, or different between agencies, but probably not by all that much. Commission structures have changed since mainly because prices have got so high.

My mate who was an EA in 1990 reported back then that there was fierce competition within the agency - if there were three buyers, the negotiators would argue with the manager for theirs to be the one s/he recommended the seller go with, so they'd get the commission. They would ruthlessly gazump each other, bringing in a higher-paying buyer after the seller had agreed on a price, so as to poach the sale - which would cost their colleague one desk along their commission. This is the type of polite row DV describes as occurring on the Monday morning.
 
  • #14
"One notable point is that AR, his married solicitor girlfriend, apparently remembered Cannan mentioning SJL to her before she disappeared. She reported these conversations to the police after she did so, and the police did nothing about it"

This is something I've not heard, or recall reading about. Interesting nugget of information (I'm dying to know the source, @WestLondoner).
I think it was in the press at the time of the SB murder. The SJL inquiry received a large number of denunciations by women of their husbands as being Kipper, and AS notes they concluded that a remarkable number of women must really dislike their husband. AR apparently reported Cannan to the inquiry as a person they should be interested in, knowing he was a recently-released rapist. They did nothing, and perhaps the police just filed this with all the other reports from spiteful spouses.
 
  • #15
I think it was in the press at the time of the SB murder. The SJL inquiry received a large number of denunciations by women of their husbands as being Kipper, and AS notes they concluded that a remarkable number of women must really dislike their husband. AR apparently reported Cannan to the inquiry as a person they should be interested in, knowing he was a recently-released rapist. They did nothing, and perhaps the police just filed this with all the other reports from spiteful spouses.
Thank you!
 
  • #16
FWIW I think that the Wardo entry does not mean alot.

I am going through the earlier threads and to quote West Londoner Dec28 2021. Thanks WL.

See below.

The fact that SJL spoke to people about $3k commission (alot of $ in 1986) speaks to some other income source absolutely. WL has posted about this in Thread 2.
It is food for thought. The husband (who is only mentioned once in AS as TSS and I cannot find any reference to online nor PSS ) was apparently involved in property development.
The fact that the wife PSS showed up at ES avenue in a dramatic fashion saying they were going to have lunch on Monday 28th and she felt so bad about not being able to make it - I mean really? (according to AS). Now I think about that it seems a bit suss. but JMO.



According to AS, SJL was at one point supposed to be going into business with a friend and her husband, but she lost interest, perhaps because she envisaged making better money as an estate agent. Money had been spent on the intended venture and SJL then started avoiding this couple. At the same time she reported to her uncle that she being hassled by someone. Just after she disappeared, 8 days after in fact, the husband was declared bankrupt.

My conjecture is that on 28 July, this man is right on the edge and has blown money on something which now can't proceed, thanks to SJL. She's been avoiding him and his wife, so he tricks her into going somewhere he can confront her and demand off her the money she's made him waste.

There is evidence for the venture and someone hassling her. There is evidence from the police that she was remarkably successful at handling money to the point where they even wondered if she might be on the game. The conversation she had with someone on the Saturday, where she said she was expecting a £3,000 "commission", points to some other income stream. If she never went to Shorrolds, as seems likely, then whatever happened must have happened at the only other place she had a need to be headed for.

The BW sighting is challenging to fit into any timeline because it means SJL's car was seen in two places at once: in Stevenage Road and in the Fulham Palace Road, at 2.45. Either one sighting is wrong or both are. If BW is correct I can't think of any other course of events that fits.

The last photo of SJL was taken on Saturday, which was the day she had her hair highlighted. In it she is not especially blonde.
i agree. PSS was one of SL close friends, yet she has never appeared on any docu about the case. i have never even seen her do any interviews in the press. no on camera or print interviews, which does seem really odd. i get the impression they had a falling out. maybe it was business related.
 
  • #17
Maybe it was just too close to home for her, or perhaps the police asked her after interview not to comment, or maybe she was asked by the Lamplugh foundation not to comment.

By the time she was in the public eye, PS was working in an unusual and unbritish occupation. Can you imagine the tabloid headlines if she had made an appeal for Suzy?
 
  • #18
I think it was in the press at the time of the SB murder. The SJL inquiry received a large number of denunciations by women of their husbands as being Kipper, and AS notes they concluded that a remarkable number of women must really dislike their husband. AR apparently reported Cannan to the inquiry as a person they should be interested in, knowing he was a recently-released rapist. They did nothing, and perhaps the police just filed this with all the other reports from spiteful spouses.
Wow - this is very interesting information. Is AR still in practice today?
 
  • #19
Maybe it was just too close to home for her, or perhaps the police asked her after interview not to comment, or maybe she was asked by the Lamplugh foundation not to comment.

By the time she was in the public eye, PS was working in an unusual and unbritish occupation. Can you imagine the tabloid headlines if she had made an appeal for Suzy?
Have I read somewhere that she was a sex therapist or something like that? Yes completely understand- they would have had a field day!

see excerpt below from the following article - how I would love to read that news of the world piece today!
Susannah Clapp · Ventures

Andrew Stephen’s book has added to this celebrity. So have the newspaper stories about his story. For three long weeks the Observer carried huge chunks of this tiny book. Their estimate of the story which was most likely to attract readers was the same as that of the News of the World, who shortly before Andrew Stephen’s book was published put a picture of Susannah Lamplugh on the cover of its colour-supplement. This showed her sitting on a bunk smoking, in a little silky garment. Alongside large amounts of tanned thigh was the legend: ‘REVEALED! SUZY LAMPLUGH’S SECRET LOVER.’ Inside, a gruellingly banal article described a (non-secret) affair with a hairdresser on the QE2. ‘Right from the start there was something between them, Jon remembers. “When I first saw Suzy I thought, ‘Wow, who is she?’ ” ’ Other papers, excited by the news that the Lamplugh parents had turned against the book, expressed their excitement in ways peculiar to themselves. The People said Stephen credited Susannah with fifty lovers: he doesn’t. The Times said the Lamplugh family had left home while the book was being publicised and published: they were back for publication date. The Guardian denounced the ‘public voyeurism that provokes publication’ of such an ‘archetypal ghoul’s story’ – though it was the Lamplughs, not a ravening mob, who had approached the publishers with the idea for this book, and the publishers were free to say no. Andrew Stephen had one defender in Anita Brookner – but the effectiveness of her attack on his attackers was diminished by its appearing in the Observer while that paper was ending its serialisation of the book. He also mounted his own defence, or attack.
 
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  • #20

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