WA WA - Seattle, WhtFem 30-50, 159UFWA, UP12916, alias 'Mary Anderson', copper IUD, breast surgery scars, Oct'96

Learn more about this case on DNASolves.

  • #1,021
I believe isotope testing is more useful in historical and ancient remains, from the times when most people ate food grown and drank water sourced from the place they lived.

In today's global market, your food and drink could be from anywhere. Just ate noodles from Indonesia. Never been anywhere near Indonesia in my life. Drinking mineral water with it. Where did that water come from? Who knows, could be anywhere in the country. Will probably have some chocolate before bed. Chocolate doesn't grow in my country at all. Neither does the coffee I had for breakfast. See the problem?

MOO
Yes, it's used in archaeology as well! We didn't have such a global market in people born from 1952-1960's (the date range this DOE was estimated to be) so, a strontium isotope, stable, and oxygen isotope testing can reveal much and we need anything at this point - we have nothing on where to even begin with her.
 
  • #1,022
She wore a dental plate and had a copper IUD. I would think one, if not both, would have a serial number of some sort (?)
Here are two articles written by journalist Carol Smith of the Seattle Post Intelligencer where the ME's at the time and Kathy Taylor were both interviewed as well as police, what was found in the room, what they did, etc.. The cipher in room 214 Who was Mary Anderson and why did she die?
and a very comprehensive article from Todd Matthews, co-founder of the DOE Network, on her with a real deep dive into the entire case.
https://www.wahmee.com/uploads/1/3/0/5/130585672/sam.pdf
This is also a more detailed photo of Mary (pay special attention to the night table where it looks like a pack of cigarettes and lighter as well as bracelets appear? The detail is blurry as the focus was on Mary and not on the table :-( As you can see she looks much thinner in the photo and that is due to the settling of the tissues in death. Those areas that are propped up her wrists to hand and her head look thinner than her actual body size as they're more on a flat surface. I think this will give people a prospective on how she appears and more questions on the nightstand contents.
 

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  • #1,023
One example of a case where the isotope analysis was wrong is that of Evelyn Colon: Wikipedia article on her murder. I’m not sure what type of isotope testing was done in that case.
 
  • #1,024
I've read about so many Doe cases I'm not sure of the type of isotope testing in those cases either. I had read of Evelyn's case.
 
  • #1,025
One example of a case where the isotope analysis was wrong is that of Evelyn Colon: Wikipedia article on her murder. I’m not sure what type of isotope testing was done in that case.
Yes, it does depend on the type of test and the controls used during the testing. There is not a uniform procedure or what is called "best practices" for the isotope tests: isotope, strontium, and oxygen. So results can vary with improper (inexperienced) handling of the tests. Same in any crime lab, but we have better controls now as time has gone on to assure the accuracy. It's a shame these things don't progress quicker but the science moves so fast it's hard to stay at the same pace. (My personal belief is that those who invent or utilize these things should be the one's to develop a protocol by which to test and handle the tests and handling of samples and results. I think the onus is on them.)
 
  • #1,026
Just to add, the she had a dental plate but it was never found. But there’s evidence she had one.
I've been searching this area, Frewsburg NY, and the area code. Apparently there have been only a handful of industries in the area (not done entirely looking at those), and several prefix's, and an indication the area code is relatively new and most of this area before was loaded into Queen's interestingly enough. You might have really hit on something here, well done! Now, only question is: is Mary's dental plate a partial dental plate like this one or a full dental plate? This looks like both top and bottom...? (I think Mary's was only a top). Our KCME office has not divulged to the media/public definitively whether it's a full or partial plate and if there was a bottom partial or not. And with Kathy gone, I'm at a loss as to who to ask. I guess that's my next stop while I wrap up these other loose ends. Bravo again, Holly!
 
  • #1,027
Interesting... I was going to attend UCLA Davis to study forensic anthropology in my criminal justice degree and it's my understanding this testing is still done and relied upon. I just read an article, in fact, from the National Museum of Natural History on how it's still used to test skeletal remains. In fact, it stated that you could follow the complete history from birth to death from the bones. What I was referencing in general above was a test called strontium isotope testing which can determine where a person grew up in broad terms from tooth enamel. May I ask where you read this? I'd be interested to research it myself. (I had a baby and couldn't relocate at the time to Davis, so my studies remained in Oregon and just in CJ). Many thanks if you can steer me in the right direction. (I might add all testing is only as accurate as the test, the controls, the sample, and the interpretation of data. Tests are gauges only and none even in the living are 100% accurate. I always thought that's why they call it practicing medicine! LOL)
It might be reliable when looking at historical remains. We consume imported food and water in the modern age, which can skew results.
 
  • #1,028
It might be reliable when looking at historical remains. We consume imported food and water in the modern age, which can skew results.
Yes, it's surprising to read that since 1999 the increase in imported food for the US is up 300%! Back in the day when Mary committed suicide we only imported 7-8.8% of our food and water :-( I guess after the year 2000 eating and drinking imported food and water grew exponentially due to being "trendy" and many people traveling internationally increased too - exposing us to different foods and types of water as well (sparkling, flavored, etc...). The skew might be negligible considering it wasn't so much a factor until after 2000. I guess doing something/anything since we've run out of tests other than genealogy at this stage...well that we have been made aware of at any rate... might give us another avenue to explore.
 
  • #1,029
  • #1,030
I went for my hair appointment today and when I arrived, my hairdresser was sitting down soaking her feet in a bowl. I chuckled and asked her what she was doing...she said from standing on her feet all day for many years, she soaks her feet during breaks to ease her foot pain. Made me think that maybe our UID might have suffered from chronic foot pain from years of being on her feet for long periods of time (?)
Could be what the bowl was for...
 
  • #1,031
Wow, when I looked at the PM photo of Mary I was taken aback at just how Persian she looks... she could be straight out of one of my family photo albums (hair, makeup, and her face is just very very Persian-looking).

Some thoughts based on that:

I think it's most likely that she's an immigrant due to the year (90s) - at her age, she would have had to be born in the 60s or earlier and most Iranians immigrated post-revolution in '79.

Persian communities in the US are incredibly close-knit, everyone-knows-everyone type situation. Has anyone tried posting in Iranian-American/Iranian immigrant Facebook groups? I don't even know what exactly to look for but I am sure that someone would somehow recognize her (especially if someone could make a Farsi and English flyer).

Regarding the Bible - Persians in the US tend to be very secular but I know that spirituality isn't uncommon and therefore, bible isn't too weird to me. My father doesn't consider himself Christian but reads the Bible and goes to church because... well I don't really know, but this isn't too uncommon of a thing. Many people also turn to religion in times of extreme despair, especially with a Bible right there in the hotel room, I don't think it necessarily makes sense to profile her as being of any specific religion.

This makes me so sad. Someone in CA and NY's large Persian communities would definitely recognize her.
 
  • #1,032
Wow, when I looked at the PM photo of Mary I was taken aback at just how Persian she looks... she could be straight out of one of my family photo albums (hair, makeup, and her face is just very very Persian-looking).

Some thoughts based on that:

I think it's most likely that she's an immigrant due to the year (90s) - at her age, she would have had to be born in the 60s or earlier and most Iranians immigrated post-revolution in '79.

Persian communities in the US are incredibly close-knit, everyone-knows-everyone type situation. Has anyone tried posting in Iranian-American/Iranian immigrant Facebook groups? I don't even know what exactly to look for but I am sure that someone would somehow recognize her (especially if someone could make a Farsi and English flyer).

Regarding the Bible - Persians in the US tend to be very secular but I know that spirituality isn't uncommon and therefore, bible isn't too weird to me. My father doesn't consider himself Christian but reads the Bible and goes to church because... well I don't really know, but this isn't too uncommon of a thing. Many people also turn to religion in times of extreme despair, especially with a Bible right there in the hotel room, I don't think it necessarily makes sense to profile her as being of any specific religion.

This makes me so sad. Someone in CA and NY's large Persian communities would definitely recognize her.
That is our hope. We would be grateful if you all spread the word.
 
  • #1,033
Wow, when I looked at the PM photo of Mary I was taken aback at just how Persian she looks... she could be straight out of one of my family photo albums (hair, makeup, and her face is just very very Persian-looking).

Some thoughts based on that:

I think it's most likely that she's an immigrant due to the year (90s) - at her age, she would have had to be born in the 60s or earlier and most Iranians immigrated post-revolution in '79.

Persian communities in the US are incredibly close-knit, everyone-knows-everyone type situation. Has anyone tried posting in Iranian-American/Iranian immigrant Facebook groups? I don't even know what exactly to look for but I am sure that someone would somehow recognize her (especially if someone could make a Farsi and English flyer).

Regarding the Bible - Persians in the US tend to be very secular but I know that spirituality isn't uncommon and therefore, bible isn't too weird to me. My father doesn't consider himself Christian but reads the Bible and goes to church because... well I don't really know, but this isn't too uncommon of a thing. Many people also turn to religion in times of extreme despair, especially with a Bible right there in the hotel room, I don't think it necessarily makes sense to profile her as being of any specific religion.

This makes me so sad. Someone in CA and NY's large Persian communities would definitely recognize her.
Do you think a divorce might be a factor here?

I get the impression, she got a divorce and cut contact with people or people cut contact with her.

I do get the impression, she came here with a spouse. Maybe it was an "arranged" marriage or "semi-arranged" between two influential families in Iran. (Thought they were in love. Families were thrilled etc) Didn't work out. Humiliating to families. Maybe she didn't want her family back home to know, so she "disappeared" instead.

I've always felt that bible was a way to hide her identity and of course the name, "Mary Anderson"...

I know the US Persian community is more liberal, but some Iranians here or family back home may not be. Family post revolution back home is not accepting etc....

I'm not familiar enough with the community, but I know there is a lot of diversity here in the US with regards to whether they adhere to more traditional or western lifestyles.

For some reason, she really did not want anyone to know who she was... When I found out she was Iranian, I thought of marriage and family issues.

I'm Armenian and it used to be that divorce/failed marriage was the ultimate humiliation. My great aunt spent the rest of her life in an "insane asylum" after a failed marriage.

Thank you for posting!!!
 
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  • #1,034
Do you think a divorce might be a factor here?

I get the impression, she got a divorce and cut contact with people or people cut contact with her.

I do get the impression, she came here with a spouse. Maybe it was an "arranged" marriage or "semi-arranged" between two influential families in Iran. (Thought they were in love. Families were thrilled etc) Didn't work out. Humiliating to families. Maybe she didn't want her family back home to know, so she "disappeared" instead.

I've always felt that bible was a way to hide her identity and of course the name, "Mary Anderson"...

I know the US Persian community is more liberal, but some Iranians here or family back home may not be. Family post revolution back home is not accepting etc....

I'm not familiar enough with the community, but I know there is a lot of diversity here in the US with regards to whether they adhere to more traditional or western lifestyles.

For some reason, she really did not want anyone to know who she was... When I found out she was Iranian, I thought of marriage and family issues.

I'm Armenian and it used to be that divorce/failed marriage was the ultimate humiliation. My great aunt spent the rest of her life in an "insane asylum" after a failed marriage.

Thank you for posting!!!
Thanks for the notes!! Totally a possibility, the odds of her immigrating 100% alone aren't super high and there is definitely a big divorce taboo. Astute observation! Shame could definitely play a role too, especially as she's older, likely would have been tougher to remarry + her community here, job, etc may have been centered around marriage/family. Immigrant communities can get very insulated when outgroups are hostile/not super accepting, Persian communities aren't necessarily that way today but I wasn't alive back then so I have no idea what things were like.

And, you are right, definitely a lot of diversity, and even then it isn't always black and white - some immigrant families tend to be liberal in some ways but not others.

I would be really surprised if marriage or family issues weren't the culprit, seeing as to how those have played out in my community (limited in scope of course, MOO). I'm sorry to hear about your family, that sort of taboo still exists to some degree in a lot of places today unfortunately.

I wonder if anyone here speaks Farsi/Pashto/Dari and could translate her Jane Doe poster. I think that could really make a dent. I know this was publicized in Seattle but AFAIK not really a relatively huge Persian population there and it's been decades. I don't imagine that it would have reached much of the Persian community especially because we didn't even know she was Persian until recently. I'm sure someone would recognize her today, this was recent enough.
 
  • #1,035
Does she have an updated poster with the new genealogy information?
 
  • #1,036
I find myself wondering whether 'Mary's" Persian ancestors were relatively recent or not.

I have a cousin who got a DNA test result for Persian ancestry, among others. However, her maternal ancestors are traceable, using records from the 1700s, to Eastern Europe from the prior century, and her paternal ancestors were also European. If my cousin's DNA result was correct, Persian ancestry would be at least a few hundred years ago, perhaps many centuries.

DId the DNA taken from "Mary" indicate recent Persian ancestry? I am guessing it does, but I'm not sure. Isotopes alone can be misleading.
 
  • #1,037
I find myself wondering whether 'Mary's" Persian ancestors were relatively recent or not.

I have a cousin who got a DNA test result for Persian ancestry, among others. However, her maternal ancestors are traceable, using records from the 1700s, to Eastern Europe from the prior century, and her paternal ancestors were also European. If my cousin's DNA result was correct, Persian ancestry would be at least a few hundred years ago, perhaps many centuries.

DId the DNA taken from "Mary" indicate recent Persian ancestry? I am guessing it does, but I'm not sure. Isotopes alone can be misleading.
I am quite certain Othram did a thorough job as always and it is her DNA that showed recent Persian or Afghan heritage, not Isotopes.

I also think she emigrated with a spouse. Got divorced or widowed and fell into depression. Probably had no family in the US.

JMOO
 
  • #1,038
I find myself wondering whether 'Mary's" Persian ancestors were relatively recent or not.

I have a cousin who got a DNA test result for Persian ancestry, among others. However, her maternal ancestors are traceable, using records from the 1700s, to Eastern Europe from the prior century, and her paternal ancestors were also European. If my cousin's DNA result was correct, Persian ancestry would be at least a few hundred years ago, perhaps many centuries.

DId the DNA taken from "Mary" indicate recent Persian ancestry? I am guessing it does, but I'm not sure. Isotopes alone can be misleading.
I think there's a pretty big difference between being 100% Persian/Afghan, and getting a small percentage of heritage in a DNA test. A lot of people get small amounts of historical carryover. I'm a Brit who's taken a few of these tests and I always get a decent amount of Scandinavian DNA, but it just means my DNA is in some ways similar to their reference panels from those countries, because of a lot of Vikings coming to live in north England. Also worth noting that anything less that 5% tends to be inaccurate noise.

Some Eastern Europeans do have an amount of DNA from South Asia/Middle East because of inward migration, especially anyone who has Romani ancestors - which is quite common in Romania/Hungary/Bulgaria/Serbia/Slovakia particularly. So your cousin's results could be explained by that, but as far as what we've been told, it does appear this doe has 100% (or near enough) Persian DNA which indicates recent ancestry.
 
  • #1,039
I think there's a pretty big difference between being 100% Persian/Afghan, and getting a small percentage of heritage in a DNA test. A lot of people get small amounts of historical carryover. I'm a Brit who's taken a few of these tests and I always get a decent amount of Scandinavian DNA, but it just means my DNA is in some ways similar to their reference panels from those countries, because of a lot of Vikings coming to live in north England. Also worth noting that anything less that 5% tends to be inaccurate noise.

Some Eastern Europeans do have an amount of DNA from South Asia/Middle East because of inward migration, especially anyone who has Romani ancestors - which is quite common in Romania/Hungary/Bulgaria/Serbia/Slovakia particularly. So your cousin's results could be explained by that, but as far as what we've been told, it does appear this doe has 100% (or near enough) Persian DNA which indicates recent ancestry.
I find myself wondering whether 'Mary's" Persian ancestors were relatively recent or not.

I have a cousin who got a DNA test result for Persian ancestry, among others. However, her maternal ancestors are traceable, using records from the 1700s, to Eastern Europe from the prior century, and her paternal ancestors were also European. If my cousin's DNA result was correct, Persian ancestry would be at least a few hundred years ago, perhaps many centuries.

DId the DNA taken from "Mary" indicate recent Persian ancestry? I am guessing it does, but I'm not sure. Isotopes alone can be misleading.
I’m in no way an expert on genealogy, so both of you could totally be right. My two cents though is that, appearance alone, she looks unmistakeably Iranian/Persian to me. It’s the first thing I thought when I saw her face. I’ve spent a lot of time with Balkan/Southeastern European people as well and I doubt that would be it… but, JMO, I am not even remotely an expert, lol.
 
  • #1,040
I find myself wondering whether 'Mary's" Persian ancestors were relatively recent or not.

I have a cousin who got a DNA test result for Persian ancestry, among others. However, her maternal ancestors are traceable, using records from the 1700s, to Eastern Europe from the prior century, and her paternal ancestors were also European. If my cousin's DNA result was correct, Persian ancestry would be at least a few hundred years ago, perhaps many centuries.

DId the DNA taken from "Mary" indicate recent Persian ancestry? I am guessing it does, but I'm not sure. Isotopes alone can be misleading.
They wouldn't have announced it if it wasn't significant. Hence, they believe it's likely her culture, family etc, not just her DNA. It's all about identifying her. Let's say she also has trace amounts of Russian/Eastern European. Well, it wouldn't do any good to announce it, because she was not likely raised Russian or Eastern European.
 

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