GUILTY UT - Michele MacNeill, 50, found dead in bathtub, Pleasant Grove, 11 April 2007 - #2

[Bravo]

Oh, he could have suffocated her and then put her in the bathtub to make it look like an accidental drowning? Somehow she got all of those drugs in her that morning, and somehow her death was accomplished without any signs of a fight on Martin or Michele.

She had water in her lungs tho. It was expelled during CPR when the Medics arrived. She had to have breathing when he put her in the tub. IMO heavily sedated but alive. Very little resistance in that state. Pushed her face down and held it under water.

 

[Ina Cognito]

Oh, he could have suffocated her and then put her in the bathtub to make it look like an accidental drowning? Somehow she got all of those drugs in her that morning, and somehow her death was accomplished without any signs of a fight on Martin or Michele.

Suffocation would have left evidence of such I've wondered if he held her face under the running faucet and that is why the water was bloody?

 

[minor4th]

Has cross happened already? (Please?!) Were they able to make any good points?

Not yet -- only a voir dire during direct that took forever

 

[popsicle]

Guy Heinze jr - After kicking a juror off this morning, the judge ordered the jury to start deliberating from scratch @ 1030. Just came back with guilty on all charges. 8 murders, 1 assault and 2 drugs poss.

sorry o/t

 

[Zuri]

BTW for those less familar Lortab is essentially Vicodin. It's the same meds hydrocodone and acetominophen. They're just two different name brands. Why would a doctor give someone percocet and vicodin at the same time?

Prescribing these meds in concert is not unusual.
Percocet is given for acute pain in the immediate post op period, typically three days worth.
Vicodin is given for moderate pain, usually 3-7 days worth.
Prednisone was given for the swelling, probably in a small quantity and low dose. Not given in large quantities as it interferes with wound healing.

Different narcotics work better for different kinds of surgical pain, I.e. Dilaudid used a lot for ortho surgeries.

Vistaril or Phenergan used in conjunction with narcotics as they help with nausea and also potentiate the effects of the narcotics.

Ambien? Normally not prescribed as narcotics generally have a sedative effect.
Valium?? No earthly clue. Not medically indicated for this type of surgery. EVER.

Usually a stool softener/laxative is given as narcotics are binding.

MM had his hand in this one. And why would Michelle need refills after only 8 days. These meds are usually prescribed in quantities to last until patient returns to office for post operative check. IMO IMPO

 

[Ina Cognito]

I still can't even believe they did that voir dire after that very extended discussion of his credentials

 

[Bravo]

Guy Heinze jr - After kicking a juror off this morning, the judge ordered the jury to start deliberating from scratch @ 1030. Just came back with guilty on all charges. 8 murders, 1 assault and 2 drugs poss.

sorry o/t

Thanks for the update. I was about to hop on over to see if a Verdict had been reached. G it is and the right Verdict.

 

[zoey]

Yes, the Lortab was in liquid and pill form if I remember correctly. She only got a suppository just after her surgery, while in recovery. I know one thing, my pain mang doc would have more than a fit if he had a patient come to him taking lortab, percocet, valium and ambian.... more than a fit. You just do not typically do this these days but, this was 2007. That combo is very, very dangerous. There are many accidental ODs due to such meds being mixed like that. I totally do not understand the prescribing of both Percocet AND Lortab at the same time, that's very odd.

I still want to know the amount of pills for each RX

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

So I assume this is lunch? I am cooking so I am back and forth.. Is that witness done?

 

[Bravo]

I still want to know the amount of pills for each RX

Me too. Now I did see on the HLN site a pic of one of the pill bottles. I believe it was the Ambien bottle. Quantity was 30 with 0 repeats.

 

[popsicle]

So I assume this is lunch? I am cooking so I am back and forth.. Is that witness done?

yes and no

 

[Idaho Lynx]

What time did they say they would be back? I didn't catch it.

Returning at 1:30

 

[Nymeria]

Oh, he could have suffocated her and then put her in the bathtub to make it look like an accidental drowning? Somehow she got all of those drugs in her that morning, and somehow her death was accomplished without any signs of a fight on Martin or Michele.

If she was suffocated before being in the tub she would not have had any water in her lungs (no breathing in of water, already dead). I believe the EMT said she spit or coughed up water at one point, so she must have been breathing it in somewhere along the way.
Plus I assume this is something they would catch during the autopsy, they can tell if someone was dead before or after being found in/around water.

PS- see ETA below, lol.

 

[Bravo]

I just checked the WAT tweets. Yes lunch. Back at 1:30 their time. 3:30 EST.

 

[Ina Cognito]

Prescribing these meds in concert is not unusual.
Percocet is given for acute pain in the immediate post op period, typically three days worth.
Vicodin is given for moderate pain, usually 3-7 days worth.
Prednisone was given for the swelling, probably in a small quantity and low dose. Not given in large quantities as it interferes with wound healing.

Different narcotics work better for different kinds of surgical pain, I.e. Dilaudid used a lot for ortho surgeries.

Vistaril or Phenergan used in conjunction with narcotics as they help with nausea and also potentiate the effects of the narcotics.

Ambien? Normally not prescribed as narcotics generally have a sedative effect.
Valium?? No earthly clue. Not medically indicated for this type of surgery. EVER.

Usually a stool softener/laxative is given as narcotics are binding.

MM had his hand in this one. And why would Michelle need refills after only 8 days. These meds are usually prescribed in quantities to last until patient returns to office for post operative check. IMO IMPO

I can understand what you're saying Zuri and grasp you but, at the same time my (unfortunate) experience with all of these medications just relates to me they do not do it. While you could do it, I would say it's not done often at all. Oxyconton and Lortab? Sure, that makes sense. Oxyconton and Percocet? Sure, could still make sense. Of course Oxyconton and Dilaudid makes sense but Percoet and Lortab? That just doesn't make the same sense to me, know what I mean? It would be very unusual as both can and are used for moderate to severe pain, have very similar times to effectiveness and duration. Hope that makes sense?

The Vailum? I think that was to keep her calm simply due to the pain she was expected to experience. I recall the doc even mentioning this?

My unfortunate issues are chronic back pain due to work related injury and Trigeminal Neuralgia (lucky me lol) I won't question your knowledge Zuri as you're a nurse apparently? Im just a patient that likes to know what's going on lol I've got one of those minds like a sponge though and tend to retain things.

 

[Zuri]

Suffocation would have left evidence of such I've wondered if he held her face under the running faucet and that is why the water was bloody?

Water may have been bloody from either dried blood in her hair or incisional drainage. Just a guess. Also, as water (hypotonic) mixes with air in lungs as the alveoli are collapsing, the capillaries containing the blood cells lyse and bleeding from the lung tissue occurs. HTH

 

[Italy]

Prescribing these meds in concert is not unusual.
Percocet is given for acute pain in the immediate post op period, typically three days worth.
Vicodin is given for moderate pain, usually 3-7 days worth.
Prednisone was given for the swelling, probably in a small quantity and low dose. Not given in large quantities as it interferes with wound healing.

Different narcotics work better for different kinds of surgical pain, I.e. Dilaudid used a lot for ortho surgeries.

Vistaril or Phenergan used in conjunction with narcotics as they help with nausea and also potentiate the effects of the narcotics.

Ambien? Normally not prescribed as narcotics generally have a sedative effect.
Valium?? No earthly clue. Not medically indicated for this type of surgery. EVER.

Usually a stool softener/laxative is given as narcotics are binding.

MM had his hand in this one. And why would Michelle need refills after only 8 days. These meds are usually prescribed in quantities to last until patient returns to office for post operative check. IMO IMPO

Thanks. Good points and beneficial information. Destruction of the remaining pills and the inventory was part of the plan, I think.

I just read that if one crushes the tablets of a drug like Oxycontin, it loses its time-release properties and is absorbed all at once. A one-time dose of only 160mg of Oxycontin can be lethal to a person who has not built up a tolerance to it. Also, of course, there are significant contraindications to taking this drug (and others like it) in combination.

 

[Bravo]

If she was suffocated before being in the tub she would not have had any water in her lungs (no breathing in of water, already dead). I believe the EMT said she spit or coughed up water at one point, so she must have been breathing it in somewhere along the way.
Plus I assume this is something they would catch during the autopsy, they can tell if someone was dead before or after being found in/around water.

PS- see ETA below, lol.

And just to add it shows Marty did not perform CPR as he stated. He faked that too IMO.

 

[minor4th]

Ok here's what Dr Thompson testified about the medications:

1. For this type of facial surgery, he normally prescribes Vicodin (aka Lortab) for pain, Antibiotic, Ambien (7 pills), Steroid for swelling/inflammation and sometimes phenergan for nausea, and antibiotic eye ointment

2. For Michele he prescribed all of those normal medications

3. Prescribed phenergan (he said "10 pills") because Martin said she gets nauseous and anxious easily

4. In addition to the normal medications, he prescribed Percocet, Valium, and Lortab elixer

5. Prescribed Percocet and Valium - because Martin said wife didn't handle pain well and got very anxious and wanted to have all of these medications available for her

6. Prescribed Percocet pills instead of Lortab pills, but did prescribe Lortab elixer

7. Later says he prescribed phenergan suppositories at husband's request (and Percocet at husband's request)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=64djjLPbmKQ#t=1910

 

[Ina Cognito]

And just to add it shows Marty did not perform CPR as he stated. He faked that too IMO.

In my mind there is no way he was preforming CPR on Michele before the neighbor arrived. he claimed to the 911 dispatcher he was but Michele was still in the tub, Mrs Daniels (neighbor) never saw him on the phone so he was on the phone before her arrival. No way he was doing CPR, that was a lie. I just hope the jury caught that but I'm sure that the state will point it out on summation.