Unwanted Birth Control Advice Leads To 76 yr Old Woman Being Banned From Bus

[Nova]

The claims may or may not have been true. Same can be said for our bus riders claims.

I know. I meant that to properly evaluate the principle, we should assume the claims are true. (Obviously, that particular woman's claims of demonic children are suspect, so it would be easy to side against her. Doing so confuses the issue was my point.)

 

[luthersmama]

There is way too much that we don't know about these cases. The details are important.

For example, the "public" bus line might actually be run by a municipal authority or a transportation authority that has the ability to place limits on what happens on its property. Just like a school district. A school is "public" in one sense, but a school district has the authority to say "Folks that are not our students or employees are not allowed in the school." A transportation authority, although funded by tax dollars, may have the ability to exclude people who do not follow the authority's rules. If she was warned not to pester other passengers, then warned to stay off the property, and she came on anyway, she was trespassing. Municipal authorities, transportation authorities, port authorities and school districts are different from political subdivisions. Their space is not necessarily "public" the way a sidewalk is.

The rules about "public property" and free speech are very, very complicated. Without knowing all of the details of a particular case, it is hard to say that somebody did or did not follow the law.

 

[Nova]

OK, so how come the homeless bums that "harass" me on every street in SF can't be banned from that public property?

I was in the city a month ago and this guy was persistent. I was talking on my phone on the sidewalk outside the building I was working in. I told him off and gave him the people's eyebrow. He then proceeded to a Wells Fargo ATM a few feet away and started agressively begging an elderly Asian man at the ATM. The man looked scared and kept saying, "leave me alone". I think he was afraid he was going to be robbed at the ATM. I stood close by and watched in case the threat got worse. I stepped in and told the bum to get lost, that he can't approach people at an ATM. He was cursing at me but he left. I just don't put up with that crap.

That is way more annoying in my book than some old lady lecturing about birth control. Maybe she could get a job at the public schools? Just kidding. If she had racial overtones, maybe she had a point and maybe she didn't. But banning her is extreme imo.

Some cities have banned panhandlers in certain areas (particularly those where tourists are likely to be offended). I suspect SF is too liberal for that, but it's a controversial law anywhere. Or should be.

 

[JBean]

I know. I meant that to properly evaluate the principle, we should assume the claims are true. (Obviously, that particular woman's claims of demonic children are suspect, so it would be easy to side against her. Doing so confuses the issue was my point.)

Calling the patrons and drug addicts is another angle that makes this case clear as mud lol.

I wonder what the laws are about being a public nuisance? Would they apply? are there any that are enforceable?
I am thinking of the thread about the girls that were making so much noise in their backyard pool that they were a nuisance to some of the neighbors.
The neighbors took legal action, but there was no place for it to go and was dismissed. They tried to apply a nuisance type law IIRC, but it was decided that it was not intended for little girls in their backyards.

 

[JBean]

There is way too much that we don't know about these cases. The details are important.

For example, the "public" bus line might actually be run by a municipal authority or a transportation authority that has the ability to place limits on what happens on its property. Just like a school district. A school is "public" in one sense, but a school district has the authority to say "Folks that are not our students or employees are not allowed in the school." A transportation authority, although funded by tax dollars, may have the ability to exclude people who do not follow the authority's rules. If she was warned not to pester other passengers, then warned to stay off the property, and she came on anyway, she was trespassing. Municipal authorities, transportation authorities, port authorities and school districts are different from political subdivisions. Their space is not necessarily "public" the way a sidewalk is.

The rules about "public property" and free speech are very, very complicated. Without knowing all of the details of a particular case, it is hard to say that somebody did or did not follow the law.

Abslolutely. This is why I have no opinion on this case and am more on a fact finding mission.lol.

 

[Nova]

Abslolutely. This is why I have no opinion on this case and am more on a fact finding mission.lol.

I agree it's a great case to use to look at the laws.

 

[Boyzmomee]

harassment is not only a threat. if every time a 20something white girl get on a bus 1 guy hits on them and when turned down calls them a "b$%ch" this repeated behavior would be harassment. if every time a young black man gets on the bus 1 middle age white guys says "ni$$ers to the back of the bus" it would be harassment. if every time two men get on the bus together a teenage hispanic girl says" may f%&s burn in hell" it is harassment.
we do not have the right to be free from being offended but repeated speech from 1 person can be harassment. if the bus company had let this older lady ride and insult every young mother of hispanic descent then they may face a lawsuit from the moms.

Huh? Did the older woman call anyone racially charged names or use obscene language?

I would have said nothing but I have sympathy for her position.

I also think that people riding the bus should be free from comments about their immigration and parental status.

If she was unable to control her six children and they were intrusive to me, I would have said something about that.

 

[Boyzmomee]

Have you ever flown over the United States? I think we've room to grow, however, it seems that the educated and working (no matter what the race) are having less children because they are responsible people who take responsibility for their own.

Other countries are far worse at over populating, polluting and wasting natural resources. The U.S. has it's problems but we are the most generous and a very conservation oriented society.

I totally disagree that if someone can support their kids it's anyone's business. This is a free country, but founded on the premis that the government stays out of your life and you do your own thing, and succeed or suffer the consequences of your choices.

It becomes my business when you ask me to pay for your irresponsibility.

Exactly....and we DO pay and pay and pay.

 

[Boyzmomee]

I certainly see your point and I agree people shouldn't have kids they can't support. But the last I heard, most food stamp recipients (children) get something like $3/day. I don't think they buy a lot of steaks with that money.

Welfare doesn't pay like it used to. And given all the ways our tax money is wasted, feeding children isn't on my list of top ten gripes.

Oh, if it were only just food stamps.

There is also medical/dental care for each child at public expense (including prenatal care for mom), along with section 8 housing, free breakfast and lunch at school, WIC, reduced utilities, special after school programs, special education, tutoring, counseling, parenting classes, CPS intervention. increased law enforcement costs, foster care, mental health care, and substance abuse treatment.

Don't kid yourself. I'm not suggesting that 100% of poor people lead these kids of lives.

However, look at a low income area, the number of children per family, and the services used. That should clue you in.

 

[SadieMae]

Exactly....and we DO pay and pay and pay.

I totally understand this! I was a single mother who worked full time AND went to a university full time with 2 toddlers (Dead dog tired all the time) After I got a job, I was amazed seeing women who had MORE than me who did NOTHING to make a life for themself or their children. My route paid off in the end though. :woohoo: I can see giving a helping hand, nothing wrong with that. Once that mother is a working taxpayer, she's putting back what she was given. But there are those that expect the public to provide the money to care for their kids until they are 18 while they sit on their *ss. AND they keep having baby after baby :furious: ..no excuse. Some women find themselves in poverty with children by no fault of thier own...I applaud those that have the fortitude to take every advantage available to make her own way to provide for herself and her children. I know firsthand...it d*amn sure ain't easy.

 

[ziggy]

My mother was a grocery checker for years and years. She used to get SO irritated when people on food stamps would also by HUGE bags of dog food. They could afford to feed a big dog?

It's true Nova, just like you feel about over-populating, that's it not just the room more people take up, it's resources, polution etc. It adds up. The financial drain on the taxpayers is huge when the poor keep having children they can't afford.

In addition, the poor in this country often have cell phones, televisions, microwaves and many things that poor people in other countries don't have.

We need a system that encourages people to get off welfare, not leave them so content to stay on it.

 

[eleven]

Huh? Did the older woman call anyone racially charged names or use obscene language?

I would have said nothing but I have sympathy for her position.

I also think that people riding the bus should be free from comments about their immigration and parental status.

If she was unable to control her six children and they were intrusive to me, I would have said something about that.

Sounds to me like this old woman could do some good with a child being "intrusive" during a bus ride. Children have a way of making people around them happy (I think most of the time) and I think it'd do her some good to lighten up and have a little fun. Might take some of the "crotchedy-ness" away, LOL.

It would take a lot for me to feel intruded on by a child while I was riding public transportation, but that's just me.

 

[angelmom]

Huh? Did the older woman call anyone racially charged names or use obscene language?

I would have said nothing but I have sympathy for her position.

I also think that people riding the bus should be free from comments about their immigration and parental status.

If she was unable to control her six children and they were intrusive to me, I would have said something about that.

The older woman didn't specifically use racial epithets, but did speak of "those people" coming to our country and taking over by having so many children. Not exactly "the N word" (or "the F word" in IW's case) but still racist language and quite hateful.

Oh, if it were only just food stamps.

There is also medical/dental care for each child at public expense (including prenatal care for mom), along with section 8 housing, free breakfast and lunch at school, WIC, reduced utilities, special after school programs, special education, tutoring, counseling, parenting classes, CPS intervention. increased law enforcement costs, foster care, mental health care, and substance abuse treatment.

Don't kid yourself. I'm not suggesting that 100% of poor people lead these kids of lives.

However, look at a low income area, the number of children per family, and the services used. That should clue you in.

Whatever your opinion on this, and I do happen to agree to a certain extent, the problem is that the older woman was making a HUGE assumption that a) these women were illegal immigrants and not American citizens, b) that all of the children were theirs, c) that they couldn't afford to take care of their children simply b/c they were riding the bus (she was on the bus too!), and d) that the children were not wanted - that birth control, if only they'd known, could have spared them all of this trouble! :doh:

In my experience, jumping to conclusions like this is the leading cause of foot-in-mouth disease, and it is preventable. She was asked to stop accosting young women with her unwanted advice and she chose not to stop. Just like a child who is offered the choice between ceasing unacceptable behavior or being removed from the situation, this woman chose to be removed rather than stop. She has no one to blame but herself.

 

[Nova]

Oh, if it were only just food stamps.

There is also medical/dental care for each child at public expense (including prenatal care for mom), along with section 8 housing, free breakfast and lunch at school, WIC, reduced utilities, special after school programs, special education, tutoring, counseling, parenting classes, CPS intervention. increased law enforcement costs, foster care, mental health care, and substance abuse treatment.

Don't kid yourself. I'm not suggesting that 100% of poor people lead these kids of lives.

However, look at a low income area, the number of children per family, and the services used. That should clue you in.

Come on. The amount of money we spend on poor people is a drop in the bucket compared with our corporate welfare programs and what we spend to kill Iraqis.

Poor people everywhere in the world have more children (in societies with welfare systems and in ones without). There are a number of reasons, but it isn't a poor couple sitting down and saying, "Let's have sex. The state will send us an extra $100 a month."

 

[Nova]

My mother was a grocery checker for years and years. She used to get SO irritated when people on food stamps would also by HUGE bags of dog food. They could afford to feed a big dog?

It's true Nova, just like you feel about over-populating, that's it not just the room more people take up, it's resources, polution etc. It adds up. The financial drain on the taxpayers is huge when the poor keep having children they can't afford.

In addition, the poor in this country often have cell phones, televisions, microwaves and many things that poor people in other countries don't have.

We need a system that encourages people to get off welfare, not leave them so content to stay on it.

I believe such a system was instituted under President Clinton. Spending one's life on welfare is much rarer than it used to be.

 

[OneLostGrl]

Come on. The amount of money we spend on poor people is a drop in the bucket compared with our corporate welfare programs and what we spend to kill Iraqis.

Poor people everywhere in the world have more children (in societies with welfare systems and in ones without). There are a number of reasons, but it isn't a poor couple sitting down and saying, "Let's have sex. The state will send us an extra $100 a month."

My "foster" son's (who is back with his mother for one last try before her rights are terminated) Biological mother and her new hubby actually DO do this! Their youngest was about to turn 5 so they began trying to have another baby because, as she herself said, "I'll loose my WIC when he turns 5 so I have to have another baby!"

 

[Nova]

My "foster" son's (who is back with his mother for one last try before her rights are terminated) Biological mother and her new hubby actually DO do this! Their youngest was about to turn 5 so they began trying to have another baby because, as she herself said, "I'll loose my WIC when he turns 5 so I have to have another baby!"

I stand corrected.

(Best of luck and my deepest compassion for your and your son. I had friends with a similar situation so I have some idea what a nightmare it is.)

(Love, love, love your sig cartoon, BTW. )

 

[OneLostGrl]

I stand corrected.

(Best of luck and my deepest compassion for your and your son. I had friends with a similar situation so I have some idea what a nightmare it is.)

(Love, love, love your sig cartoon, BTW. )

Thanks and thanks

 

[Boyzmomee]

I stand corrected. ))

Finally.

 

[Boyzmomee]

[/B]

Sounds to me like this old woman could do some good with a child being "intrusive" during a bus ride. Children have a way of making people around them happy (I think most of the time) and I think it'd do her some good to lighten up and have a little fun. Might take some of the "crotchedy-ness" away, LOL.

It would take a lot for me to feel intruded on by a child while I was riding public transportation, but that's just me.

Yes, it is just you.

You are making assumptions that because this woman is older she is behaving "crotchedy."

I have a much more positive view of older people.