UK UK - Suzy Lamplugh, 25, Fulham, 28 July 1986 #8

[lee sumner]

Yes, AS is vague here. I think he says MG checked "inside and out" but how could he have checked inside, if sjl had taken the only key?

yes, that is what it says in AS book.

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

Yes, AS is vague here. I think he says MG checked "inside and out" but how could he have checked inside, if sjl had taken the only key?

That’s when DV suggests why/when someone in office realises key ‘mistake’ (only ever one set) but keeps head down. DV says he thinks he knows who this was but would be poor form to name, so doesn’t The feeling was SL was definitely outside so…and the ball was rolling & gaining speed.

Re: AS he’s an excellent journalist but only as good as his sources.

 

[Konstantin]

Yes, AS is vague here. I think he says MG checked "inside and out" but how could he have checked inside, if sjl had taken the only key?

I think it's really tempting to read too much into AS where he's vague. There was either a simple explanation eg there was more then one set of keys and memory just faded over the decades as you'd expect tbh or he looked through the letterbox and AS didn't capture the details properly, because he didn't think they were important enough, or a neighbour has a key for emergencies (which is what I'd do if I were the owner and going away for a bit).

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

On the cinema & AM/WJ a minor point on AM, (who may have had lodgers too I wondered?) she had a payphone & she said/WJ bank trip was to cash coins in. WJ says about kids’ piggy banks re: coins (?).

I guess both poss true but major reason for bank trip, & reason it took time, was due to AM’s payphone coins in 86 re: AS

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

I think it's really tempting to read too much into AS where he's vague. There was either a simple explanation eg there was more then one set of keys and memory just faded over the decades as you'd expect tbh or he looked through the letterbox and AS didn't capture the details properly, because he didn't think they were important enough, or a neighbour has a key for emergencies (which is what I'd do if I were the owner and going away for a bit).

Totally valid & true but I do think DV may well be right on one set of keys in all this. He dug deep here - vendor overseas. The police apparently eventually accepted DV’s key narrative. It’s embarrassing & difficult if so but if SL there outside as a rendezvous perhaps not that relevant. It points to a private off Sturgis books apt which other evidence also supports well.

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

On Doneraile sighting, which again is potentially such a development (!)

Could it be after lunch etc ‘Kipper’ asked SL to make a pitstop at dealers & if JC he picked up a ‘package’ for hostel mates (?) She saw through any excuse perhaps (?) Or similar, there are those that distribute for £.

Given her active, live deal had ‘strings attached’ & possibility of using her ‘address’ was this enough to make her finally see a scam, pull out & threaten police too?

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

That contradicts the initial Crimewatch reconstruction which stated that she returned at 3.30pm and her husband drove into the garage at 5.15

That's the problem with this case, no-one seems to have a definite timeline.

4:10 onwards

Yes, exactly.

Pinnochio was 1 hr 27 mins long, if makes any odds.

 

[Kasparthecat1]

I think it's really tempting to read too much into AS where he's vague. There was either a simple explanation eg there was more then one set of keys and memory just faded over the decades as you'd expect tbh or he looked through the letterbox and AS didn't capture the details properly, because he didn't think they were important enough, or a neighbour has a key for emergencies (which is what I'd do if I were the owner and going away for a bit).

Yeah there's likely more than one key - with a neighbour, a cleaner, or a relative. Only one at the office, which JMP Sjl has. MG assumes same, and shouts through letterbox and windows, possibly checking round the back too. AS accepts this as sufficient to mean "inside and out". Carter in the Crimewatch programme in (I think?) October brandishes a key on its yellow Sturgis telling us that a key just like it has gone missing along with Sjl. JMO obviously, but had that key remained at Sturgis someone would have mentioned it before Crimewatch aired. And JMO again but the door to 37 SR was kicked in or shoved in by LE, just like the door to Sjl's flat was. DV suggests that 37SR can't have been accessed without a key, supporting his own narrative of what may have happened that day. So there's some doubt.

 

[Kasparthecat1]

Totally valid & true but I do think DV may well be right on one set of keys in all this. He dug deep here - vendor overseas. The police apparently eventually accepted DV’s key narrative. It’s embarrassing & difficult if so but if SL there outside as a rendezvous perhaps not that relevant. It points to a private off Sturgis books apt which other evidence also supports well.

Yeah there's some validity in both accounts. I think it's entirely possible that 37SR was meant as a point of rendevous. Buuut....if SJL was going there as part of some off-piste ruse, JMO of course but I think she would have taken the key with her to back herself up.

 

[kes1972]

There were a few options...

25th July 1986...

View attachment 654599

Hammersmith or Kensington would seem the most likely.

But there's also Ealing, Harrow, Notting Hill, and Richmond.

Note that the large 5 screen cinema on the Fulham Road, wasn't showing Pinocchio!

Also note that Brentford Cinema is listed after Richmond Odeon, but they weren't showing Pinocchio either, so I edited the post to highlight ALL the local cinemas who were actually showing the movie.

Fascinating.

Well, (speculatively) if that property turned out to be 123 Stevenage Road, then could this "argument" have been the catalyst for why SL's Buyer; Mr Kipper, ended up killing her? (allegedly)

And why she then felt compelled to then drive him around Fulham to search for another property?

Had the killer Mr Kipper then deliberately chose 123 Stevenage Road as the location to then go and dump his victim's car outside of?

As a threatening warning to MG and NH, for being effectively undercut by them on the sale of a property that Mr Kipper wanted.

Could that explain why MG appears to be hiding something when he speaks on camera, and why he was subsequently eager to move on by employing another member of staff to replace SL and seemingly dumbing down the fact that an employee of his had almost certainly just been murdered?

My instinct tells me that MG is more aware of some of the circumstances surrounding SL's disappearance that he ever let on.


Call it a hunch.

Totally agree on that, another hunch is there could have been a feeling sl was up to something so in dealing with her flat sale they could find proof of that moo

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

Yeah there's some validity in both accounts. I think it's entirely possible that 37SR was meant as a point of rendevous. Buuut....if SJL was going there as part of some off-piste ruse, JMO of course but I think she would have taken the key with her to back herself up.

That would be logical, it’s poss she intended to & last rushed call meant she forgot.

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

Yeah there's likely more than one key - with a neighbour, a cleaner, or a relative. Only one at the office, which JMP Sjl has. MG assumes same, and shouts through letterbox and windows, possibly checking round the back too. AS accepts this as sufficient to mean "inside and out". Carter in the Crimewatch programme in (I think?) October brandishes a key on its yellow Sturgis telling us that a key just like it has gone missing along with Sjl. JMO obviously, but had that key remained at Sturgis someone would have mentioned it before Crimewatch aired. And JMO again but the door to 37 SR was kicked in or shoved in by LE, just like the door to Sjl's flat was. DV suggests that 37SR can't have been accessed without a key, supporting his own narrative of what may have happened that day. So there's some doubt.

DV does quite the investigation on keys as we know & argues this point well IMO. He states 37 not broken into. I can see how all assumed two sets & how things snowballed to that end. No one can say for certain but even the police seem to be swayed in end on his point. It would support no fingerprints inside etc too.

 

[kes1972]

Yeah there's some validity in both accounts. I think it's entirely possible that 37SR was meant as a point of rendevous. Buuut....if SJL was going there as part of some off-piste ruse, JMO of course but I think she would have taken the key with her to back herself up.

Very odd to think the police did not get the finer detail of the comings and goings of that day from anyone, every detail seems open ended no wonder this was never solved.

 

[Rookie D]

Very odd to think the police did not get the finer detail of the comings and goings of that day from anyone, every detail seems open ended no wonder this was never solved.

Another example perhaps of incompetent policing standards.

Primary reason for a murder case going cold... Lack of evidence.
Secondary reason for a murder case going cold... A botched job of initial investigation/poor decision making.

The first 72 hours of any murder investigation are absolutely critical, and many cases from the 70's, 80's and 90's were prone to inept investigative decisions made by senior detectives from the offset.

 

[kes1972]

Another example perhaps of incompetent policing standards.

Primary reason for a murder case going cold... Lack of evidence.
Secondary reason for a murder case going cold... A botched job of initial investigation/poor decision making.

The first 72 hours of any murder investigation are absolutely critical, and many cases from the 70's, 80's and 90's were prone to inept investigative decisions made by senior detectives from the offset.

Such an injustice for sl and family. To think those involved still walk among us.

 

[WestLondoner]

a neighbour has a key for emergencies (which is what I'd do if I were the owner and going away for a bit)

You wouldn't if you had my neighbours

the door to 37 SR was kicked in or shoved in by LE, just like the door to Sjl's flat was.

Not according to DV. He reckons the door to 37SR shows no sign of having been kicked in:

‘I’m guessing by the direction of the brief shadows on the cars here’ – I pointed at the photo on my left ... – ‘that this one was taken earlier in the day, before noon. So there was a crime scene at Shorrolds Road at some point on Tuesday morning?’
‘There was.’ Caroline nodded...
‘Okay. So the shadows here would indicate to me this second photo has been taken later in the day, perhaps mid-afternoon. Both pictures are confirmation they forensicated Shorrolds Road on Tuesday, hence the police officers controlling entry to the scene through the front door…’ I mused.
‘Yes,’ Caroline agreed.
‘How did they get into that address on Tuesday morning?’ I asked, picking up one of the photos and looking closely at the open door.
She frowned at me. ‘What do you mean?’
‘How did the police get the front door open – did they break in?’ Caroline nodded. ‘I suppose they must have done. Suzy had the key to do the viewing…’
‘Which is why Mark Gurdon only knocked at the door of 37 Shorrolds Road on the Monday night looking for Suzy and didn’t go in?’ Caroline nodded again. ‘So who broke into the house then?’ I asked. ‘I can’t find any record of it.’...
‘Do we know how many locks were on that front door?’ I asked, wondering how much noise and damage it had taken to get in.
‘How would we know that?’
‘Have we got any other photos of it? Or maybe we have a description of the keys Suzy had with her to do the viewing – that would indicate the number of locks perhaps?’
‘There were some photos and video taken of the door a week later, during the police’s one-week anniversary reconstruction… hang on.’ Caroline ... pulled out a black-and-white photo of the two police officers who’d played ‘Mr Kipper’ and Suzy. They were standing outside the closed front door of 37 Shorrolds Road. ‘That was taken on Monday, 4 August 1986,’ she said, passing the photograph to me.
...
‘That front door isn’t damaged, six days after the police have forensicated the inside of the address. They didn’t break in through the door.’
‘What about the back?’
‘That involves scaling high walls, clambering over fences and cutting through undergrowth. We never do it.’
‘Maybe that’s a spare key she has there?’ she said, pointing at the key in the Suzy lookalike’s hand in the photo.
‘Why would the estate agent need more than one set?’
‘That photo was taken at a police reconstruction seven days later though…’
‘We know the police had that key to 37 Shorrolds Road on Tuesday morning when the place was forensicated. The police didn’t break in; there’s no damage to the door – so where did the police get that key from by Tuesday morning?’
‘I see your point.’
‘And we know Mark Gurdon didn’t have a spare key. He didn’t go inside to look for Suzy because he says he assumed Suzy had the key. Mick Jones from Fulham CID doesn’t go to 37 Shorrolds Road that night because he assumed that Mark Gurdon had looked inside. Which we know he didn’t. Nobody goes inside the house for sale.’
‘But by Tuesday morning the police somehow have a key?’ Caroline asked rhetorically.
‘By Tuesday morning, within hours, the police are using a key to get in and out of 37 Shorrolds Road, so that fingerprinting can be done on that house, yes,’ I agreed.
‘Someone at the estate agent’s found the key in the branch and gave it to the police?’
‘That would be my guess…’
‘But that would mean Suzy didn’t take the key with her to do the viewing?’
I smiled. ‘It would. Why would you go and do a house viewing without the key?’
‘How could you do a house viewing without the key?’
I shook my head. ‘You couldn’t…’

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

@WestLondoner thank you for sharing the above in full on the keys for 37 Shorrolds.

Sturgis also put any duplicate keys on the same ring, as DV flags. Although this sounds counter intuitive I can confirm it happened.

I think the odds are very good DV is right re: one set, astonishing as this sounds in retrospect, and it was the biggest breakthrough from his case review.

 

[Officer Dibble]

Very odd to think the police did not get the finer detail of the comings and goings of that day from anyone, every detail seems open ended no wonder this was never solved.

Agree. JMO MOO

 

[kes1972]

competition is normal in a EA office, so hindle might have taken lamplugh commision from under her. this info coming from DV means it should be taken with a pinch of salt. SL shared her cigs with hindle during there cigarette break. that does not sound like they had a massive argument.

Shared her cigarettes according to them.

 

[kes1972]

@WestLondoner thank you for sharing the above in full on the keys for 37 Shorrolds.

Sturgis also put any duplicate keys on the same ring, as DV flags. Although this sounds counter intuitive I can confirm it happened.

I think the odds are very good DV is right re: one set, astonishing as this sounds in retrospect, and it was the biggest breakthrough from his case review.

So we know they had the keys to 37, why then did mg not take them with him to check 37