• #2,581
Well that is strange. So no mention of sl lost items in any newsreel or newspapers or on crimewatch? Mh is a strange one to say he had no clue, i cannot believe him for a second.
I can remember it all happening pretty well, and my memory isn't great these days, particularly relating to events 40 years ago. I can't remember the lost items being discussed in any of the contemporaneous Crimewatches, or any documentary since, really. I can only remember the Kipper-at-37 SR narrative, and the car-at-123 SR narrative, together with hat on the shelf, and the-seat-was-pushed-right-back ergo it wasn't Sjl driving it at that point narrative. I can't remember the POW getting a mention, even.

AL talks of the items being lost in one doc, but any possible significance of this does not seem to have gained much, if any traction at the time. Perhaps I've missed something; I've only become aware of the lost items on reading DV (then AS) recently. AS was published in 1988 (?) but if memory serves he doesn't spend too much time on this specifically. Perhaps someone else can recall it better.
 
  • #2,582
I think DV creates juuuuust enough intrigue here to support his narrative, if one chooses to believe it.

He wrote the book like a crime novel about an ex cop turned private sleuth who solves a decades' old case that the Met bungled.
 
  • #2,583
I can remember it all happening pretty well, and my memory isn't great these days, particularly relating to events 40 years ago. I can't remember the lost items being discussed in any of the contemporaneous Crimewatches, or any documentary since, really. I can only remember the Kipper-at-37 SR narrative, and the car-at-123 SR narrative, together with hat on the shelf, and the-seat-was-pushed-right-back ergo it wasn't Sjl driving it at that point narrative. I can't remember the POW getting a mention, even.

AL talks of the items being lost in one doc, but any possible significance of this does not seem to have gained much, if any traction at the time. Perhaps I've missed something; I've only become aware of the lost items on reading DV (then AS) recently. AS was published in 1988 (?) but if memory serves he doesn't spend too much time on this specifically. Perhaps someone else can recall it better.

I'm going to play devil's advocate and be really cynical here about DV - just to put a particular viewpoint across, I am not saying this is what I completely believe or that I am unwilling to have my mind changed. I think he scoured AS (whose book he completely fails to mention - possibly because he didn't want curious eyes reading it and getting a different perspective) and media for an angle that he could use to put forward an alternative explanation for the case and thus "solve" it without really solving it.

I think he missed stuff out - his report of his interview or meeting with AL is so very odd to me that it does feel like he didn't tell the whole story. He makes AL out to be weird for his "outburst" but I think we have missing context here. AL agreed to meet him in the first place, which is quite something but then very quickly gets cross with DV and storms out.

His descriptions of "CV" are designed to make you, the reader, think he is seedy and dodgy.

His description of him tracking down the Irish-sounding witness is really laughable to me - he fairly obviously just looked him up on 192.com with a paid subscription that will give you a last address and then showed up on the doorstep - and blamed the woman who answered for being cagey. There is no way to tell if that person in the record he found is the same man mentioned as a witness by AS.

He does pull out some new and interesting information although how relevant that all is - we don't know. And memories fade so much after such a long time that I am not convinced that any of it is really worth all that much.
 
  • #2,584
I think DV creates juuuuust enough intrigue here to support his narrative, if one chooses to believe it.
Dv’s biggest mistake was not including pub rear garden ,embankment and disused viaduct in his search.
 
  • #2,585
I can only remember the Kipper-at-37 SR narrative, and the car-at-123 SR narrative, together with hat on the shelf, and the-seat-was-pushed-right-back ergo it wasn't Sjl driving it at that point narrative. I can't remember the POW getting a mention, even.
Yes, the standard documentary then moves straight to the ex-police talking heads and Cannan. I've never seen a single one where the documentary maker challenges the police on this, much less comes up with anything else.
an angle that he could use to put forward an alternative explanation for the case and thus "solve" it without really solving it.
That does seem possible unless he really does have other better information. He correctly notes that the PoW was the only location SJL was known to be headed to that was never searched, because someone there told him she never turned up. That was a remarkable blunder - big enough to proceed from perhaps.
He does pull out some new and interesting information
He does - the keys issue and the improbability of WJ as a witness. He also fails to acknowledge a lot though - PSS/TS and BW notably.
 
  • #2,586
I read upthread that sl was interested in business that included beauty and came across something ts who was with pss at that time had a close friend ac who was involved in that type of business, this just came totally out of the blue while checking out ts.
 
  • #2,587
I read upthread that sl was interested in business that included beauty and came across something ts who was with pss at that time had a close friend ac who was involved in that type of business, this just came totally out of the blue while checking out ts.
Is anyone on here able to get any depth on ac, name can be supplied.
 
  • #2,588
Just a thought
Maybe the earlier entry crossed out was sl thinking of picking up her pocket diary, but maybe decided a later pickup at lunchtime would work better for her??
 
  • #2,589
Dv’s biggest mistake was not including pub rear garden ,embankment and disused viaduct in his search.
You could throw in that seedy, old place which was one of John Bindon's old hangouts for good measure - the Ranelagh Yacht Club under Putney Bridge.
 
  • #2,590
The Lamplugh case is one of those cases that really should and could have been solved, but it just feels like the initial investigation was hampered by poor choices made by the police.
We also have contrasting eye witness reports; which are notoriously unreliable anyway.

The police went with JC, then ruled it out, but then went back with JC again.

The fact remains that the only way that this case will ever be solved, is if SL's body was ever found.

That seems very unlikely after all this time.

There's also no way that it could ever be proven that JC killed SL, unless of course there was any direct evidence found with her remains; but again that's unlikely.

It is rather frustrating that all of the time and effort that has been spent on this case, with thousands of people looking at it, that we aren't any closer to solving it now, than the police were back then.

Alas, it seems it will remain one of the UK's most infamous unsolved cold cases.

Depressing really.


"Have a good day y'all!" (as our wonderful American cousins would say)
 
  • #2,591
Please remind me of your theory?
i believe SL was lured into a trap. mr kipper arranged the 12.45PM APT at 37SR. he then told SL as well as being a buyer of a property he is also selling a property. he then asked SL would she do a valuation on the property he is selling, and SL says OK. it was not strange going off with a client to do a valuation, which obviously would lead to a commision for suzy if she closes the deal. she then goes off with MR K, and is never seen again. i believe leegood thinks the same.
 
  • #2,592
i believe SL was lured into a trap. mr kipper arranged the 12.45PM APT at 37SR. he then told SL as well as being a buyer of a property he is also selling a property. he then asked SL would she do a valuation on the property he is selling, and SL says OK. it was not strange going off with a client to do a valuation, which obviously would lead to a commision for suzy if she closes the deal. she then goes off with MR K, and is never seen again. i believe leegood thinks the same.
Occams razor is usually the answer, the puzzle as we all know is who was the elusive Kipper.
 
  • #2,593
How do you know this?

KH is CV. CV + KF had been previously trained by MH at the PoW and returned to cover for him while he was on holiday. KH claims to be the person who found the lost items and said this was on Sunday. AFAIK the only source for this being on Friday is AL, who also however says he and SJL never went there. Sunday makes more sense if CV and KF were covering from the Monday.

That was how I read it too. Under a pub is a terrible hiding place; only the manager at the time she disappeared could have done that (or connived at letting someone else do it).


That's actually quite a good shout in that it shows nobody has disturbed that space since then. However, he rather undermines this by later mentioning that somebody had in fact disturbed that space. About 8 years later, the floor was lowered. I can't imagine how you take up floorboards, put in supporting joists or whatever lower down, then put the floorboards back without noticing a dead body where the floor had been.

The claim that KH handed the plod a phone number when they arrived in 1986 arose in 1987, when he was re-interviewed. The plods concerned claimed they had no recollection of his doing so. Either they were incompetent, or he misremembered. Either seems equally plausible.

The anomalies in KH's words and actions do a lot of heavy lifting in DV's account. KH may have been alone in the pub at lunchtime, if the handover stocktake prevented normal opening, but this doesn't get bottomed out. The pub could have been open and with the usual punters and staff about. If he actually was alone there, then the only source that SJL never turned up there was him. The decision not to search based on that looks negligent. It was one of five places she was known - or plausibly likely - to have headed, the others being home, her parents' house, 123SR and 37SR, all of which were searched. If she'd come to harm there obviously he'd say she never showed. It's potty to search 123SR but not the pub.

Either KH mentioned these phone calls in 1986 or he didn't. If he did, one wonders where the followup went - I'm not aware of any having been done (Barley and Dickie are both very confused on this, thinking the calls were made to the office). If he did not, then one wonders why he mentioned them first only a year later.

The only reason I can think of is that if he had something to hide - a huge 'if', on what we know - then in 1986, it made sense to say she was due at 6pm and never showed. A year later, he's seen the photos of the diary page with a 6pm appointment proving she cannot ever have intended to go to the PoW at 6. So the story changes to suggest she was expected - and was inquired after - sooner, or at no special time.

The other oddity about KH is that according to MH, it was only a year later that he found out the missing items that turned up belonged to Britain's most famous missing person. The police turned up at the PoW in 1987 to reinterview the landlord and that's when he discovered they previously interviewed the relief landlord. So in 1986 MH gets back from holiday, asks KH if anything happened and KH evidently said Nah, quiet mostly. Eh?!
6PM apt did not clash with her collecting lost items, as she would obviously go to the POW on the way home from work. 6PM, waldermar viewing would have been the last viewing, then SL has finished for the day. between 6/7PM is when she calls to the POW to pick up lost items on the way home from work. the point being the 6PM pick up time did not mean 6PM exact, but sometime between 6/7PM. this is my take on the 6PM arrangement.
 
  • #2,594
Occams razor is usually the answer, the puzzle as we all know is who was the elusive Kipper.
my theory is occams razor. mr kipper took SL to a location where she was held captive, but SL thought she was going to do a valuation.
 
  • #2,595
I think DV creates juuuuust enough intrigue here to support his narrative, if one chooses to believe it.
no street smart detective would ever believe DV theory. its the opposite to occams principle way of thinking.
 
  • #2,596
i believe SL was lured into a trap. mr kipper arranged the 12.45PM APT at 37SR. he then told SL as well as being a buyer of a property he is also selling a property. he then asked SL would she do a valuation on the property he is selling, and SL says OK. it was not strange going off with a client to do a valuation, which obviously would lead to a commision for suzy if she closes the deal. she then goes off with MR K, and is never seen again. i believe leegood thinks the same.
It was said there was an argument at 37sr, i am not sure if that is true and factual but if so ??
 
  • #2,597
no street smart detective would ever believe DV theory. its the opposite to occams principle way of thinking.
I was looking at sl entry in the desk diary and it looks like the address was an afterthought or added?? The way sl entered other things were different to that entry jmo
 
  • #2,598
my theory is occams razor. mr kipper took SL to a location where she was held captive, but SL thought she was going to do a valuation.

Or that Mr Kipper was an estate agent who she was familiar with from another branch, and she was looking to buy i.e. he was the seller.

I'll scratch your back, if you scratch mine sceneario.


That would then make Mr Kipper a dodgy estate agent
 
  • #2,599
I was looking at sl entry in the desk diary and it looks like the address was an afterthought or added?? The way sl entered other things were different to that entry jmo
She writes "O/S" for 37SR - outside - iirc for the later viewing she just gives the address and name of the viewer. Is this significant? Perhaps Kipper really did only want to see outside (although JMO I can't really see why). It lends some weight to the notion that she may not have taken the key as not intending to go inside.
 
  • #2,600
It was said there was an argument at 37sr, i am not sure if that is true and factual but if so ??
argument between who. suzy and mr kipper. never heard this before.
 

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