GUILTY UK - Tia Sharp, 12, New Addington, London, 3 Aug 2012 #3

[JTOL_1984]

I think that is why they did not want to use C.S's car to take Tia's body from the house, any movement would be traced.

I wonder if SH had planned to steal a car or had some other plan which went wrong.
I would not think he had planned for Tia to remain in the loft for as long as she did.

I do think that Tia's murder (if it was indeed murder, not an accident which I think is still a possibility) wasn't pre-meditated: IMO too many details changed and the stories of SH (if he was involved) weren't well thought out enough to have been a pre-mediated plan. Therefore I believe that for whatever reason TS was murdered (unless it was death by accident) it was a reaction to something that happened on that day (an argument, trying to silence her etc.).

Therefore one thing I do feel is that the story of Tia going off shopping in Croydon was intended to send the search away from the house, away from the immediate area, and away from the family themselves. Whoever is responsible probably didn't think the CCTV would be such an issue (maybe either not considering it, or thinking it would be plausible for someone not to be captured on CCTV during the journey she took somehow)- not realising the police would search so closely to home and there would be no chance to move the body later.

I don't think moving the body would be an immediate thought after TS died/was killed- probably the main concern would be to hide her, and tidy/clean up to hide/destroy any immediate evidence as moving her would be too risky or perhaps they were in shock over what had happened (as I said I don't think it was premediated). Once the police decended, there was nothing to do but sit and wait, try not to raise suspicion and hope they got away with it. When the loft was searched SH (if it was him) must have thought he'd gotten away with it, so then it was a case of waiting it out until things died down. Maybe the elaborate funfair story, and the cleaning details were brought on by increasing police suspicions that Tia never left the area and it was the pressure that brought the stories out. SH thought he was covering all bases by elaborating the story, but it just made him look more guilty. Based on the idea it wasn't pre-mediated, it would explain why a lot doesn't make sense- whoever did it was not thinking straight, then tried to backtrack later. Maybe rushing out and searching a funfair seemed plausable at the time, when a rational person would start closer to home and ask neighbours/phone the missing girl's mother before searching random places further afield (after seraching/asking around the immediate vecinity and informing NS, I for one would have started by taking the route Tia would supposedly have taken to the shopping centre, then asked around the shopping centre itself as that's where he said she was heading, before searching funfairs at random!). The point is- I don't think whoever did this was thinking rationally, so trying to rationalise it is probably impossible! :banghead:

 

[Skigh]

Because I wanted to point out that the locals believe there's a much bigger story developing. That's all. Honestly, I wish you were all in a pub where I'd feel safe telling you. However we are not in the pub.

I think the reporter from the Croydon newspaper ,who tweeted outside court on Monday, hinted at a bigger story

 

[Lola]

The thing with rumours is the get more vivid with each re-telling.

If locals knew that Tia was at risk from something then it was their duty to inform social services.

Given what we've "seen" of the estate and the general level of inhabitant that would seem unlikely.

 

[MobyBluff]

Was it just him looking around or did C.S join him? If not what was she doing in the hour or so he was at the fair?

I would think SH might have an unregistered mobile to contact some of his shadier friends.

Hour or so?

 

[MobyBluff]

The thing with rumours is the get more vivid with each re-telling.

If locals knew that Tia was at risk from something then it was their duty to inform social services.

Tia lived with her mother in Mitcham

 

[Lola]

either way, one of the papers stated that family members were known to social services. Tia was not specifically mentioned....didn't say Mitcham, didn't say Addington...someone was on the radar but was not deemed at risk or a risk apparently.

 

[MobyBluff]

MobyBluff, can I remind you of something that someone has already pointed out a few posts back. It is against the rules of the forum to hint at rumors that cannot be posted in the forum. I can think of many reasons for that rule, not least of which that it can be irritating and trigger lots of offtopic posts about the Queen and her butler

I think the reporter from the Croydon newspaper ,who tweeted outside court on Monday, hinted at a bigger story

and he has likely heard FAR more many rumours than me...and first hand. Point taken!

 

[Skigh]

I do think that Tia's murder (if it was indeed murder, not an accident which I think is still a possibility) wasn't pre-meditated: IMO too many details changed and the stories of SH (if he was involved) weren't well thought out enough to have been a pre-mediated plan. Therefore I believe that for whatever reason TS was murdered (unless it was death by accident) it was a reaction to something that happened on that day (an argument, trying to silence her etc.).

Therefore one thing I do feel is that the story of Tia going off shopping in Croydon was intended to send the search away from the house, away from the immediate area, and away from the family themselves. Whoever is responsible probably didn't think the CCTV would be such an issue (maybe either not considering it, or thinking it would be plausible for someone not to be captured on CCTV during the journey she took somehow)- not realising the police would search so closely to home and there would be no chance to move the body later.

I don't think moving the body would be an immediate thought after TS died/was killed- probably the main concern would be to hide her, and tidy/clean up to hide/destroy any immediate evidence as moving her would be too risky or perhaps they were in shock over what had happened (as I said I don't think it was premediated). Once the police decended, there was nothing to do but sit and wait, try not to raise suspicion and hope they got away with it. When the loft was searched SH (if it was him) must have thought he'd gotten away with it, so then it was a case of waiting it out until things died down. Maybe the elaborate funfair story, and the cleaning details were brought on by increasing police suspicions that Tia never left the area and it was the pressure that brought the stories out. SH thought he was covering all bases, but it just made him look more guilty. Based on the idea it wasn't pre-mediated, it would explain why a lot doesn't make sense- whoever did it was not thinking straight, then tried to backtrack later. Maybe rushing out and searching a funfair seemed plausable at the time, when a rational person would start closer to home and ask neighbours/phone the missing girl's mother. The point is- I don't think whoever did this was thinking rationally, so trying to rationalise it is probably impossible! :banghead:

I would have thought that SH with all his previous convictions would be only to aware of cctv.He probably knew where all of them on the estate were placed!!

SH has probably experienced a few house searches in his time so he could not be at all confident the loft would not be thoroughly searched.(I am still inclined to think she could have been in next doors loft for a while)

I think you are right about trying to think rationally about this as so many pieces do not make sense.

 

[josie1986]

I got one, its called Bromley lol

As for cctv, yes they would have been seen on quite a lot

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2

how far would you say the fun fair was from the house?

if they walked instead of using the car it may be easier to trace them via cctv if they actually did go to and look for her.

 

[MobyBluff]

Perhaps in future I should use these rumours and post theories around them? Would that make you cynics happier?

Athough the moderator didn't like someone doing similar yesterday.

Note to self....must read the rules.....and learn to play them.

 

[Dushi]

You probably should read the rules here...

Inviting outside contact or alluding to "private" additional information:

“Inviting” is termed as a post where you invite other members to contact you to find out more information, rather than post it in the forum. This is not allowed and any posts with emails or invitations to contact for more information will either be edited or deleted entirely. This includes use of the Private Message system via comments such as “Check your PMs” or “PM me” posted in discussion threads. Think about it - it's like whispering into someone's ear while you are at a table full of other people. If you want to have a private conversation just have it, don't announce it. Additionally,please don't drop hints or post on the board that you know something or are privy to inside information but you won't or can't post it.
If you can't post it, don't.

Rules Etiquette & Information - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

It can save you a lot of trouble and deleted posts

 

[Lola]

Moby - don't know what your rumours are, but I can guess...doesn't take a genius to figure out that SH dating NS and then hooking up with CS could actually be due to his real interest...which was neither one of them.

 

[Skigh]

Tia lived with her mother in Mitcham

She had previously lived in the house in Addington and was a frequent visitor.

If the rumours you mentioned(which you indicated were vile) are from people now discussing what they knew was happening within the family and it was a cut above what locals deemed usual within their community and therefore Tia was at risk, an anonymous phone call was all that was needed to alert the authorities.

 

[graceholl]

Moby - don't know what your rumours are, but I can guess...doesn't take a genius to figure out that SH dating NS and then hooking up with CS could actually be due to his real interest...which was neither one of them.

I don't want to believe that this was the case, but it does seem a very real possibility, doesn't it. And the fact that he was unemployed & she was on her summer holidays meant they'd have had a lot of time alone together. (not suggesting she was complicit in whatever was going on if indeed it was going on)

 

[josie1986]

india ive got a question about the secret millionaire clip.

when the guy is talking to the young guy with the skinhead,there are shops behind them.are they the shops where the co-op where tia was caught on cctv?

i caught a pharmacy and an rs mccolls but couldnt see much more

oh,and do you know recognize the part of the estate where he is staying? is it near SH/CB's house?

(keep editing to add more questions sorry!)

 

[Lola]

grace - he'd been in her life for a long time - who knows but she would have been vulnerable from a very early age and perhaps as she got older, either things escalated or she became more aware? Two things really freaked me from the beginning -- the fact that both mom and grandma dated this ugly wreck of a man AND when mom "disappeared' (said to me there was some element of guilt or not being able to handle the situation -- as if she were thinking OMG what have I done?)

like when you have a feeling about something and push your feelings down not wanting to believe them....and then WHAM you find out you were right?!

 

[graceholl]

Another thing that puzzles me.

If the police had been gathering solid evidence during the week Tia was missing they could have arrested and charged Hazell even without the body.

As soon as the body was found, Hazell was arrested, and charged very quickly. Before the results of the post mortem or any forensic evidence from the body had become available.

Where did the sufficient evidence that's needed for a charge come from within mere hours of the body being discovered? Or has Hazell confessed (to manslaughter maybe)?

 

[MobyBluff]

Moby - don't know what your rumours are, but I can guess...doesn't take a genius to figure out that SH dating NS and then hooking up with CS could actually be due to his real interest...which was neither one of them.

That's an interesting theory

 

[Lola]

Another thing that puzzles me.

If the police had been gathering solid evidence during the week Tia was missing they could have arrested and charged Hazell even without the body.

As soon as the body was found, Hazell was arrested, and charged very quickly. Before the results of the post mortem or any forensic evidence from the body had become available.

Where did the sufficient evidence that's needed for a charge come from within mere hours of the body being discovered? Or has Hazell confessed (to manslaughter maybe)?

Could they have been hoping she was being held somewhere? and then when the body was discovered...no need to keep SH on ice.

 

[MobyBluff]

Another thing that puzzles me.

If the police had been gathering solid evidence during the week Tia was missing they could have arrested and charged Hazell even without the body.

As soon as the body was found, Hazell was arrested, and charged very quickly. Before the results of the post mortem or any forensic evidence from the body had become available.

Where did the sufficient evidence that's needed for a charge come from within mere hours of the body being discovered? Or has Hazell confessed (to manslaughter maybe)?

They couldn't arrest a man for murder without knowing there was a murder. Clearly they didn't have sufficient proof to arrest until the body was found.