US coal mine collapse traps six-Utah - Thread No. 2

[Earthbound Misfit I]

Mine's roof 'good,' rescuer had reported
By Robert Gehrke
The Salt Lake Tribune
Article Last Updated: 08/21/2007 09:52:49 AM MDT

The federal mine inspector killed in last Thursday's rescue attempts at the Crandall Canyon coal mine had conducted a brief inspection of the mine's roof in May and reported that everything appeared "to be good."

Gary Jensen, the roof control specialist in the Mine Safety and Health Administration's Price field office, was one of three men killed Thursday evening when yet another in a long series of bumps that had rocked the mine since the Aug. 6 collapse blew apart walls, hurling coal and rescuers across the tunnel.

According to Jensen's report, obtained by The Salt Lake Tribune, he arrived at the mine during the second shift on May 22, reviewed pre-shift logs, and drove with company officials deep into the mine. He then walked to the "face" where the active mining was taking place.

"The pillars are hour-glassing, the roof appears to be good," Jensen stated in his handwritten notes. In each of the four entries, he walked along the faces and noted that "all appear to be the same," then left the mine.

Jensen visited Crandall Canyon six days after UtahAmerican Energy had asked MSHA to allow the company to conduct retreat mining - a process that entails cutting away the pillars supporting the roof - in an area known as the south barrier, a thick wall of coal left in place to help support roof over the parallel entry ways.

More at link: http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_6676798

 

[Boyzmomee]

How many more dead miners is "closure" worth? IMO there are already 9 too many lives of good men sacrificed. IMO it's enough - too much lost already. It's sad for EVERYONE involved - but more dead men is NOT any kind of closure I'd want and it isn't worth ONE MORE LIFE.

What made those men who they were is no longer in those shells lying inside the mine. It will live on in their loved ones and friends and fellow miners. THEY would not want one more man to die on their behalf to retrieve an empty husk. Too much has already been lost, and too much pain has already been endured. Not one other family - not one more!

MY OPINION

Your opinion and mine.

 

[Earthbound Misfit I]

I think Sharon feels better that Laci has a proper burial location. If Laci's body had not been found Sharon would be forever wondering where Laci and Conner were.

Ask Sharon Rocha about "closure." She says there isn't any and she has remains.

 

[Boyzmomee]

I think Sharon feels better that Laci has a proper burial location. If Laci's body had not been found Sharon would be forever wondering where Laci and Conner were.

The miner's familes are not "wondering where they are." They know they were lost in the mine collapse.

 

[Earthbound Misfit I]

No, but they are wondering if they are alive still and what happened to them. Did they die instantly? Did they suffer? Those are some of the things what will help them move on.

The miner's familes are not "wondering where they are." They know they were lost in the mine collapse.

 

[Boyzmomee]

No, but they are wondering if they are alive still and what happened to them. Did they die instantly? Did they suffer? Those are some of the things what will help them move on.

At what cost? More lives to know if their loves ones died instantly or suffered before they died? Those facts cannot be changed.

Do you really believe that the families will feel better to know their loved ones suffered before they died?

 

[Earthbound Misfit I]

I think they need to know the truth about what happened to their loved ones.

It's obvious we don't agree on this. We'll just leave it as that.

At what cost? More lives to know if their loves ones died instantly or suffered before they died? Thsoe facts cannot be changed.

Do you really believe that the families will feel better to know their loved ones suffered before they died?

 

[JBean]

I think they need to know the truth about what happened to their loved ones.

It's obvious we don't agree on this. We'll just leave it as that.

What an impossible situation. Damned if they do damned if they don't.
Tragedy all the way around.

 

[JanetElaine]

At what cost? More lives to know if their loves ones died instantly or suffered before they died? Those facts cannot be changed.

Do you really believe that the families will feel better to know their loved ones suffered before they died?

Who says they're dead? As far as I'm concerned they're still alive. The families aren't looking to find out how they died. As far as they're concerned these men are still alive. They want them located so they can get them out.

 

[Vegas Bride]

I believe the family members have been holding on to the hope their loved ones could be saved. They were told this repeatedly by the mine owner, didn't he say they would be found, whether dead or alive they would get them out?
What they have been going through now for over 2 weeks has to be pure hell. They can not be looking at anything the same way as most people are capable of because they have yet to wake up from this nightmare. How can someone let go of that last strand of hope when for 2 weeks people have been telling you miracles can happen and they will be found and it could be possible they were able to survive?

There have been other mining deaths in this area just like in other parts of the country, the 1 thing I can think of that could be helpful for these families is if they could meet with the people who were in this same situation. IMO no one else is capable of understanding all of the emotions, the fears and the sheer panick they are still in.

VB

 

[JanetElaine]

I wonder if there is any way to find out if they perished without risking more lives in a "rescue attempt?"

Well right now people are wondering how they can put Rovers on Mars but not a robot down 2000 feet. The cameras they put in through the holes really couldn't see far. Drill the 30 inch hole to where they were digging and let a robot down. IMO that would be a good way to get some more accurate information.

 

[JanetElaine]

I believe the family members have been holding on to the hope their loved ones could be saved. They were told this repeatedly by the mine owner, didn't he say they would be found, whether dead or alive they would get them out?
What they have been going through now for over 2 weeks has to be pure hell. They can not be looking at anything the same way as most people are capable of because they have yet to wake up from this nightmare. How can someone let go of that last strand of hope when for 2 weeks people have been telling you miracles can happen and they will be found and it could be possible they were able to survive?

There have been other mining deaths in this area just like in other parts of the country, the 1 thing I can think of that could be helpful for these families is if they could meet with the people who were in this same situation. IMO no one else is capable of understanding all of the emotions, the fears and the sheer panick they are still in.

VB

Exactly, and totally agreed with the non-bolded part of your post too!

 

[Jeana (DP)]

Ask Sharon Rocha about "closure." She says there isn't any and she has remains.

Stick to the topic of this thread PLEASE!

 

[harleysnana]

No sympathy here for that man!!!
I just heard on GMA last hole being
drilled & all operations will cease. Unless
miners are alive.

This whole situation is very sad.
At the beginning he said he would get them out dead or alive...
but that was before this last incident.
How many lives is it worth?
I think no matter what he does.. some will always find fault.

From their drilling it's obvious that many parts of the mine have
caved in. Also... the original cave in was 1,000 stronger than the one that
killed the 3 rescue workers...

At this point ….there really isn't a reason to drill a larger hole when they have no clue where their at!
Even if they did send a capsule down... those rescuers would also have to dig inside an unsafe mine to find them and the officials (not the owner) said absolutely no under ground digging.

It makes sense to me that if they don't find them with this last hole
then there really isn't a whole lot left for them to do.
The air quality in almost every hole can not sustain life.

There is some comfort in at least knowing where their at…
I’m not saying it won’t be hard for the families… but there are many people
who have to live their life not knowing where their loved ones are…
look at Natalee Holloway, Maura Murray, & Trenton Duckett’s families for example!

As far as closure… there never is any closure regardless of what situation your in… you just learn to cope!

I really feel bad for him...
he's damned if he does... damned if he doesn't.

 

[cheko1]

Yes, I'm also sure that holocaust victims who were murdered, cremated or buried in mass pits are resting in peace.

IMO, the disposition of one's earthly remains does not determine whether or not one is at rest.


Just think of all the missing and murdered people among us whose bodies have never been found.


What a horrific idea to think that not only did their killers take their lives but also their eternal rest.

This isn't the holocaust Boyz......

I also understand what your saying about the missing & the murdered whose bodies have never been found.

These miners went to work the same as most Americans do. They got trapped in a mine, the owner of the mine stood before everyone watching in the entire US & stated we'll bring them home dead or alive.

They have lists compiled of men who are "WILLING" to go into the mines. They don't want a dime......they'll sign wavers. They just want to bring the miners up. These are all miners who would never want left behind.

Seriously I don't see why anyone would have a problem with it. If it was my hubby or son I'd want them back. To many people who have lost loved ones it is the last honor you can offer a loved one.

 

[Earthbound Misfit I]

The Salt Lake Tribune
Article Last Updated: 08/21/2007 04:06:41 PM MDT

Posted: 3:56 PM- A spokesman for the families of miners trapped in the Crandall Canyon mine said today they believe their loved ones are still alive and they want the rescue effort to continue.

Price attorney Sonny Olsen told CNN's Wolf Blitzer that the families want mine co-owner Robert Murray to "use every asset at his disposal to find their loved ones."

He suggested simultaneous bore hole drill to increase the odds of finding the men.

A massive tunnel collapse of magnitude 3.9 trapped the six miners in the early hours of Aug. 6. In the more than two weeks since then, rescue
crews have drilled four different boreholes,

More at link: http://www.sltrib.com/ci_6680659

 

[FlowerChild]

-There is no guarantee they can drill a 30" diameter hole down almost 2000 feet.
-The earth in the area is constantly shifting - in the weeks it would take to drill a 30" hole 2000' deep any portion of it could shift and render the hole unusable or destroy the drilling equipment.
-They have no idea where the men are - they could drill this huge hole down and find no sign of them and a dead end cavern. Are they to then move over 100' and start drilling ANOTHER hole? And ANOTHER? How many? For how long? Better to spend the money for the families or to dig holes?
-Putting a human being down a 30" hole to hunt for these men is an unacceptable risk. The air is bad, the hole could shift or the mine could collapse again and kill/trap him and another life would be lost.
-How are the bodies (if they do find them) to be raised to the surface? At least 2 or 3 men in the mine would be necessary to move and prepare each body for raising. Again - risking life and limb to recover decomposing bodies in bad air 2000' feet from the surface thru a small 30" hole that could collapse or shift closed at any minute.
-What would the families feel if they got their loved one's remains at the price of 3 NEW men being trapped (or killed) getting the remains out? 6 men died, 3 were killed trying to rescue/recover them and we are to accept that 3 MORE should face death?

The families are understandably upset but they are making ridiculous demands for things to be done that cannot be accomplished. What worked in one instance will NOT work here - not every mine is the same depth or type or conditions. They have begun asking for the impossible at the great risk to MORE lives.

And I do NOT support the mining industry - like the oil and gas industry it has become far too lightly regulated and controlled by the Govt. It's a BIG VERY PROFITABLE business that is looked upon with great "favor" by the Bush Administration - and thus the Govt Agencies charged with enforcing, improving and regulating mine safety and methods are not empowered to act - or to truly punish inaction or hazards. "Wink wink, nudge nudge - just do something that looks like you are addressing these 300 violations and we'll see you in a year".

The problems are FAR bigger than one mine - and far too many lives have been lost in this one already. We aren't going to solve the problem by putting more men in harm's way. And closing down ONE mine just means they will move elsewhere and begin another one. The families will get compensation - and it will be nothing to the company bottom line - they were MINERS - and that implies a certain risk and release of liability - there is no way they can sue and get enough to even begin to have an effect on the COMPANY - and not the families, but their lawyers, will become wealthy.

It's very sad but people CAN move on without being able to view their loved one's remains. The 6 miners aren't lost - their families know (generally) where they are AND (generally) what happened to them. The mine tunnel collapsed. Some people lose loved ones and NEVER get their remains OR know WHAT happened to them or even where their remains MIGHT be. I mourn with the families but sometimes things are out of our control and we must accept that for mourning and then healing to begin.

My Opinion

 

[Earthbound Misfit I]

The Salt Lake Tribune
Article Last Updated: 08/21/2007 05:12:07 PM MDT

Posted: 4:53 PM- Gov. Jon Huntsman Jr. asked the federal Mine Safety and Health Administration today to immediately inspect two additional mines owned by Murray Energy Corp. in Carbon County, according to a news release from the governor's office.

The call came as Murray Energy Corp. said a fifth bore hole would not punch through in the Crandall Canyon mine until Wednesday morning. Four previous attempts to locate six trapped miners were unsuccessful, and company representatives have indicated this might be the last attempt. It was first thought the drill might penetrate into a cavity sometime Tuesday.

Huntsman also is preparing to appoint an independent investigation committee to make recommendations to ensure safety in Utah mines, his office said.
"These additional inspections are only the beginning of a larger investigation that needs to be conducted in Utah's deep mines to secure safety for our miners," Huntsman said in the release. "We must do all we can, at every level, to be prepared for a catastrophe like this one. This is the least we can do to ensure that the lives lost have not been in vain."

Source: http://www.sltrib.com/ci_6680768

 

[FlowerChild]

This isn't the holocaust Boyz......

I also understand what your saying about the missing & the murdered whose bodies have never been found.

These miners went to work the same as most Americans do. They got trapped in a mine, the owner of the mine stood before everyone watching in the entire US & stated we'll bring them home dead or alive.

They have lists compiled of men who are "WILLING" to go into the mines. They don't want a dime......they'll sign wavers. They just want to bring the miners up. These are all miners who would never want left behind.

Seriously I don't see why anyone would have a problem with it. If it was my hubby or son I'd want them back. To many people who have lost loved ones it is the last honor you can offer a loved one.

Would you be Ok with losing your husband AND son in a recovery effort for deceased people you didn't even know? And to get NO compensation for their sacrifice because they signed waivers? Is your son married? Have children? Are THEY willing to for him to sacrifice his life to TRY to give a stranger's remains to his family?
You'd be willing to lose your husband's and son's support and financial contributions forever? To waive ALL life insurance payments, future pensions or health benefits and pay for the funerals fully yourself? To go into debt perhaps? Lose your home perhaps?
And what if your son and husband should die during their attempts without recovering ANY remains and die in a collapsed tunnel 2000' underground - would you then expect OTHER men to risk their lives and their family's main income forever to recover your family member's remains? And if THOSE men died would you then expect MORE men to waive all compensation and step forward to recover the remains? How many more dead men with grieving and financially destitute families left behind are "acceptable" then? 3, 5, 12, 20?

It isn't the MONEY - it's the LIVES at risk. There is not enough compensation in the world to make losing a husband, father or brother "OK" again. That equipment doesn't operate itself and the recovery can't be done remotely. PEOPLE are going to risk their lives. Brotherhood is wonderful and admirable but you will NEVER convince me that those miners are sitting up in Heaven wanting even ONE MORE MAN to die on their behalf.

And I would not expect THAT for MY husband's remains and I would not allow even ONE man to risk life and limb to recover the empty shell of my husband (or sister, or parents). And I would NEVER agree to my husband risking EVERYTHING to recover even a family member's remains. NO WAY.

That's like saying that a dead body is worth more than a living, breathing person - how selfish.

My Opinion!

 

[JBean]

Would you be Ok with losing your husband AND son in a recovery effort for deceased people you didn't even know? And to get NO compensation for their sacrifice because they signed waivers? Is your son married? Have children? Are THEY willing to for him to sacrifice his life to TRY to give a stranger's remains to his family?
You'd be willing to lose your husband's and son's support and financial contributions forever? To waive ALL life insurance payments, future pensions or health benefits and pay for the funerals fully yourself? To go into debt perhaps? Lose your home perhaps?
And what if your son and husband should die during their attempts without recovering ANY remains and die in a collapsed tunnel 2000' underground - would you then expect OTHER men to risk their lives and their family's main income forever to recover your family member's remains? And if THOSE men died would you then expect MORE men to waive all compensation and step forward to recover the remains? How many more dead men with grieving and financially destitute families left behind are "acceptable" then? 3, 5, 12, 20?

It isn't the MONEY - it's the LIVES at risk. There is not enough compensation in the world to make losing a husband, father or brother "OK" again. That equipment doesn't operate itself and the recovery can't be done remotely. PEOPLE are going to risk their lives. Brotherhood is wonderful and admirable but you will NEVER convince me that those miners are sitting up in Heaven wanting even ONE MORE MAN to die on their behalf.

And I would not expect THAT for MY husband's remains and I would not allow even ONE man to risk life and limb to recover the empty shell of my husband (or sister, or parents). And I would NEVER agree to my husband risking EVERYTHING to recover even a family member's remains. NO WAY.

That's like saying that a dead body is worth more than a living, breathing person - how selfish.

My Opinion!

But it is their decision to make with their families.