UT - Susan Powell, 28, West Valley City, 6 Dec 2009 #7

[GrandmaTo4]

Not if she went to BYU. I personally know this. It's a great school and the students there are fantastic....but it's not the typical college campus. Not too many colleges have an honor code that regulates behavior off campus. I know many a parent who sent their daughters there in an effort to keep them innocent. Oh sure stuff goes on, but if the school gets wind of it you are outta there. I've personally seen that too. Their off campus housing is strictly regulated as well. In many cases the rules are more strict than what they had living at home with mom and dad.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brigham_Young_University_Honor_Code

I totally agree, SuziQ. I didn't know that Kiirsti received both her A.S. and B.A. degrees from LDS institutions.

Besides, if she and John were both attending BYU with 3 small children, their typical college type experiences would have been EXTREMELY limited. Babies have a way of putting the kibosh on almost everything.

 

[DomCasual]

Not if she went to BYU. I personally know this. It's a great school and the students there are fantastic....but it's not the typical college campus. Not too many colleges have an honor code that regulates behavior off campus. I know many a parent who sent their daughters there in an effort to keep them innocent. Oh sure stuff goes on, but if the school gets wind of it you are outta there. I've personally seen that too. Their off campus housing is strictly regulated as well. In many cases the rules are more strict than what they had living at home with mom and dad.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brigham_Young_University_Honor_Code

Here's the thing about BYU, Suzi. It is a unique college experience. It is sheltered. But that being said, I hope my son gets the grades in high school to be able to go there (it's gotten to be really difficult to get in). In my opinion, it's a great school, and a great college experience.

You will be thrown out if you "party." You will be thrown out if you have non-married sex (although a lot of kids there still do). Yet, my years at BYU were some of the best years of my life. I'm glad I learned there that I didn't need some of those things to be happy. It was a great lesson I've drawn on in other phases of my adult life.

I used to have this thing about living in Utah. I was raised outside the LDS Church in Denver. I always thought that I'd never be interested in raising my kids in Utah. I almost got divorced, rather than living here - but that's a whole different story. (In the end, I made a HUGE concession for my wife - as a controlling, Mormon husband, it almost caused my head to pop right off my torso. ) I always just thought that I'd want my kids to be outside a sheltered environment. In some ways, I still think that - at least in theory. In practice, it's a different story.

Living here now, I have changed a little. I see nephews and nieces that live elsewhere, and I am saddened by what I see them have to face at school. Early teens are in such a precarious spot - they're old enough to make life-altering decisions; but too young to understand the repercussions of said decisions. I don't want my kids living in a box. But at the same time, I don't see anything positive about my young nephews and nieces facing the things they constantly seem to face in places less sheltered than Utah. Life is long, and they'll have to make those decisions eventually. When they're kids, I want the blinders of their innocence to be removed incrementally. I think a lot of kids have those blinders taken off too early and too fast. It's not that kids here don't face some of the same things they might face elsewhere. But generally speaking, there does seem to be a greater prevalence of old-fashioned values here.

Anyway, that's a tangent. But it's something I've thought about ad nauseum as an adult.

 

[gwenabob]

I totally agree, SuziQ. I didn't know that Kiirsti received both her A.S. and B.A. degrees from LDS institutions.

Besides, if she and John were both attending BYU with 3 small children, their typical college type experiences would have been EXTREMELY limited. Babies have a way of putting the kibosh on almost everything.

I want to make clear that I have nothing against Kiirsi. I am sure she is a talented, intelligent woman, a wonderful mother and wife and daughter and sister. I just want people to understand the kind of world she comes from. It is a very innocent place that probably does not understand the kind of pain and suffering Susan was going through.

Susan grew vegetables to feed the family. Among the Mormons, it is in no way unusual to have a garden. The church has recommended it for decades. No one would think twice about a mom gardening for the health of her family. Josh's sister knew why, but it wouldn't necessarily raise a red flag to anyone else.

Susan rode her bike to work. Some of her friends asked her about it, but she waived it off and said she needed the exercise. Lots of people ride bikes these days. Portland, where I live, is the bike capital and all hip young people are doing it. That alone would not waive a red flag.

There are lots of other examples. One person might have seen one thing. Another a different thing. It wasn't until they all put their stories together that it started to form a complete picture. It didn't help that Josh was obviously pressuring Susan not to talk about things with her friends and family.

This sort of scenario is not unusual in DV cases. It is very common for close friends and family not to understand the full extent of the abuse. The abuser manipulates it that way.

Kiirsi might have been a great friend to Susan, but because of the type of sheltered life she has led she may not have picked up on the signs. Susan may not have really understood herself what was happening to her until it was too late.

 

[GrandmaTo4]

Even if she went to a secular college, lots of fundamentalist Baptist or other Protestant kids, Muslims, conservative Catholics go to secular colleges but manage to keep to a certain circle of friends. By choosing certain majors, as you point out, they can restrict the classes they take, and frat parties are optional, not required. Similarly, many "highly educated" Mormons with graduate degrees from big, important schools in the East manage to have little interaction outside of their wife and church friends.

It's not surprising to me at all that Susan, like all of us, had a sense about who she could tell certain things to. We shouldn't forget that some of the things coming out were witnessed, not just told. It must be painful for Kiirsti to realize that her close friend could not trust her with the darkest goings on of her marriage - and therefore sort of insulting. If you're the "best friend," the knowledge that there was a lot you didn't know is hard to process, and you might decide not to process it but to deny it. That would just be your coping strategy.

(bbm)

Excellent point, dovebar!
It explains several things that have puzzled me to no end -- especially the defense/support that Josh still receives from some of Susan's friends. Though I think their denial is waaay more powerful than it logically should be, I can tolerate it better when I understand it's all about their coping-survival. Many of Susan's friends must be tormented with inner conflict. That's sad. _ For their own sake, I hope their denial lessens with time.

Excellent, informative post!

 

[GrandmaTo4]

I want to make clear that I have nothing against Kiirsi. I am sure she is a talented, intelligent woman, a wonderful mother and wife and daughter and sister. I just want people to understand the kind of world she comes from. It is a very innocent place that probably does not understand the kind of pain and suffering Susan was going through.

Susan grew vegetables to feed the family. Among the Mormons, it is in no way unusual to have a garden. The church has recommended it for decades. No one would think twice about a mom gardening for the health of her family. Josh's sister knew why, but it wouldn't necessarily raise a red flag to anyone else.

Susan rode her bike to work. Some of her friends asked her about it, but she waived it off and said she needed the exercise. Lots of people ride bikes these days. Portland, where I live, is the bike capital and all hip young people are doing it. That alone would not waive a red flag.

There are lots of other examples. One person might have seen one thing. Another a different thing. It wasn't until they all put their stories together that it started to form a complete picture. It didn't help that Josh was obviously pressuring Susan not to talk about things with her friends and family.

This sort of scenario is not unusual in DV cases. It is very common for close friends and family not to understand the full extent of the abuse. The abuser manipulates it that way.

Kiirsi might have been a great friend to Susan, but because of the type of sheltered life she has led she may not have picked up on the signs. Susan may not have really understood herself what was happening to her until it was too late.

(bbm)

Hey gwenabob, you don't have to convince me! I have never once thought you had anything against Kiirsti -- or didn't believe she was an intelligent, wonderful woman. I appreciate knowing more about Kiirsti's educational background and lifestyle. It helps me to better understand what was at first a totally mystifying and frustrating set of statements, actions and inactions.

I cannot imagine anyone would think you were speaking negatively of Kiirsti. You simply stated some truthful facts that were not at all disparaging.

 

[Bartleby]

(bbm)

Hey gwenabob, you don't have to convince me! I have never once thought you had anything against Kiirsti -- or didn't believe she was an intelligent, wonderful woman. I appreciate knowing more about Kiirsti's educational background and lifestyle. It helps me to better understand what was at first a totally mystifying and frustrating set of statements, actions and inactions.

I cannot imagine anyone would think you were speaking negatively of Kiirsti. You simply stated some truthful facts that were not at all disparaging.

Kiirsi, not Kiirsti.

 

[dovebar]

Susan grew vegetables to feed the family. Among the Mormons, it is in no way unusual to have a garden. The church has recommended it for decades. No one would think twice about a mom gardening for the health of her family. Josh's sister knew why, but it wouldn't necessarily raise a red flag to anyone else.

Susan rode her bike to work. Some of her friends asked her about it, but she waived it off and said she needed the exercise. Lots of people ride bikes these days. Portland, where I live, is the bike capital and all hip young people are doing it. That alone would not waive a red flag.

There are lots of other examples. One person might have seen one thing. Another a different thing. It wasn't until they all put their stories together that it started to form a complete picture. It didn't help that Josh was obviously pressuring Susan not to talk about things with her friends and family.

This sort of scenario is not unusual in DV cases. It is very common for close friends and family not to understand the full extent of the abuse. The abuser manipulates it that way.

Kiirsi might have been a great friend to Susan, but because of the type of sheltered life she has led she may not have picked up on the signs. Susan may not have really understood herself what was happening to her until it was too late.

This is really profound, I think, and something we need to understand in order to avoid more Susan Powells. A lot of abuse is hiding in plain sight this way.

And definitely there is a strain of people not quite believing that someone could kill them. They believe enough to make a will and write a letter that they wouldn't commit suicide, but they also can't quite believe that something completely out of their control could happen.

Somehow we need to find better ways of convincing them otherwise. I'm not sure what that will take. It seems as though there are multiple psychological barriers that we need to find a way to address.

 

[grayjay]

Yes, profound, dovebar, and I see that this might be like it is with drugs, that once one is addicted it may be too late. The bonding is strong, which is the intention of all involved in the industry of marriage, and it's sealed by nature with that oxytocin as well.

A woman who is at retirement age tells friends that her husband, a world respected research biochemist, gets very angry and tells her that he has a way to kill her that nobody can detect and he will get away with, and she stays in that home and they fight about his philandering for another year? I think we're lucky that more bad things aren't happening, given this type of misplaced confidence.

What to do about it, I'm not sure.

 

[GrandmaTo4]

Kiirsi, not Kiirsti.

Oh oh, I'm so sorry. :blushing: I think I have been misspelling her name every time I wrote it. Thanks Bartleby. I'll be sure to spell it correctly if I write it again.

 

[DomCasual]

Did they know about THESE things? >>>>>>

How about Susan being forced to ride a bicycle 14 miles on a busy road back and forth to work?

How about Susan not being able to buy fruits and vegetables for her small growing boys?

How about Susan receiving a belligerent tongue-lashing from Josh -- for buying shoes for Charlie and Braden when their shoes were outgrown?

How about Josh undermining Susan's reasonable and proper discipline of the boys?

How about Josh attempting to bribe the boys to NOT go to church with Susan?

How about Josh making Susan and the boys WALK back and forth to church in subfreezing weather when the van was sitting in the garage unused?

How about yelling at Susan to "SHUT-UP" for no good reason, in front of their friends?

How about Josh refusing to allow Susan to have a set of car keys?

How about Josh refusing Susan the use the home computer?

How about Josh changing the pin number on the bank accounts so Susan couldn't have access -- even though it was Susan who earned the majority of the family's money -- and who earned ALL the money during plenty of their marriage?

How about the one time (at least) that Josh got PHYSICALLY ABUSIVE with Susan?

Those incidents did NOT come from the journals at Wells Fargo -- they came from Susan's friends and family from personally witnessing them or first hand information.

As far as I can tell, the only person who cared enough about Susan and had big enough cojones to advise her to kick selfish-abuser-Josh to the curb was Tim Peterson. He's the ONLY one of the bunch who has my total respect and admiration!

Perhaps if ALL the rest of them hadn't been so MALE-SUPPORTIVE Susan would be alive today!

So, with all due respect...

Let's say they did know at least some of those things. Let's say they did know the reason she was growing vegetables. They did know the reason she rode a bike to work. Let's say that they not only knew how controlling he was, but they even witnessed some of his behavior first-hand - maybe not anything physical, but the verbal abuse.

I'm not asking this rhetorically. I'm curious about what you, in that situation, would do. For people in that situation who have witnessed something like this with a friend, what would you suggest they do to help matters?

 

[SuziQ]

Here's the thing about BYU, Suzi. It is a unique college experience. It is sheltered. But that being said, I hope my son gets the grades in high school to be able to go there (it's gotten to be really difficult to get in). In my opinion, it's a great school, and a great college experience.

You will be thrown out if you "party." You will be thrown out if you have non-married sex (although a lot of kids there still do). Yet, my years at BYU were some of the best years of my life. I'm glad I learned there that I didn't need some of those things to be happy. It was a great lesson I've drawn on in other phases of my adult life.

I used to have this thing about living in Utah. I was raised outside the LDS Church in Denver. I always thought that I'd never be interested in raising my kids in Utah. I almost got divorced, rather than living here - but that's a whole different story. (In the end, I made a HUGE concession for my wife - as a controlling, Mormon husband, it almost caused my head to pop right off my torso. ) I always just thought that I'd want my kids to be outside a sheltered environment. In some ways, I still think that - at least in theory. In practice, it's a different story.

Living here now, I have changed a little. I see nephews and nieces that live elsewhere, and I am saddened by what I see them have to face at school. Early teens are in such a precarious spot - they're old enough to make life-altering decisions; but too young to understand the repercussions of said decisions. I don't want my kids living in a box. But at the same time, I don't see anything positive about my young nephews and nieces facing the things they constantly seem to face in places less sheltered than Utah. Life is long, and they'll have to make those decisions eventually. When they're kids, I want the blinders of their innocence to be removed incrementally. I think a lot of kids have those blinders taken off too early and too fast. It's not that kids here don't face some of the same things they might face elsewhere. But generally speaking, there does seem to be a greater prevalence of old-fashioned values here.

Anyway, that's a tangent. But it's something I've thought about ad nauseum as an adult.

It's the school I would like my kids to go to. They might actually get into the learning experience instead of partying that goes on at most colleges. I'm not LDS, but I am glad I raised my kids in Utah.

 

[omegagal]

It appears this counselor was highly incompetent. Of course we do not know how much Susan told this TRAINED PROFESSIONAL, but if they had the proper education, they would have been able to recognize the RED FLAGS of domestic abuse Susan was forced to suffer through.

This counselor certainly advised Susan poorly. Rather than advise Susan to leave Josh, they encourage her to set goals/ultimatums for a man who was clearly demanding that he be the supreme master of his home to the point where his children had to wear shoes that were too small, Susan had to bike 14 miles round trip to work, etc.? GIVE ME A BREAK!

A lot of blame should be cast towards this counselor for the outcome of the Susan and Josh Powell union!

Many "Thanks" to you on this one... you have hit on a very important aspect of this case...

 

[omegagal]

sigh. Pickie, no, that is complete balderdash!!!!!

Sorry that is NOT balderdash... the man has to bring the woman across the veil....

 

[gwenabob]

Sorry that is NOT balderdash... the man has to bring the woman across the veil....

And if he can't someone else will. No woman would be denied her just reward because her husband didn't do right by her.

 

[omegagal]

Regarding Susan and Josh Powell's counseling services

12 Reasons Why Couples Counseling is Not Recommended When Domestic Violence is Present:http://unrighteous-dominion.com/?p=105

 

[gwenabob]

Regarding Susan and Josh Powell's counseling services

12 Reasons Why Couples Counseling is Not Recommended When Domestic Violence is Present:http://unrighteous-dominion.com/?p=105

I totally agree. How could an abused person feel free to talk about it with the abuser sitting right next to them? It defies logic.

 

[omegagal]

And if he can't someone else will. No woman would be denied her just reward because her husband didn't do right by her.

If she was not worthy to have a husband someone else will:

LDS Apostle Erastus Snow preached the following on Sunday, Oct. 4, 1857:

Do the women, when they pray, remember their husbands?... Do you uphold your husband before God as your lord? "What!—my husband to be my lord?" I ask, Can you get into the celestial kingdom without him? Have any of you been there? You will remember that you never got into the celestial kingdom [during the temple ceremony] without the aid of your husband. If you did, it was because your husband was away, and some one had to act proxy for him. No woman will get into the celestial kingdom, except her husband receives her, if she is worthy to have a husband; and if not, somebody will receive her as a servant. (Journal of Discourses, vol. 5, p. 291)

 

[gwenabob]

You will note that was written in 1857.

 

[AlexisFresca]

Hmmm ... is 'Journal of Discourses' one of the books in the Book of Mormon? Another thing that comes to mind, is that in Christianity there is an endless debate of quoting OT scripture -vs- NT scripture to back up your debate topic at the time. So even if this was taught in 1857, would it still be applicable in the same way OT scripture is? Does that make sense?

As far as Susan and who she confided what in, I think its fair to say that we show different sides of ourselves to different people, the ones we know will accept certain things about us without judging, or like in the case of life experiences (Kiirsi and Susan) it stands to reason to confide in the person who seems to understand the best. I am actually closer to Mrs Outlaw than I am my own mom, in that I can talk to her about anything while with my mom I get lectures, unsolicited advice and so on. Depending on the persons or the problem, I will confide in some from various backgrounds (but can still relate) because different POV's are also interesting in someone thinking of something/perspective someone else hasn't. I think being open to different POV's can be beneficial if they are the right personalities. Does that make sense?

 

[grayjay]

You will note that was written in 1857.

LOL.

A man we know (not mormon) says he shouldn't have to pay spousal support for the time since he and his wife separated, because his estranged wife has not been performing her wifely duties during this time. He says this at a table with their two female attorneys plus several other professionals involved in the settlement of their finances.

We decided to surf for the term, and learned that up until the end of the 1800's such a thing existed and the law was changed. As far as I know this document has to be considered as quaint as that concept.

Great grandma told us about a time when couples had to sleep with a board between them in the bed, too. She was a Methodist.

Oh, right. And should we bring up polygamy about now, too then? I think that's also long gone, except among a few backwards cults and it's illegal?