WA - 3 children, ages 13, 9 and 7, among 5 killed inside Fall City home, 15 y.o. in custody - 21 October 2024

[ChatteringBirds]

I'm not familiar with the US laws, but forcing your religion on another human is genereally seen as a breach of human rights, AFAIK.

Many strongly-religious parents around the world do not give their minor children a choice regarding whether to participate in their religion. Children don't have the same legal rights as adults regarding religion, IMO. (Not saying I agree with that, because I don't. But just that that's how our society runs.)

 

[Knox]

Most likely because she wanted to influence her daughter to change her behavior for the better (and for the highest benefit of the children) but without getting her in legal trouble in doing so. I'd guess most loving and concerned parents can identify with this wholeheartedly.

I can absolutely agree with what you’re saying in theory. But in this case, how are you able to determine Sarah’s behavior was wrong and needed correction? Maybe there’s some information I haven’t seen yet.

 

[OneLove]

I can absolutely agree with what you’re saying in theory. But in this case, how are you able to determine Sarah’s behavior was wrong and needed correction? Maybe there’s some information I haven’t seen yet.

Due to the reclusiveneas of the family and isolation from social contacts in general, there's not much we can use to assess Sarah's behavior other than a mother who called her out on it and a son who slaughtered her for it, allegedly.

 

[Charlot123]

I can absolutely agree with what you’re saying in theory. But in this case, how are you able to determine Sarah’s behavior was wrong and needed correction? Maybe there’s some information I haven’t seen yet.

I have two different views of the situation.

1) the boy was raised in extremely rigid religious household, far exceeding from what can be expected from the “mainstream religious family”. That, plus isolation, caused PTSD and the boy felt “caged”.

Or,

2) the family was like any other, maybe on the “religious end” of our broad Washingtonian spectrum, but nothing unusual. The perpetrator had some mental issues which shaped his actions.

I think that the truth is somewhere “in between”, tbh. And that the perpetrator himself had issues. However, things like this occasionally run in the family, and I suspect it might be the case. Whose side, then? Sarah is at a slight disadvantage here, because she is dead, and as the mother homeschooling her children she is the one under the scope as she spent more time with the kids. Plus, we heard a lot about her from her mother. Mark was the provider who worked in Seattle, a transplant from another state so we know way less about him.

Either way, I don’t think that we should be discussing only the mother’s role here.

 

[Sundog]

I have two different views of the situation.

1) the boy was raised in extremely rigid religious household, far exceeding from what can be expected from the “mainstream religious family”. That, plus isolation, caused PTSD and the boy felt “caged”.

Or,

2) the family was like any other, maybe on the “religious end” of our broad Washingtonian spectrum, but nothing unusual. The perpetrator had some mental issues which shaped his actions.

I think that the truth is somewhere “in between”, tbh. And that the perpetrator himself had issues. However, things like this occasionally run in the family, and I suspect it might be the case. Whose side, then? Sarah is at a slight disadvantage here, because she is dead, and as the mother homeschooling her children she is the one under the scope as she spent more time with the kids. Plus, we heard a lot about her from her mother. Mark was the provider who worked in Seattle, a transplant from another state so we know way less about him.

Either way, I don’t think that we should be discussing only the mother’s role here.

Sarah, the mother, is a victim, as is her husband. The kid is the murderer. He annihilated his entire family (although one sibling escaped after feigning death). Kids who aren't happy with the family rules leave home at 18 or run away before then and would be known to children's services and/or their school. The mother may have not liked her daughter's family lifestyle. That's her problem.

 

[Sundog]

Due to the reclusiveneas of the family and isolation from social contacts in general, there's not much we can use to assess Sarah's behavior other than a mother who called her out on it and a son who slaughtered her for it, allegedly.

Only neighbors and the estranged mother have stated that the family was reclusive and isolated from others. They may have been very socially active with their church family and other families that shared the same values, just not in their immediate neighborhood. That's very common, and also many home schooled young people who attend university are active with other home schooled kids, forming a community of learners. None of this is unusual.

 

[Charlot123]

Our personal opinions might influence the story but let us tease out what we can do.

- isolating the kids and not allowing them to play with anyone but the members of own church/community might be a problem. To evaluate your own kid’s development, you want to observe them in a group of peers. Mostly, you can see if your kid would make it in the bigger world, or fail. (the first recommendation for neurodivergent kids is to be exposed to normotypical ones as much as possible. Not about this boy specifically, I don’t know him).

- People settle in expensive areas in order to have access to good public schools with good resources. (Sometimes even a daycare might alert the parent about potential problems.)

- Regardless of their views, did the lack of social exposure contribute into parents missing a lot about their son? Consider this, if the parents expect their child to spend his whole life among the members of his church, it is theoretically possible, but a person can eventually fail living amidst own (very supportive) church as well.

- if paranoia and mistrust of doctors expanded beyond COVID issues, then even own group’s concerns about the kid’s behavior and demeanor may not translate into bringing the kid to see, at least, a therapist. A good and knowledgeable Christian therapist who practiced in the area for years will notice the same traits and recommend the same things.

- I understand, MH came from TX, a state with a different culture, but leaving a gun to the older son while unaware of the boy’s issues culminated in the tragedy.

I feel that it was not the boy’s bad choice. It is something undiagnosed and untreated. And, by oversheltering their kids from “external dangers” the parents missed the danger inside. Isolation cut off all feedback about potential problems.

This being said, the Hs did not isolate themselves. (MH worked in Seattle and was successful). But they chose not to send their kids to public schools and private Christian schools (we have very good ones) might have been expensive. Coop, of course, was not up to par.

 

[Charlot123]

Sarah, the mother, is a victim, as is her husband. The kid is the murderer. He annihilated his entire family (although one sibling escaped after feigning death). Kids who aren't happy with the family rules leave home at 18 or run away before then and would be known to children's services and/or their school. The mother may have not liked her daughter's family lifestyle. That's her problem.

@Sundog, the choice was between the house on the lake and proper education and socialization for their kids. Their choice, obviously, backfired. I think it might have been about the money more that anything else. Living in a neighborhood with normal schools would mean, much smaller house. Or much more resources. Or moving to a farther place. To live in most decent neighborhoods demands two incomes and it means, COVID vaccination being a must. So lots of factors, one linking to another, and the question, what do I sacrifice to raise a family? - demands a complicated answer. Ultimately, that a mistake was made is obvious because the family is dead. What would have been the best choice? Is an important question. Maybe, limit the amount of kids. Obviously, something was missed in their plan.

<modsnip: off topic>

 

[OneLove]

Do we know the size of their church? That might give an indication of the size of the group of kids his age he was only allowed to communicate with. I'd guess that, due to their remote location, even with a few kids his age at church, there were not a lot of social occasions with his own age group he was able to participate in. And he likely had responsibilities at home tending to the needs of the younger kids. That alone can be very taxing and frustrating for a teen that age. Here's an example: as a teen, I was expected to know where each of my 4 younger siblings were after school, see that they did their chores, do my own chores, take them and pick them up from basketball practice, choir practice, scouts, cheerleaders, band practices, etc,start dinner, sometimes help them with their homework while mine went undone, and babysit them when my parents went out. I could not participate in extracurricular activities of my own because I was needed to see that the youngers could do their's. Yet we lived in a city neighborhood with excellent schools and I had friends my age I could see, do weekend activities with, talk on the phone with, see at school, spend the night with occasionally, and share our complaints with as a pressure relief valve. ~ This teen seemingly had none of that and it seems was denied the one kid close enough to possibly serve as relief.

There are many unanswered questions about his life, expectations, and responsibilities, and I hope we eventually get a more complete picture.

 

[sunflowermomma]

Meh. The family doesn't seem any more extreme than the garden variety religious homeschoolers you see on social media every day. seems like a flimsy excuse after the "my brother killed the family because he watched p**n" excuse failed. JMO

North Bend is essentially a suburb of Seattle these days. The kid was not geographically isolated.

 

[Seattle1]

Seems to me the defense strategy is working.

They've made allegations about the environment and the parenting style the defendant was raised in, and credited some of these complaints to the maternal grandmother, allegedly!

But the grandmother is represented by counsel, and there's no reason for the defense to cite that she made these claims, with a disclaimer, unless she did not!

IMO, the defense is putting out hearsay from the defendant himself to the media, and hopes to use the same excuses and allegations as to the reasons why the Court should delay its decision on the decline hearing for another year or until September 2026.

We also know the defense is trying to throw the surviving child witness under the bus here-- discredit the child's claim as to who she saw enter her room and shoot her, and the rest of her family.

Granted, it takes time to manufacture contrary theories to fit or discredit the evidence, but delaying the trial by what would likely be another 24 months is not justice for the survivor, victims, and the family of the victims.

And if no outside school records exist for the shooter, delaying the decline hearing another year isn't going to make school records suddenly appear. MOO

 

[OneLove]

North Bend is essentially a suburb of Seattle these days. The kid was not geographically isolated.

North Bend being a suburb is a different matter altogether than the location of their *house* being remote. For a teen not yet licensed to drive, how exactly and when was he allowed to be in the metropolitan areas of North Bend where he might find other teens to socialize with? Did he *walk* to meet up with others to see movies? Did he walk from his house to restaurants or coffee houses or parks to meet-up with other kids his age? Did he walk to the library or to shops other teens liked to go to? Its looking much more likely that his mother intentionally saw to it that he did *not* get to do these things he most likely knew other kids did get to do. And at his age, most kids are interested in the opposite sex to a more or less degree. Did he feel *deprived* of all these things? Of course it's no excuse to murder but there IS no excuse for any murder ever yet they happen. Understanding the reasons why they happen is vital.

 

[Sundog]

It's possible that if he had gone to public school that he would have been a school shooter. He premeditated, planned, and carried out a mass murder and further planned deceit to frame his brother. None of this bodes well for rehabilitation, I think he will face adult court and a prison sentence, at least after he turns 21 and is out of the juvenile court system if they decide to do a combined plan (juvenile court until 21 and then transfer to adult court).

 

[OneLove]

It's possible that if he had gone to public school that he would have been a school shooter. He premeditated, planned, and carried out a mass murder and further planned deceit to frame his brother. None of this bodes well for rehabilitation, I think he will face adult court and a prison sentence, at least after he turns 21 and is out of the juvenile court system if they decide to do a combined plan (juvenile court until 21 and then transfer to adult court).

Yes, it's true he could have been a school shooter just as every public school student *could* be a school shooter. Every home school student *could* be a family annihilator. Thankfully, whichever, whenever, and wherever, we always examine what factors lead to that. As far back as I can remember school shooters and family annihilators, there's *always* been apparent pathology that only came to light and general knowledge *after* the tragic act. Hopefully, going forward, we can do better at prevention but only if we can spot the clues and intervene in a healthy and helpful way. Since this kid's contacts were almost exclusively his churched people, I'd be so very interested in not only what those adults observed but what the teens his age knew and observed. Did anyone know he needed intervention other than his grandmother?

 

[sunflowermomma]

North Bend being a suburb is a different matter altogether than the location of their *house* being remote. For a teen not yet licensed to drive, how exactly and when was he allowed to be in the metropolitan areas of North Bend where he might find other teens to socialize with? Did he *walk* to meet up with others to see movies? Did he walk from his house to restaurants or coffee houses or parks to meet-up with other kids his age? Did he walk to the library or to shops other teens liked to go to? Its looking much more likely that his mother intentionally saw to it that he did *not* get to do these things he most likely knew other kids did get to do. And at his age, most kids are interested in the opposite sex to a more or less degree. Did he feel *deprived* of all these things? Of course it's no excuse to murder but there IS no excuse for any murder ever yet they happen.

That's why I said "geographically isolated" and not "socially isolated". He wasn't on a compound in Nebraska with nothing around him for miles. I was not commenting on the social aspect, which is why I said "geographically".

 

[girlhasnoname]

It's suspect to me that GMa is now basically throwing her Daughter under the bus. Never heard of those concerns or complaints until the killer decided to annihilate his entire family.

I've seen many pictures of the whole family together participating in activities, vacations, etc. It was genuine happiness on their faces. Something changed in the killer's life, brain or whatever.

To blame the parents for providing a beautiful home, food, essentials and non essentials and even being 'too strict' which caused him to snap and forced him to kill them all (except the sister who managed to escape) is wrong and ridiculous IMO.

There were no documented calls to CPS for abuse that we know of, and being home schooled in today's times is not unusual. The COVID situation really kicked that up big time, and I don't think the kids or the public school system have fully recovered from that. My neighbor is a school teacher yet she home schools her own daughter.

I wish more parents today were stricter with their children. I get tired of seeing the young and pre teen kids on their cell phones like it's an umbilical cord, hanging on TIKTOK, Instagram and other sites that promote dangerous challenges and unhealthy content. Many of them are rude, entitled with no socialization skills and family interaction whatsoever. They literally will text from the next room verses having a conversation. It's insane to me.

No, I do not blame these parents and will not unless or until information is made available that paints a horror show that left him no other alternative (one doesn't exist for this type of action). The entire family (Dad, Mom, siblings) are dead by his hand except the surviving sister. Why?

JMO

 

[Lusitana]

There is a surviving sister. It doesn't matter what anyone thinks, she knows what happened the day her brother tried to murder her and she knows the home life she had with her parents until this happened.

 

[Knox]

Due to the reclusiveneas of the family and isolation from social contacts in general, there's not much we can use to assess Sarah's behavior other than a mother who called her out on it and a son who slaughtered her for it, allegedly.

That's exactly the point I'm making. We're hearing information from a few limited sources whose point of view could be biased.

I'm going to continue to advocate for the victims in this case. Regardless of whether Mark & Sarah were strict, had narrow world views and restricted who their children interacted with, ect.. They didn't deserve to be murdered.

We have no idea what this young man's motive was for killing his entire family. Though the defense is clearly trying to blame his parents. Now, I'm not sure he would ever reveal the truth, but will stick with what his legal team is advising him to do.

Unfortunately the surviving victim in this case, his sister. Is put in a position where she will have to tell the story of this families life. I can't begin to imagine how she is dealing with the trauma.

 

[ChatteringBirds]

Did he feel *deprived* of all these things

IMO it doesn't matter if he felt deprived of a normal social life, dating, etc. That doesn't mean you murder one person after another, feel no remorse, and try to blame someone else.

What I do agree with is there is a reason teenagers aren't allowed to buy guns.

This is all about his brain, choices, and lack of bonding with his family, not his parents' legal parental choices.

Except for one thing-- the weapon they thought he should have access to. Ugh. My opinions.

 

[Sundog]

It's suspect to me that GMa is now basically throwing her Daughter under the bus. Never heard of those concerns or complaints until the killer decided to annihilate his entire family.

I've seen many pictures of the whole family together participating in activities, vacations, etc. It was genuine happiness on their faces. Something changed in the killer's life, brain or whatever.

To blame the parents for providing a beautiful home, food, essentials and non essentials and even being 'too strict' which caused him to snap and forced him to kill them all (except the sister who managed to escape) is wrong and ridiculous IMO.

There were no documented calls to CPS for abuse that we know of, and being home schooled in today's times is not unusual. The COVID situation really kicked that up big time, and I don't think the kids or the public school system have fully recovered from that. My neighbor is a school teacher yet she home schools her own daughter.

I wish more parents today were stricter with their children. I get tired of seeing the young and pre teen kids on their cell phones like it's an umbilical cord, hanging on TIKTOK, Instagram and other sites that promote dangerous challenges and unhealthy content. Many of them are rude, entitled with no socialization skills and family interaction whatsoever. They literally will text from the next room verses having a conversation. It's insane to me.

No, I do not blame these parents and will not unless or until information is made available that paints a horror show that left him no other alternative (one doesn't exist for this type of action). The entire family (Dad, Mom, siblings) are dead by his hand except the surviving sister. Why?

JMO

Well said.