WA WA - D.B. Cooper hijacking mystery, 24 Nov 1971 - #2

[leftcoast]

I agree. If Ted is innocent you don't "live" with anything. Why isn't he calling the FBI and adhering to that oath he took?

That is what I want to know.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

H-bach even admitted to us that that there is about a 1% chance that Ted is Cooper. Even a higher chance that he planned the caper. So, why didn't he call the bureau in 2001?

The more I try to sum up this "investigation" in a single sentence, the more I realize it just can't be done. Even if Ted is innocent, I'm still thinking WTF?

Until I'm convinced otherwise (and I could be) I see this "investigation" like a map of a mine field. Instead of mine icons indicating where the mines are there are little TM icons. All you do is look busy and stay away from the mines, and you make extra sure others do as well. Never surrender the case and continue steering, even in retirement, that way the little house of "cards" will never blow away. But if a breeze were to topple a portion (2001), like the domino effect that could ensue, the mere mention or suggestion could trigger...well...headlights in the eyes of a deer.

OD

I agree. Why did he steer away from TM?

Why didn't H-bach at least do a financial, work history, residence history, talk to his ex-wife, lessor of the plane, neighbors at Donald, the people who called in his name as the hijacker, his probation officer, the flight attendants, etc.?

Explain this to me. Why would a FBI agent think that a convicted felon would give up his holiday to "assist" the fBI? This, the same guy, who was "kicked" out of the airport because of h-bach.

Another thing. While the plane was circling over Seattle, didn't H-bach at least once think of Ted, and say hey, maybe I should call him to a) make sure it isn't him on that plane,
b) talk to Ted about skydiving, where he would jump, and if he had any chutes available
c) see if Ted had any ideas of who might be the hijacker

Makes me wonder how close of a relationship H-bach had, or was he trying to keep TM out of discussions? I just dont' get it.

Especially, since TM was the only rigger and skydiving instructor in Portland at the time, per the 1971 yellow pages.

Why didn't H-bach think ahead while the hijacking was going on?

I know OD, believes there is more to the story, and I haven't ruled that out.

If H-bach was so familar with TM, why didn't he think of him during the hijacking?

TM sure did think of him. One has to wonder why TM "insisted" on talking to H-bach? What was so important that no other agent would do?

This case is a WTF. It's funny, it went from being a "mystery", to just another case, within about 2 months of "proper" investigation.

Even the "head" of the Portland office, Julius Matteson, when inspecting the flight pattern, and the area Cooper was thought to have jumped, was quoted as saying, "it would be a safe drop, there are plenty of ranchettes in the area, and two designated skydiving dropzones right on V-23, not far from the projected spot Cooper jumped", he also said that if the guy knew what he was doing, it would have not been that difficult of a jump.

Did H-bach get this memo?

I want to know. Was Julius Matteson, the head of the Portland FBI office, aware of TM, and did he sign off on not investigating TM since he called in at 10pm? I think not, but, if he was, one does have to wonder.

left

 

[Niner]

Last edited by rightcoast : 06-10-2007 at 07:40 PM. Reason: don't want the unmentionable one to find this thread again and ruin it or get it closed down

okay.... what did I miss?? Who's trying to shut down this thread????? :waitasec:

 

[leftcoast]

okay.... what did I miss?? Who's trying to shut down this thread????? :waitasec:

Nobody is.

I have no idea why he mentioned that. :waitasec:

Maybe he thought that Part 1 was closed for a reason. Part 1 was closed because it was too large, and eventually it slows down everyone's computer.

left

 

[leftcoast]

Back to Cooper:

Let's think about this case with no bias at all toward Teddy.

If Cooper really wanted to go to Mexico City, like he told the crew in Seattle, then why did he divert the plane to Seattle instead of, say, Los Angeles, or San Francisco.

Plus, he would have been closer to Mexico, and the plane would have had range, had more options for banks, skydiving centers, etc.

I'll tell you why. Because Cooper wanted to divert the plane to Seattle, circle for 2 hours, get the money, chutes, and head down v-23 and jump "exactly" where he jumped.

How did Cooper know that "sport" parachutes would be available the day before Thanksgiving, on a cold, rainy day, at 4 pm. Maybe he was a psychic, but, didn't he take a chance if the only rigger who possessed sport chutes was out of town for the holiday.

There are chutes available in every major city, but, very few. In 1971, there was only one "rigger" in Portland. We all know who that was.

Think about it. IF Cooper had simply circled around Portland, demanded "sport" parachutes, money, etc, from Portland, guess who the FBI would have called first?

You got it. That was the beauty of the plan. Put a tough deadline on getting the chutes. Cooper only gave the FBI one and a half hours to get the money and chutes, not enough time to get chutes from Spokane, or Portland. What if EC was out of town, then what?

Certainly, Cooper didn't plan his heist without knowing where the FBI would obtain chutes at such a late time of the day.

Cooper "must have" known that EC or one of his employees would be in town or available.

As a matter of fact, Cooper was so confident he would be able to secure "sport" chutes in Seattle, that he 'turned down" military chutes from McChord. Supposedly, the military chutes would open immediately and some suggest were static line chutes. Funny that H-bach thought Cooper was not a skydiving expert, yet, Cooper knew the difference immediately.

Just like in the McCoy hijacking, McCoy had done his homework, and knew of the places in which the FBI could secure chutes. Of course, we all know that mcCoy brought his own chute with him, and simply threw the other chutes out the back of the plane.

Is it possible that Cooper brought his own chute on the plane? I think it is possible. But, on the other hand. IF you know the guy who made and packed the chute, it is as good as it gets. Plus, Cooper popped open the extra chute which told him the chutes were in working order.


Anyway, I thought it was important to bring up this topic. It really hasn't been addressed by H-bach, or in any other books. Everything single thing that Cooper did on that plane was for a reason. For example, I believe he purposely told Tina that it looked like "tacoma" down there, so that Tina would relay this information to the FBI and they would think he was from Seattle.

Cooper requested chutes, so that the FBI would have to expand their search beyond known skydivers.

After reviewing everything that went on during that flight, Cooper comments, his expertise in aviation, his "popping" open one of the chutes to make certain it wasn't rigged incorrectly not to open, his quick thinking to use the back-up chest chute to hold the money, etc. amazes me at how good he was under pressure. Kind of like someone in "special forces".

I think this case would have been solved, if the investigators simply "listened" to what transpired on that plane, instead of jumping to conclusions about Cooper, and how he didn't seem to have an escape plan. Anybody who thinks a man risks the rest of his life in jail, or worse, and 36 years later has not been arrested, obviously had every detail planned to a "t". Only a fool would suggest otherwise.


left

 

[Old Dominion]

Back to Cooper:

Let's think about this case with no bias at all toward Teddy.

If Cooper really wanted to go to Mexico City, like he told the crew in Seattle, then why did he divert the plane to Seattle instead of, say, Los Angeles, or San Francisco.

Plus, he would have been closer to Mexico, and the plane would have had range, had more options for banks, skydiving centers, etc.

I'll tell you why. Because Cooper wanted to divert the plane to Seattle, circle for 2 hours, get the money, chutes, and head down v-23 and jump "exactly" where he jumped.

How did Cooper know that "sport" parachutes would be available the day before Thanksgiving, on a cold, rainy day, at 4 pm. Maybe he was a psychic, but, didn't he take a chance if the only rigger who possessed sport chutes was out of town for the holiday.

There are chutes available in every major city, but, very few. In 1971, there was only one "rigger" in Portland. We all know who that was.

Think about it. IF Cooper had simply circled around Portland, demanded "sport" parachutes, money, etc, from Portland, guess who the FBI would have called first?

You got it. That was the beauty of the plan. Put a tough deadline on getting the chutes. Cooper only gave the FBI one and a half hours to get the money and chutes, not enough time to get chutes from Spokane, or Portland. What if EC was out of town, then what?

Certainly, Cooper didn't plan his heist without knowing where the FBI would obtain chutes at such a late time of the day.

Cooper "must have" known that EC or one of his employees would be in town or available.

As a matter of fact, Cooper was so confident he would be able to secure "sport" chutes in Seattle, that he 'turned down" military chutes from McChord. Supposedly, the military chutes would open immediately and some suggest were static line chutes. Funny that H-bach thought Cooper was not a skydiving expert, yet, Cooper knew the difference immediately.

Just like in the McCoy hijacking, McCoy had done his homework, and knew of the places in which the FBI could secure chutes. Of course, we all know that mcCoy brought his own chute with him, and simply threw the other chutes out the back of the plane.

Is it possible that Cooper brought his own chute on the plane? I think it is possible. But, on the other hand. IF you know the guy who made and packed the chute, it is as good as it gets. Plus, Cooper popped open the extra chute which told him the chutes were in working order.


Anyway, I thought it was important to bring up this topic. It really hasn't been addressed by H-bach, or in any other books. Everything single thing that Cooper did on that plane was for a reason. For example, I believe he purposely told Tina that it looked like "tacoma" down there, so that Tina would relay this information to the FBI and they would think he was from Seattle.

Cooper requested chutes, so that the FBI would have to expand their search beyond known skydivers.

After reviewing everything that went on during that flight, Cooper comments, his expertise in aviation, his "popping" open one of the chutes to make certain it wasn't rigged incorrectly not to open, his quick thinking to use the back-up chest chute to hold the money, etc. amazes me at how good he was under pressure. Kind of like someone in "special forces".

I think this case would have been solved, if the investigators simply "listened" to what transpired on that plane, instead of jumping to conclusions about Cooper, and how he didn't seem to have an escape plan. Anybody who thinks a man risks the rest of his life in jail, or worse, and 36 years later has not been arrested, obviously had every detail planned to a "t". Only a fool would suggest otherwise.


left

Exactly, this is also why the "Big Splat" theory should have been considered and not religion. H-B isn't alone though, Tosaw is going the scour the Columbia or Washougal looking for that "body". You just get the feeling that H-B had convinced quite a few who are more than capable of thinking this through themselves, and yet you don't even need as much detail as you've given here to realize that Cooper probably made it.

On the IE segment I thought Teddy did a pretty good acting job when he explains that he could have "made the jump" but isn't "smart enough" to have planned it. I like the way he talks out the side of his mouth as if to make himself look less intelligent. I thought it was uncharacteristic vis-a-vis what I've seen of his other segments.

OD

 

[leftcoast]

Exactly, this is also why the "Big Splat" theory should have been considered and not religion. H-B isn't alone though, Tosaw is going the scour the Columbia or Washougal looking for that "body". You just get the feeling that H-B had convinced quite a few who are more than capable of thinking this through themselves, and yet you don't even need as much detail as you've given here to realize that Cooper probably made it.

On the IE segment I thought Teddy did a pretty good acting job when he explains that he could have "made the jump" but isn't "smart enough" to have planned it. I like the way he talks out the side of his mouth as if to make himself look less intelligent. I thought it was uncharacteristic vis-a-vis what I've seen of his other segments.

OD

Ya, if there is one thing I know for sure, it is that Teddy is not an idiot. He has above average intelligence. I would put him at 125, or so. When it comes to aviation, he has as much knowledge as anyone I have ever met.

Funny thing about the "i'm not smart enough" quote.

His own friend, a guy named Adamson, who runs the local mortuary in Mayberry, even said that Ted was "smart enough" to pull off the heist.

Adamson said that Ted would never "put anyone in harm's way". I think the people sent to his mortuary over the years would argue with that comment. Especially, the last two, who ended up costing Teddy his freedom for one year, and a "lifetime" ban on ever running a skydiving business ever again.

Ted told us the deaths were the result of an excessive number of jumps at his school, and that some people were "risk takers".

Well, that may be true for some of the deaths. But, the last two in which he was charged. Ted did not install the 'static line" correctly in the plane, and the chute didn't open. Then, the backup Cyrpress device, which is intended to open a chute if the diver does not pull the chord within a certain altitude, usually 1,000 or 1,500 feet, will then automatically deploy the chute. Well, Teddy, according to the FAA and court documents, knowingly used the cypress without properly calibrating it, and making sure it was in "working order". Then, after the jumps, Ted destroyed the video tapes of the jump, so that the FAA would not be able to view the tapes, and see that the static line was not installed properly.

The one man who died, a man named Perry, was 85 years old, and enjoying his first ever skydiving jump to celebrate his birthday. He splattered, and Ted took "zero" responsibility. Instead, it was a 'witch hunt" by the FAA, according to Ted.

And the kicker, the townsfolk to mayberry, many were behind Ted.

left

 

[Old Dominion]

Ya, if there is one thing I know for sure, it is that Teddy is not an idiot. He has above average intelligence. I would put him at 125, or so. When it comes to aviation, he has as much knowledge as anyone I have ever met.

Funny thing about the "i'm not smart enough" quote.

His own friend, a guy named Adamson, who runs the local mortuary in Mayberry, even said that Ted was "smart enough" to pull off the heist.

Adamson said that Ted would never "put anyone in harm's way". I think the people sent to his mortuary over the years would argue with that comment. Especially, the last two, who ended up costing Teddy his freedom for one year, and a "lifetime" ban on ever running a skydiving business ever again.

Ted told us the deaths were the result of an excessive number of jumps at his school, and that some people were "risk takers".

Well, that may be true for some of the deaths. But, the last two in which he was charged. Ted did not install the 'static line" correctly in the plane, and the chute didn't open. Then, the backup Cyrpress device, which is intended to open a chute if the diver does not pull the chord within a certain altitude, usually 1,000 or 1,500 feet, will then automatically deploy the chute. Well, Teddy, according to the FAA and court documents, knowingly used the cypress without properly calibrating it, and making sure it was in "working order". Then, after the jumps, Ted destroyed the video tapes of the jump, so that the FAA would not be able to view the tapes, and see that the static line was not installed properly.

The one man who died, a man named Perry, was 85 years old, and enjoying his first ever skydiving jump to celebrate his birthday. He splattered, and Ted took "zero" responsibility. Instead, it was a 'witch hunt" by the FAA, according to Ted.

And the kicker, the townsfolk to mayberry, many were behind Ted.

left

Don't you ever wonder what kind of communication there has been over the years between the FAA and FBI? I've got to believe that at least some of those 12 calls could have been FAA officials calling Ted in.

I can't imagine that there wouldn't have been enough suspicion within the FAA factions familiar with Teddy to have officially called on the FBI to investigate...or...investigate themselves given the lack of FBI progression. After all they are a FEDERAL entity.

It really makes me wonder.

OD

 

[rightcoast]

Ted sounds to me like a guy that could sell ice to Eskimos. Maybe even a lie to an FBI agent, a jury and the good people of Mayberry on diferrent occasions.

 

[leftcoast]

Don't you ever wonder what kind of communication there has been over the years between the FAA and FBI? I've got to believe that at least some of those 12 calls could have been FAA officials calling Ted in.

I can't imagine that there wouldn't have been enough suspicion within the FAA factions familiar with Teddy to have officially called on the FBI to investigate...or...investigate themselves given the lack of FBI progression. After all they are a FEDERAL entity.

It really makes me wonder.

OD

Good call OD

I really don't know that much about the FAA, and their relationship with the FBI.

I do know that Teddy told us the FAA official that starting investigating him, began to wear a pistol. Ted thought it was riduculous, since, the FAA is suppose to be a "regulatory" agency, versus a law enforcement agency.

He may have a point. On the other hand, if a certain FAA official was concerned about his or her own safety related to an ongoing investigation, one would think they would be allowed to carry a firearm.

You bring up a good point, I do wonder if the FAA and FBI get along, and if they communicate.

Considering the FBi and local police don't usually see "eye to eye", I kind of think that the bureau and FAA aren't on the same page.

I wonder if Adnoid knows more.

That is a good idea, related to the FAA helping in this investigation. One could surmise that the FAA would have a list of pilots, skydiving instructors, etc. that the FAA was having ongoing disputes with at the time of the hijacking. Especially given Cooper's excellent knowledge of aviation, air traffic control, air routes, etc. One does wonder if the agent who booted Teddy boy out of Aurora, called in his name on that infamous night.

I do know from court papers that Teddy boy "threatened to kill one of his neighbors in Donald over a dispute with his skydiving school and excessive noise, and using neighbors property as a runway" in 1971.

Then, weeks later, he calls the FBI out of "sincere, civic intentions" trying to catch Cooper. B.S.

Call me stupid, but, I still don't get why H-bach didn't ask Ted where he was from 2-10pm on that night? IT makes zero sense to me, and defies everything that FBI agents are instructed to do during an investigation.

Even if Ted called from Spokane, and I could verify he made the call from a house full of police officers, I still would be asking him where he was from 2 until the call. I guess you have to suspect someone first, but, isn't everyone a suspect until an alibi eliminates them?

I agree with OD, this case is just very, very, difficult to believe. Mayberry, or a crooked sheriff yes, but, the FBI, no way in he_ _.

Another thing I just don't understand. H-bach works the case by himself until retirement without success. And the FBI still uses him for his "expertise" after retirement. I don't get it. Isn't that like having a major league pitcher with zero wins as a starter, he retires, and you hire him as a "pitching coach"?

left

 

[Old Dominion]

Good call OD

I really don't know that much about the FAA, and their relationship with the FBI.

You bring up a good point, I do wonder if the FAA and FBI get along, and if they communicate.

Considering the FBi and local police don't usually see "eye to eye", I kind of think that the bureau and FAA aren't on the same page.

I don't know either. But I do know that many times govt agencies have collaborated, especially if the investigating branch (in this case the FBI) requests it. In other words, the FAA could not barge in on the FBI's case, but could certainly be called on and would most likely be more than willing to help.

That is a good idea, related to the FAA helping in this investigation. One could surmise that the FAA would have a list of pilots, skydiving instructors, etc. that the FAA was having ongoing disputes with at the time of the hijacking. Especially given Cooper's excellent knowledge of aviation, air traffic control, air routes, etc. One does wonder if the agent who booted Teddy boy out of Aurora, called in his name on that infamous night.

Then, weeks later, he calls the FBI out of "sincere, civic intentions" trying to catch Cooper. B.S.

This would indeed seem like it should be routine in investigating air piracy. Of course we know that there wasn't an ounce of "routine" in H-B's mess.

Call me stupid, but, I still don't get why H-bach didn't ask Ted where he was from 2-10pm on that night? IT makes zero sense to me, and defies everything that FBI agents are instructed to do during an investigation.

Because he was "eliminated" early. And without any due diligence you mention above. And....you know in H-B's world, when you're eliminated you never come back into the game. The big question about H-B is did he do this in all his cases??? Right now I'm doubting it and only the FBI knows for sure.

Another thing I just don't understand. H-bach works the case by himself until retirement without success. And the FBI still uses him for his "expertise" after retirement. I don't get it. Isn't that like having a major league pitcher with zero wins as a starter, he retires, and you hire him as a "pitching coach"?

left

I agree. And where is it (was it) written in the FBI that when you take over a case you use all the old leads? This was a case with zero success. I don't think H-B even had a hot potato the entire 10 years he had the case. Zip. So WHY would any new investigator even speak to Ralph except to learn his failed methods and then start again from scratch?

Is it possible H-B wanted to be a part of this after retirement so he could continue to "steer" this investigation?

OD

 

[leftcoast]

I don't know either. But I do know that many times govt agencies have collaborated, especially if the investigating branch (in this case the FBI) requests it. In other words, the FAA could not barge in on the FBI's case, but could certainly be called on and would most likely be more than willing to help.

It is too bad that H-bach didn't work more with the FAA. I know the computer systems back in 1971 really are no match with today's systems, but, it was quite obvious that Cooper had some type of flight training, or was as least a skilled skydiver.


This would indeed seem like it should be routine in investigating air piracy. Of course we know that there wasn't an ounce of "routine" in H-B's mess.

No there wasn't. H-bach seemed to make certain assumptions of his into facts. Such as Cooper not having a pre-determined dropzone thought out before taking off from Seattle. I just don't understand why H-bach couldn't figure out that Cooper instructed the pilot either directly or indirectly to fly on V-23 because that is where he had planned on exiting the plane. You always assume the criminal has everything planned to a "t", and work accordingly. H-bach did the opposite. Fatal error.

Because he was "eliminated" early. And without any due diligence you mention above. And....you know in H-B's world, when you're eliminated you never come back into the game. The big question about H-B is did he do this in all his cases??? Right now I'm doubting it and only the FBI knows for sure.

Exactly. That is what I have been trying to explain. Once H-bach eliminated someone, he never contemplated changing his opinion. To us, it is so obvious, but to H-bach, Cooper is "exactly" as described by the FA's. Which, is against everything the agents are taught. All H-bach had to do is look at the two different sketches, and he should have been able to figure out that all the witnesses had a different opinion on what Cooper looked like. Heck, the hair is completely different in all three sketches (including the UM one).

I agree. And where is it (was it) written in the FBI that when you take over a case you use all the old leads? This was a case with zero success. I don't think H-B even had a hot potato the entire 10 years he had the case. Zip. So WHY would any new investigator even speak to Ralph except to learn his failed methods and then start again from scratch?

Is it possible H-B wanted to be a part of this after retirement so he could continue to "steer" this investigation?

OD

This proves that the FBI had no inclination that the most likely outcome of this investigation was that "Cooper" was amongst the suspects investigated, but, was overlooked due to an error on the part of H=bach or fellow agent.

It is possible H-bach wanted to steer the investigation away from Teddy boy. It is also possible that the FBI wanted to use H-bach to "save" money, instead of having a new agent re-hash old leads regarding the same suspects, over and over again.

The method used once H-bach retired is the most efficient, but, it depends 100% on the fact that the prior agent didn't make any mistakes and eliminate the wrong man in the previous years, or worse.

In 1980, when H-bach retired, the case should have been assigned to a new agent, and he or she should have started over. But, considering the complexity of the case, the number of suspects, I think the FBI didn't want to invest the manpower to make such an endeavor. IT would have taken at least 2 months, just for the agent to get up to speed.

The real mistake, other than passing on Teddy in 1971, was that H-bach was not "rotated" off this investigation in 1972, and another agent assigned and told to start over. Back then, the case was fresh, and there weren't that many suspects, so, it would have been much easier to do then in 1980, when the suspect list had hit 800.

Yes, h-bach never had a "good" suspect the entire time he investigated the case. H-bach was quoted as saying that "many suspects looked good at the start, but, as you started investigating them, the case began to fall apart". On the other hand, our case started strong, and continued to build steam, and 7 years later is stronger than when we started.

left

 

[Niner]

Oh ok - leftcoast re closing Part 1 - yes, it can really slow someone's computer if the pages get way too long. So I'm posting the link to PART 1 of DB Cooper:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44859

**

 

[leftcoast]

Oh ok - leftcoast re closing Part 1 - yes, it can really slow someone's computer if the pages get way too long. So I'm posting the link to PART 1 of DB Cooper:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44859

**

thanks Niner.

It gets confusing when you see a locked sign. I know some people had problems finding Part II.

So, what do you think about the case. Have any reservations? Are you convinced, as much as you can be?

I know I am. Of course, everyone deserves a day in court. But, I sure would like to see if any of those prints, hairs from the seat headrest, etc, match a certain individual. I sure would like a little physical evidence to tie the case together, or exonnerate him.

What really gets me is the following. When we went to talk to him, he had no reason to lie about the FBI calling him 5 times that night. Heck, he even told that story to KOIN, and I'm sure Ted was surprised to see H-bach still kicking, and dispute it. But, why would an innocent person lie?

Sure, one could argue he wanted to make himself more important, but, he was already part of the case, since the FBI used him to go over his records looking for a 47 year old man who went skydiving at his DZ. So, Ted was already part of the case, without telling a lie.

Why not just tell us the story about how he called H-bach at 10pm and told h-bach he didn't want the FBI to think he was the hijacker? Is it because the rest of us know a world champion skydiver could easily predetermine a dropzone in advance, land, and make it to any phone in the area in 2 hours without breaking a sweat? I say yes.

Also, why lie to us, and tell us he has never heard of Ralph HImmelsbach. I asked him 4 times, do you know h-bach, and he flat out said "no". Never heard of him. Of course, I already knew that Teddy boy "specifically insisted" on talking to H-bach when he called in on the 24th at 10ish. Not to mention their history at Aurora airport, and H-bach calling Teddy after the hijacking to get names to go with potential suspect leads.

So, take the two lies, with all the rest of the circumstantial case, the sketch done by FS on UM, and what do you have?

Ted is now using his number 3 alibi to everyone, and that is, he was having dinner with a girlfriend. So, we're suppose to believe the FBI (who deny ever calling him) calls him 5 times, Ted doesn't help with chutes, any knowledge of where Cooper might jump, doesnt' give them any names of suspects, and still on a very hectic night, the FBI still keeps calling Teddy boy back 5 seperate times. Why?????? And in the middle of this, Ted tells the FBI, I know you have this huge case, but, I have to go to dinner, so, call me back later (remember, no cell phones back in 71). This, in the middle of a "nutcase threatening to kill 42 people. Then, we are suppose to believe that the FBI calls Ted yet again, after dinner, and tells TEd, "ya, Cooper must have jumped". The FBI didn't know this until after 11pm. Why in the world would the fBI call him the 5th time that night, when Ted hasn't helped them at all the entire night? With all the leads to follow, it makes zero sense.

And on top of this, Teddy boy tells us he "never" called the FBI that night. That's right, Ted never called the FBI, they called him 5 times. Well, we have two seperate FBI sources that confirm Ted is the one who called the FBI, not the other way around.

So, when you put this on top of everything else, you can understand why he is such an "important" suspect in this case.

I'm sure his story worked on everyone else, because, it is next to impossible to prove his story is fabricated. Unless, of course, you pick up the phone and ask H-bach to lunch. Who would think such a thing would happen 30 years later, I'm sure Teddy didn't.

Another thing. Why not just wait it out and certainly the FBI was going to capture the hijacker once he landed. Right? So, then you don't have to bother calling, and putting your name on the radar screen. OR could you have a inkling that just maybe, you knew something at 10pm that the FBI had suspected, that Cooper had already jumped, buried the money, and was enjoying a "chuckle" and a "tall one". That is the only way that one could prevent from "not sounding" like a guy who just hijacked an airliner. Just my thoughts.

left

 

[leftcoast]

I went back and reviewed some of the Cooper shows which aired on the history channel. It's strange, to review the shows that started this obsession if you will.

Anyway, H-bach clearly states in the one show that the FBI checked out McCoy "thoroughly", and that mcCoy was known to be in Los Angeles on the 24th of November. So, I wish the conspiracy theorist WRT McCoy would listen to the fBI. Plus, FS said that Cooper wasn't McCoy. NExt, McCoy will be on the Grassy Knoll ( I stole that one from OD).

Anyway, I know OD disagrees, but, H-bach really either is set on Cooper landing in the middle of a forest, or H-bach deserves an "oscar" for his performance. I think H-bach's lack of skydiving experience was a detriment in this case. Plus, H-bach has a skydiving expert, Teddy boy, telling him false information, such as, "it's inconceivable the skyjacker could know where he was, land uninjured, etc.". Then, Teddy boy goes on KOIN and says "I could make the jump without any problem."

My gut tells me H-bach knows what is "up" now. I think he got it in 2001.

Of course, I'm leaving open the possibility that OD brings up, but, I am leaning toward H-bach relying on the "wrong" person for skydiving advice.

Let's remember, Teddy boy, won first place in 1974 for Accuracy in skydiving. This is in the entire United States. In any sport, you have to be at the top of your game, to even be in the top 50, let alone number 1. Landing on a certain spot, takes expertise in aviation, math, wind speeds, the ability to steer a chute, and obviously experience. To think Cooper didn't have this same type of experience would be illogical. Why? Because if Cooper wasn't an expert skydiver, he would have never thought of the idea, nor would he have been able to pull it off without a hitch. Now, the copycats, they didn't need the expertise, because, they had a template in which to work with. And the majority of them also had no problem with the jump, one even jumped at 300 knots.


left

 

[Old Dominion]

This proves that the FBI had no inclination that the most likely outcome of this investigation was that "Cooper" was amongst the suspects investigated, but, was overlooked due to an error on the part of H=bach or fellow agent.

Which fellow agent would that have been? Thought that H-back worked this case alone?

The method used once H-bach retired is the most efficient, but, it depends 100% on the fact that the prior agent didn't make any mistakes and eliminate the wrong man in the previous years, or worse.

In 1980, when H-bach retired, the case should have been assigned to a new agent, and he or she should have started over. But, considering the complexity of the case, the number of suspects, I think the FBI didn't want to invest the manpower to make such an endeavor. IT would have taken at least 2 months, just for the agent to get up to speed.

This assumes that the case is necessarily "complicated". While 36 years later it becomes complicated, a new agent rotated on after even just 5 years might have just broke this open with a pile of photos and 2 F.A.'s.

Regardless, keeping H-B on the case and actually implementing his strategy would have taken half the national guard and as many shovels, and draining the Columbia no less. That 'aint cheap

The real mistake, other than passing on Teddy in 1971, was that H-bach was not "rotated" off this investigation in 1972, and another agent assigned and told to start over. Back then, the case was fresh, and there weren't that many suspects, so, it would have been much easier to do then in 1980, when the suspect list had hit 800.

Again, H-B was so bad, that just giving the latitude of a new investigator
and a little procedure there wouldn't necessarily be "800" H-B era suspects to consider. What about just starting with sky divers with criminal records and the FAs like any logical person would do? If the FBI is not going to audit H-B's procedure after 10 years of zilch, at least TRY another starting pitcher.

Yes, h-bach never had a "good" suspect the entire time he investigated the case. H-bach was quoted as saying that "many suspects looked good at the start, but, as you started investigating them, the case began to fall apart". On the other hand, our case started strong, and continued to build steam, and 7 years later is stronger than when we started.

left

Yup. Poor H-B! Must be awful being allergic to photographic paper, and having F.A. phobia at the same time....really hinders an investigation.

OD

 

[Old Dominion]

Anyway, H-bach clearly states in the one show that the FBI checked out McCoy "thoroughly", and that mcCoy was known to be in Los Angeles on the 24th of November. So, I wish the conspiracy theorist WRT McCoy would listen to the fBI. Plus, FS said that Cooper wasn't McCoy. NExt, McCoy will be on the Grassy Knoll ( I stole that one from OD).

Couldn't agree more. In many ways, McCoy is a much more interesting suspect than Weber ever was. We know he pulled off a similar heist and survived. We know he'd jumped out of airplanes in Nam. Those who bolster McCoy as Cooper seem to center their focus on how similar the jackings were, but when you really compare a copycat to the original on a micro level they are actually quite different. No one knows that better than LC. The best anyone who supports McCoy can do is place him in Vegas the day before. There is no evidence that McCoy was ever in Portland, or had ever been there. We're talking about a city almost 1000 miles from Vegas. I have no doubt about the FBI having placed McCoy in LA at the time of the heist. Because this portion of McCoy's investigation would have been about his possible involvement with another unsolved and open case rather than the 72 jacking he perpetrated, the details of this would not be public. This is what allowed Calame and Rhodes to get away with writing their book.

Additionally, as LC mentioned, Florence has already rejected McCoy's photo as Cooper. In H-B's own book he mentions Cooper as a thickly built man as the UM sketch would suggest. McCoy is thin as a rail.

My gut tells me H-bach knows what is "up" now. I think he got it in 2001.

Well LC, if it hasn't hit him yet, then you are CERTAINLY right about 1971 .

OD

 

[leftcoast]

Which fellow agent would that have been? Thought that H-back worked this case alone?

H-bach did. But, I do believe that H-bach had a "counterpart" in Seattle for at least a few months. I'm not 100% certain, but, I believe that that Harold Campbell guy was in charge of leads in Seattle, and H-bach in Oregon. However, like I said, I'm not certain. After a few months, it was definitely H-bach's case, and the case was officially called a "portland" case. Mainly due to the fact that Cooper boarded in Portland, gave the note on the ground in Portland, and is believed to have jumped just north of Portland.

This assumes that the case is necessarily "complicated". While 36 years later it becomes complicated, a new agent rotated on after even just 5 years might have just broke this open with a pile of photos and 2 F.A.'s.

I have to disagree with you, a bit, on this strategy. I think this is one of the many errors the FBI made. I'll tell you why. I think Cooper disguised himself, by dying his hair, wearing makeup, and the glasses. IT is possible that this disguise may have made it difficult for the FA's to pick him out of a lineup.

Personally, I don't think that any pictures should be shown to the FA's until the FBI has at least talked with potential suspects, or at least is in the process of building a case. Part of the reason the FA's were so upset with the FBI in this case, is that the FBI would simply show up with a stack of photo's, and ask the FA;s to pick out Cooper. IMO, the fBI should have had an "idea" of who Cooper could have been, before showing a "line-up" to the FA's. The reason for this is simple. After a while, the FA's are going to start thinking they are wrong, or even worse, the photo's are going to interfere with their memory of the suspect. I firmly believe a "lineup" should only be used when one has a "case" against a particular suspect. Just my personal take.

Regardless, keeping H-B on the case and actually implementing his strategy would have taken half the national guard and as many shovels, and draining the Columbia no less. That 'aint cheap

Give me 5,000 men and 5 years, was the quote from Himmy. How about 2 men, and about 100 hours. The rest of our time was spent building a stronger case. But, we had Cooper back in 2000, after only spending about 100 hours of time.


Again, H-B was so bad, that just giving the latitude of a new investigator
and a little procedure there wouldn't necessarily be "800" H-B era suspects to consider. What about just starting with sky divers with criminal records and the FAs like any logical person would do? If the FBI is not going to audit H-B's procedure after 10 years of zilch, at least TRY another starting pitcher.

Great point OD. H-bach should have started the investigation in the following order:

skydivers who live in Seattle or Portland and have criminal records.

skydivers who live in Seattle or Portland and have specific tips from neighbors, friends, etc, such as "physical evidence", bragging, etc.

Then, work your way down to the loggers, bus drivers, etc.

This was actually a very easy case to solve, made difficult by making assumptions into facts.

IT's simple. We're looking for a man about 40, give or take 7 years, who is a skydiver, military background, criminal record, etc.



Yup. Poor H-B! Must be awful being allergic to photographic paper, and having F.A. phobia at the same time....really hinders an investigation.

OD[/quote]

True. Maybe in the beginning Harold Campbell handled the interviews with the FA's. But, once the case went cold in April of 72, the first thing H-bach should have done is met with the FA's, and Campbell, and devised a plan, gone over the list of skydivers with criminal records, etc.

In my mind, the FBI and H-bach "expanded" the search for Cooper much too early. They should have focused on "local" skydivers first, then expanded to loggers, people who live in other states, etc.

And the most fatal error in the history of the FBI, was to eliminate anyone in this case. How can you eliminate anyone until the case is solved?

Just think, if this case was handled correctly, how life would have changed for so many people.

I seriously doubt that McCoy and the other's would have tried it.. Sure, one or two, but, I doubt that many people would have tried it. Especially, if a local skydiving expert gets caught, what are the chances of a "schmuck" getting away with it? Zero.

left

 

[leftcoast]

Couldn't agree more. In many ways, McCoy is a much more interesting suspect than Weber ever was. We know he pulled off a similar heist and survived. We know he'd jumped out of airplanes in Nam. Those who bolster McCoy as Cooper seem to center their focus on how similar the jackings were, but when you really compare a copycat to the original on a micro level they are actually quite different. No one knows that better than LC. The best anyone who supports McCoy can do is place him in Vegas the day before. There is no evidence that McCoy was ever in Portland, or had ever been there. We're talking about a city almost 1000 miles from Vegas. I have no doubt about the FBI having placed McCoy in LA at the time of the heist. Because this portion of McCoy's investigation would have been about his possible involvement with another unsolved and open case rather than the 72 jacking he perpetrated, the details of this would not be public. This is what allowed Calame and Rhodes to get away with writing their book.

Additionally, as LC mentioned, Florence has already rejected McCoy's photo as Cooper. In H-B's own book he mentions Cooper as a thickly built man as the UM sketch would suggest. McCoy is thin as a rail.

Let's think about this logically. McCoy hijacks a plane in April 72, and within 2 days runs his mouth to a "highway patrolman", and gets popped. McCoy's photo is all over the news, newspapers, etc.

Doesn't anyone think that the FBI brought a photo of McCoy to Tina and Florence and Alice and asked them if this was Cooper? Plus, the FBI is very good at finding out where people are during a crime (99.9% of the time). I can guarantee you that competent agents were all over McCoy whereabouts on the 24th, including talking with his fellow guardsmen, records, etc. Could the FBI have made a mistake on McCoy? YEs, but it is extremely unlikely. First of all, there was proof that mcCoy already hijacked a jet, so the investigation would have been "looking" for guilt, and his life would have been "torn" apart. PLus, the FA's said it wasn't him.

Not to mention that not one "item" from the Cooper case was found in McCoy's house during the search. Only evidence from the McCoy hijacking, and some newspaper articles from the Cooper case, which I believe were used as a template to "copy" Cooper.

But, yes, I do agree that McCoy is 100 times more likely to be Cooper than Weber. Criminals stick to what they know best. Weber was a forger, and a bad,stupid one at that. Forgers don't have aggressive personalities to commit "takeover" crimes, that is why they are forgers. IF Weber had a history of bank robbery, armed robbery, and any skydiving, I would agree he is a possibility. But, I can't even believe we are mentioning his name simply because he resembles one of the three sketches. Heck, the UM sketch, there is no way in He--, that sketch, or the Bing Crosby sketch, could ever be Weber. The balding hair, and no signs of dumbo ears.

PLus, Florence said that Cooper isn't McCoy and she also said that there is no way Weber is Cooper.

Well LC, if it hasn't hit him yet, then you are CERTAINLY right about 1971 .

OD

What do you mean OD? Right about 71.?

left

 

[Old Dominion]

This assumes that the case is necessarily "complicated". While 36 years later it becomes complicated, a new agent rotated on after even just 5 years might have just broke this open with a pile of photos and 2 F.A.'s.

Personally, I don't think that any pictures should be shown to the FA's until the FBI has at least talked with potential suspects, or at least is in the process of building a case. Part of the reason the FA's were so upset with the FBI in this case, is that the FBI would simply show up with a stack of photo's, and ask the FA;s to pick out Cooper. IMO, the fBI should have had an "idea" of who Cooper could have been, before showing a "line-up" to the FA's. The reason for this is simple. After a while, the FA's are going to start thinking they are wrong, or even worse, the photo's are going to interfere with their memory of the suspect. I firmly believe a "lineup" should only be used when one has a "case" against a particular suspect. Just my personal take.

I agree. I was being purposefully flippant and terse in order to vent my continuing frustration with H-B. Flooding the FA's with photos right after the jacking is the wrong thing to do. Seems there was some confusion right after this heist as to who was in charge, or it hadn't been decided? T'wood have been interesting if Harold Campbell had been given this case. His office probably would have received several calls from Portland about a certain truck driver/sky diver. The question is what would HE have done?

This was actually a very easy case to solve, made difficult by making assumptions into facts.

That, and the fact that there is absolutely no fabric of methodology. Even Colombo( I know he's fictitious) uses methodology as his core and then because of the complexity of his cases has to take chances and use string theories to put it all together. The fact is that regardless of how smart someone is, we all use basic common sense in resolving everyday problems. If a noise in your transmission could either be from being a quart low or needing a full rebuild, what functional person would ever have the tranny rebuilt before adding a quart of fluid?

IT's simple. We're looking for a man about 40, give or take 7 years, who is a skydiver, military background, criminal record, etc.

Good example. Let's say your case isn't going well and like ours you have no real suspects. You've set your range to 33-47. So you get a call about a suspect that is a skydiver with a suspicious past but he's only 29 years old. Do you cross him off the list? After all he doesn't make the lower limit of your range.

OD

 

[Old Dominion]

What do you mean OD? Right about 71.?

left

I guess I wasn't clear on that, I was kind of tired when I wrote it.

What I meant was if H-B could be hooked up to a Polygraph, and honestly still doesn't see it today, then the notion that this blew right over his head in '71 is a forgone conclusion.

OD