UK UK - Suzy Lamplugh, 25, Fulham, 28 July 1986

[Konstantin]

I have always believed the description given of the man that HR saw is MG.

Good looking, smartly dressed.

Does anybody else think the same or is it just me?

i had thought that too until I read the AS book — AS reported that MG actually met and spoke to HR when he physically went to 37SR looking for SJL. HR gave MG the description of the male he said he saw earlier that same day. So unless he completely made up his sighting when he talked to MG or his mind got muddled and he described someone looking like MG who must have been standing in front of him, or when he did the artists impression the memory of MG kind of pushed out the memory of who he thought he saw earlier then it can’t he thar he was just remembering MG.

 

[Konstantin]

I have always believed the description given of the man that HR saw is MG.

Good looking, smartly dressed.

Does anybody else think the same or is it just me?

i had thought that too until I read the AS book — AS reported that MG actually met and spoke to HR when he physically went to 37SR looking for SJL. HR gave MG the description of the male he said he saw earlier that same day. So unless he completely made up his sighting when he talked to MG or his mind got muddled and he described someone looking like MG who must have been standing in front of him, or when he did the artists impression the memory of MG kind of pushed out the memory of who he thought he saw earlier then it can’t he thar he was just remembering MG.

 

[Terryb808]

Witness Sightings

Not in any particular order

Over the years I’ve spend looking at the Suzy Lamplugh disappearance a number of witness statements have puzzled me and other seem to confirm things that just don’t make sence.

Shorrolds Road
It’s looking increasingly likely that Suzy never went to Shorrolds Road, so why are there so many witnesses that say she did?

HR: While he was at first looking like a key witness, his ever developing account of who and what he saw that Monday lunchtime tends to make him look like an attention seeker. However, its impossible to get away from the fact that he saw two people, one male & one female at about 12.50pm on Monday 28th July. So who were they if not Suzy & Mr Kipper?

ND: He was an unemployed barman / cellar man returning from collecting his dole money and was meeting his wife at 1.30pm, so was sure about the time he said he saw Suzy & Mr Kipper outside 37 Shorrolds Road. His account fitted with HR, however, it also matched the police reconstruction perfectly, this makes it a little suspicious. Having said that, a couple were most likely outside 37 Shorrolds at around 12.50 / 1.00pm on Monday, could he be linked in someway to the PoW & CV?

NDoyle: An out of work Jeweller said he saw two people, one male & one female outside 37 Shorrolds Road, he could only say its was between midday & 4.00pm. While this is not ideal, by saying this I feel his account is accurate, one other thing he said was that the couple looked too wealthy to be interested in the property. This is important because in his profession he would have been able to determine wealth on sight.

JI: He also sighted a male & female couple outside 37 Shorrolds, his description of the male is interesting, saying that 26 to 32 years old, tall & slim, good looking and could have been a male model. He also pointed out that HR photo fit was inaccurate saying his hair was longer and face slimmer. I personally feel this description is the best of the bunch.

Two men & the old lady
An elderly lady out routinely and parking her car in Shorrolds Road spotted two men in a large dark coloured saloon parked in Shorrolds Road. She said that they were not talking, just looking straight ahead. What makes this interesting is why did they attract her attention? After all she was just going about her business as usual, yet these two stood out, why?

Other Places
A number of witnesses came forward with accounts in places other than Shorrolds Road.

Taxi Driver & The James Galway Man
You see this witness account in the reconstruction and its interesting because of the location (Stevenage Road) and the fact that the description could resemble a young CV (based on DV's description of CV today). DV makes no mention of this in his book? What is compelling is the rambling way he speaks to the taxi driver, the use of "a right ruck", he seems to be drawing attention to something that may or may not have actually happened. The taxi driver highlighted he was carrying a bag, could this be the man who abandoned Suzy's car?

Jogger & the LH Drive BMW
This witness is questionable because of the length of time that elapsed before he came forward, this is a very good reason for not believing in its validity, however, he outlines that he saw a women shouting / screaming in the back of a LH drive BMW, and that this happened as (if I have remembered this correctly) as he exited Bishops Park. He could have subconsciously remembered this after the press coverage around the Belgium Mr Kieper?

White Van Man & the Ford Fiesta
I read this while browsing the web, however, I've (unfortunately) lost the source, he basically says he had to swerve out of the way of a White Ford Fiesta being driven by a stunning blonde, with a male passenger by her side. IMO this can be linked to other events, but the date and time the witness said he saw this and also when he came forward are very important. I tend to think the White Van Man would certainly remember an event like this, one the stunning blonde and secondly, its not often a White Van Man is forced to hit the kerb by a relatively small Ford Fiesta.
If anyone can add times and dates to this it would be very interesting.

BW Cycling Sighting
She at first seems very sure about this, then as the interview progresses she becomes more unsure, at 2.45pm on the Monday afternoon if correct this sighting could fit a number of possible scenarios, however, it in no way fits in with DV's narrative. He's possible researched this and feels its not accurate and not relevant, or some might say doesn't fit his theory, so he ignored it. If the white van man sighting and timings fit, it could be that they both saw Suzy and the perpetrator that afternoon.

In Summary
Looks like there was definitely a couple at Shorrolds Road, if Suzy didn't go, who were they and what were they doing there? Were they linked in any way to the two men in the large dark coloured saloon? IMO the witness descriptions don't fit Suzy, the couple were clearly wealthy & affluent, Suzy in her daytime working attire would not be mistaken for an affluent female.
The James Galway man reported by the taxi driver never came forward, which if CV is not surprising, the driver took him away from Putney and dropped him at Macdonalds, which had a tube station close by and he could then have travelled to Putney, however, this is conjecture on my part.

Some food for thought, if anyone can fill in the gaps, please do.

 

[asyousay]

The question is why would this couple not come forward if it wasn’t suspicious?

this was literally news everywhere for a period of time so it makes no sense the 2 people involved wouldn’t of cleared this up imo

 

[Terryb808]

The question is why would this couple not come forward if it wasn’t suspicious?

this was literally news everywhere for a period of time so it makes no sense the 2 people involved wouldn’t of cleared this up imo

If it’s the couple that was going into business with SJL they may have not wanted the police looking into their business dealings. The Met looked at SJL’s financial affairs, but it seemed this business venture didn’t feature. This is one reason they may have not come forward.

 

[WiseOwl]

Witness Sightings

Not in any particular order

Over the years I’ve spend looking at the Suzy Lamplugh disappearance a number of witness statements have puzzled me and other seem to confirm things that just don’t make sence.

Shorrolds Road
It’s looking increasingly likely that Suzy never went to Shorrolds Road, so why are there so many witnesses that say she did?

HR: While he was at first looking like a key witness, his ever developing account of who and what he saw that Monday lunchtime tends to make him look like an attention seeker. However, its impossible to get away from the fact that he saw two people, one male & one female at about 12.50pm on Monday 28th July. So who were they if not Suzy & Mr Kipper?

ND: He was an unemployed barman / cellar man returning from collecting his dole money and was meeting his wife at 1.30pm, so was sure about the time he said he saw Suzy & Mr Kipper outside 37 Shorrolds Road. His account fitted with HR, however, it also matched the police reconstruction perfectly, this makes it a little suspicious. Having said that, a couple were most likely outside 37 Shorrolds at around 12.50 / 1.00pm on Monday, could he be linked in someway to the PoW & CV?

NDoyle: An out of work Jeweller said he saw two people, one male & one female outside 37 Shorrolds Road, he could only say its was between midday & 4.00pm. While this is not ideal, by saying this I feel his account is accurate, one other thing he said was that the couple looked too wealthy to be interested in the property. This is important because in his profession he would have been able to determine wealth on sight.

JI: He also sighted a male & female couple outside 37 Shorrolds, his description of the male is interesting, saying that 26 to 32 years old, tall & slim, good looking and could have been a male model. He also pointed out that HR photo fit was inaccurate saying his hair was longer and face slimmer. I personally feel this description is the best of the bunch.

Two men & the old lady
An elderly lady out routinely and parking her car in Shorrolds Road spotted two men in a large dark coloured saloon parked in Shorrolds Road. She said that they were not talking, just looking straight ahead. What makes this interesting is why did they attract her attention? After all she was just going about her business as usual, yet these two stood out, why?

Other Places
A number of witnesses came forward with accounts in places other than Shorrolds Road.

Taxi Driver & The James Galway Man
You see this witness account in the reconstruction and its interesting because of the location (Stevenage Road) and the fact that the description could resemble a young CV (based on DV's description of CV today). DV makes no mention of this in his book? What is compelling is the rambling way he speaks to the taxi driver, the use of "a right ruck", he seems to be drawing attention to something that may or may not have actually happened. The taxi driver highlighted he was carrying a bag, could this be the man who abandoned Suzy's car?

Jogger & the LH Drive BMW
This witness is questionable because of the length of time that elapsed before he came forward, this is a very good reason for not believing in its validity, however, he outlines that he saw a women shouting / screaming in the back of a LH drive BMW, and that this happened as (if I have remembered this correctly) as he exited Bishops Park. He could have subconsciously remembered this after the press coverage around the Belgium Mr Kieper?

White Van Man & the Ford Fiesta
I read this while browsing the web, however, I've (unfortunately) lost the source, he basically says he had to swerve out of the way of a White Ford Fiesta being driven by a stunning blonde, with a male passenger by her side. IMO this can be linked to other events, but the date and time the witness said he saw this and also when he came forward are very important. I tend to think the White Van Man would certainly remember an event like this, one the stunning blonde and secondly, its not often a White Van Man is forced to hit the kerb by a relatively small Ford Fiesta.
If anyone can add times and dates to this it would be very interesting.

BW Cycling Sighting
She at first seems very sure about this, then as the interview progresses she becomes more unsure, at 2.45pm on the Monday afternoon if correct this sighting could fit a number of possible scenarios, however, it in no way fits in with DV's narrative. He's possible researched this and feels its not accurate and not relevant, or some might say doesn't fit his theory, so he ignored it. If the white van man sighting and timings fit, it could be that they both saw Suzy and the perpetrator that afternoon.

In Summary
Looks like there was definitely a couple at Shorrolds Road, if Suzy didn't go, who were they and what were they doing there? Were they linked in any way to the two men in the large dark coloured saloon? IMO the witness descriptions don't fit Suzy, the couple were clearly wealthy & affluent, Suzy in her daytime working attire would not be mistaken for an affluent female.
The James Galway man reported by the taxi driver never came forward, which if CV is not surprising, the driver took him away from Putney and dropped him at Macdonalds, which had a tube station close by and he could then have travelled to Putney, however, this is conjecture on my part.

Some food for thought, if anyone can fill in the gaps, please do.

While the witnesses at Shorrolds Road don't always come across as reliable, the one thing they have in common (well 3 of them anyway) is the time they say they saw the couple, around 12.50 - 1.00. We know Suzy left the office around 12.40 so she would be at Shorrolds Road around 12.50, so the timing does fit.

I think that HR's original sighting may well be true, but then when he started to get more attention from the media he began to exaggerate his story, so much so that in the end you would tend to dismiss him as a credible witness.

So we have three scenarios:

1. It was Suzy and a mystery man.

2. It was another couple.

3. There was nobody outside the property, the witnesses were all mistaken.

 

[asyousay]

Why would Suzy of went to SR without keys?

 

[sian morris]

Thank you it’s so hard to remember who is who with some many initials.


Is this where the reported £3000 was coming from?

No idea.

 

[sian morris]

Never seen any photos the Belgium diamond dealer, so don’t know if he’s instantly noticeable?

A poster recently found SL press stuff on ebay. There's a picture of him there.

 

[WiseOwl]

A poster recently found SL press stuff on ebay. There's a picture of him there.

That was me - which one is he? AFAIK all the pictures on the montage are either of Suzy on her own or with friends or family.

 

[sian morris]

That was me - which one is he? AFAIK all the pictures on the montage are either of Suzy on her own or with friends or family.

Have you still got that ebay link? Searched on ebay but nothing.

 

[WiseOwl]

Have you still got that ebay link? Searched on ebay but nothing.

Here it is:

1986 PHOTOGRAPHS SUZY LAMPLUGH YEAR OLD ESTATE AGENT UN... - Vintage Photography | eBay

 

[Konstantin]

Here it is:

1986 PHOTOGRAPHS SUZY LAMPLUGH YEAR OLD ESTATE AGENT UN... - Vintage Photography | eBay

Does anyone know who the men are in the top middle photo and the top right photo?

 

[Konstantin]

I think that HR's original sighting may well be true, but then when he started to get more attention from the media he began to exaggerate his story, so much so that in the end you would tend to dismiss him as a credible witness.

Yes.

Especially when you consider that HR's story evolved so fast, within just a couple of hours of his first talk with MG when he remembered seeing the couple he had then gone on to recall that the woman was bundled into a car.

Let's just presume for a moment this was true though.

Let's assume that SJL went to 37SR with the keys (and the witnesses in the office--not MG who was not there--really did see her take them and the particulars.

She met a male there who she knew. Mr Kipper was a pseudonym she somehow concocted on the fly. Maybe he was rich and interested in buying properties for whatever reason, maybe pretending to be, who knows. But the viewing was a real viewing. He and SJL have a bit of an argument, we know she can argue because she had had an argument with her colleague that morning. So she's not a shrinking violet.

They come out, HR sees them, they are still arguing, doesn't have to be violent, just raised voices, this is what attracts HR's attention, and the male insists on driving SJL's double parked car. He opens the passenger seat, kind of pushes her inside. Again not violent but forceful, you sit there, I'll drive. He pushes the seat back, drives the car to Stevenage Road where he is maybe parked, gets out she gets out, they get into his car or maybe a house close by. Maybe SJL was helping someone get good deals on new properties coming on the market.

According to DV, SJL had an argument with a colleague that morning over whether his client or her client would he buying a certain property after both had bid. Who won the argument in the office that morning, SJL or her colleague? Who was the client? If SJL lost the argument, would her client be angry? She would lose the commission on the house sale? The police thought SJL was living beyond her means but could not find any oddities in her bank accounts, they even asked her friends if she was working as an escort on the side but they could not find any evidence. What if she was doing property deals for someone, helping them out for a bit extra commission? Nothing dodgy but something that would mean someone was making money out of a friendship with her? I am trying to think of other scenarios because I find it hard to believe that CV would murder SJL (a sex assault gone wrong is really the only scenario that makes sense here given that CV seemed willing to give her the pocket diary back, and his wife at least was also present at the pub).

SJL probably had lots going on in her life and compartmentalised it so that her parents didn't know a lot of it (very normal), her work colleagues didn't know her as well as they thought they did, etc.

 

[sian morris]

Here it is:

1986 PHOTOGRAPHS SUZY LAMPLUGH YEAR OLD ESTATE AGENT UN... - Vintage Photography | eBay

Thanks for posting that link. When you first posted the SL press cuttings, I took a further dive and saw that photo of Mr K, which I have never seen before. He was standing, facing the camera, looking surprised?? Probably the paps. The ebay seller has now ended all the SL listings as far as I can tell.

 

[Terryb808]

Yes.

Especially when you consider that HR's story evolved so fast, within just a couple of hours of his first talk with MG when he remembered seeing the couple he had then gone on to recall that the woman was bundled into a car.

Let's just presume for a moment this was true though.

Let's assume that SJL went to 37SR with the keys (and the witnesses in the office--not MG who was not there--really did see her take them and the particulars.

She met a male there who she knew. Mr Kipper was a pseudonym she somehow concocted on the fly. Maybe he was rich and interested in buying properties for whatever reason, maybe pretending to be, who knows. But the viewing was a real viewing. He and SJL have a bit of an argument, we know she can argue because she had had an argument with her colleague that morning. So she's not a shrinking violet.

They come out, HR sees them, they are still arguing, doesn't have to be violent, just raised voices, this is what attracts HR's attention, and the male insists on driving SJL's double parked car. He opens the passenger seat, kind of pushes her inside. Again not violent but forceful, you sit there, I'll drive. He pushes the seat back, drives the car to Stevenage Road where he is maybe parked, gets out she gets out, they get into his car or maybe a house close by. Maybe SJL was helping someone get good deals on new properties coming on the market.

According to DV, SJL had an argument with a colleague that morning over whether his client or her client would he buying a certain property after both had bid. Who won the argument in the office that morning, SJL or her colleague? Who was the client? If SJL lost the argument, would her client be angry? She would lose the commission on the house sale? The police thought SJL was living beyond her means but could not find any oddities in her bank accounts, they even asked her friends if she was working as an escort on the side but they could not find any evidence. What if she was doing property deals for someone, helping them out for a bit extra commission? Nothing dodgy but something that would mean someone was making money out of a friendship with her? I am trying to think of other scenarios because I find it hard to believe that CV would murder SJL (a sex assault gone wrong is really the only scenario that makes sense here given that CV seemed willing to give her the pocket diary back, and his wife at least was also present at the pub).

SJL probably had lots going on in her life and compartmentalised it so that her parents didn't know a lot of it (very normal), her work colleagues didn't know her as well as they thought they did, etc.

It’s certainly an option, 37 Shorrolds had just come onto the market that week, so would make an excellent option for your scenario. No offers thus far and maybe the vendor wanted a quick sale?
So if SJL’s Mr Kipper is actually her business partner involving under the table property sales at knockdown prices. In this scenario SJL would possibly (as you say) let him drive her car to Stevenage Road. Would Suzy then get out of the car lock the passenger door, leave her purse inside and not get the keys back and make sure the drivers door was locked? Also, if the car was parked in the same spot as it was found, why didn’t the workmen notice the couple?
It’s more likely that BW’s sighting at 2.45pm would fit better with this scenario, he took SJL to another location (Hammersmith way) and then abandoned her car sometime after 4.00pm, but before 5.15pm.
Whatever was going on had to involve serious money and substantial loss to result in murder.
If SJL made £3k per property you could make a lot of money over 12 months, so police believed she was living above her means, but couldn’t find a reason for her funds.
This option while not illegal is unethical when you are taking profit away from the company you work for.
Okay developing this a little further, what if this practice was widespread among Sturgis employees? In this case whoever was behind it would want to keep her quiet and a good thing going.

 

[Pinkizzy]

Thanks for posting that link. When you first posted the SL press cuttings, I took a further dive and saw that photo of Mr K, which I have never seen before. He was standing, facing the camera, looking surprised?? Probably the paps. The ebay seller has now ended all the SL listings as far as I can tell.

Can you post a link to the smiling MR K?

 

[Konstantin]

It’s certainly an option, 37 Shorrolds had just come onto the market that week, so would make an excellent option for your scenario. No offers thus far and maybe the vendor wanted a quick sale?
So if SJL’s Mr Kipper is actually her business partner involving under the table property sales at knockdown prices. In this scenario SJL would possibly (as you say) let him drive her car to Stevenage Road. Would Suzy then get out of the car lock the passenger door, leave her purse inside and not get the keys back and make sure the drivers door was locked? Also, if the car was parked in the same spot as it was found, why didn’t the workmen notice the couple?
It’s more likely that BW’s sighting at 2.45pm would fit better with this scenario, he took SJL to another location (Hammersmith way) and then abandoned her car sometime after 4.00pm, but before 5.15pm.
Whatever was going on had to involve serious money and substantial loss to result in murder.
If SJL made £3k per property you could make a lot of money over 12 months, so police believed she was living above her means, but couldn’t find a reason for her funds.
This option while not illegal is unethical when you are taking profit away from the company you work for.
Okay developing this a little further, what if this practice was widespread among Sturgis employees? In this case whoever was behind it would want to keep her quiet and a good thing going.

yes I like where you are going with this.
I agree about the abandoned car.
Was Shorrolds Road a one way street and if so which way, meaning if a car was double parked on the street would the passenger door or the driver's door be the one facing 37 and 35 (or 39, I can't recall which one HR lived at).
I think if the bundling into a car is remotely true -- and it could just mean someone in a hurry opening the passenger door and helping her in rather quickly -- then it makes more sense for HR to have seen that happen if the passenger door was on the side of the street facing 37. I assume his sighting happened from his front window so what was his field of vision to see this happening -- after all if it did happen, then it must have happened pretty fast.
Or even if she was pushed fast into the drivers seat and told to get a move on, could HR have seen that? In that scenario was the drivers door facing the house?
Was SJL driving the car when BW saw her?
If the car was later abandoned, whoever abandoned it didn't have to be driving it away from 37SR.
Your version makes sense if we assume that BW's sighting is real, since it helps us understand how this sighting could have happened at all at that time, because it means something pretty serious was going on in SJL's life that afternoon that meant she stayed out of the office all that time.
Do / did estate agents take backhanders from clients who wanted to purchase properties and were happy to give the estate agent who arranged a sale a bit of cash under the table for fighting their corner and getting the bid accepted? Or something similar? The property market was hot at the time, as several of the ex Sturgis employees who DV interviewed remarked. And SJL had been trying to be upwardly mobile, hanging out with richer folks than she normally did in Mayfair and so on. Could someone have had her in their back pocket and be using her to get quick sales? Or something similar?
Maybe you could flip properties and make money back then or similar?

 

[sian morris]

Can you post a link to the smiling MR K?

I can't find it anymore.

 

[sian morris]

yes I like where you are going with this.
I agree about the abandoned car.
Was Shorrolds Road a one way street and if so which way, meaning if a car was double parked on the street would the passenger door or the driver's door be the one facing 37 and 35 (or 39, I can't recall which one HR lived at).
I think if the bundling into a car is remotely true -- and it could just mean someone in a hurry opening the passenger door and helping her in rather quickly -- then it makes more sense for HR to have seen that happen if the passenger door was on the side of the street facing 37. I assume his sighting happened from his front window so what was his field of vision to see this happening -- after all if it did happen, then it must have happened pretty fast.
Or even if she was pushed fast into the drivers seat and told to get a move on, could HR have seen that? In that scenario was the drivers door facing the house?
Was SJL driving the car when BW saw her?
If the car was later abandoned, whoever abandoned it didn't have to be driving it away from 37SR.
Your version makes sense if we assume that BW's sighting is real, since it helps us understand how this sighting could have happened at all at that time, because it means something pretty serious was going on in SJL's life that afternoon that meant she stayed out of the office all that time.
Do / did estate agents take backhanders from clients who wanted to purchase properties and were happy to give the estate agent who arranged a sale a bit of cash under the table for fighting their corner and getting the bid accepted? Or something similar? The property market was hot at the time, as several of the ex Sturgis employees who DV interviewed remarked. And SJL had been trying to be upwardly mobile, hanging out with richer folks than she normally did in Mayfair and so on. Could someone have had her in their back pocket and be using her to get quick sales? Or something similar?
Maybe you could flip properties and make money back then or similar?

According to AS, SL was driving when BW saw her.