Was Burke involved?

[Venom]

I have never ridiculed or maligned anyone.

As far as I know, no one has attempted to explain the logic of killing one child to protect another.

Not one mother has said she would even think of the same thing.

There is a lot of offence being taken but I am not out to offend anyone - merely obtain a coherent logical idea of BDI.

The entire argument rests on an adult killing a child to protect another child - without this, BDI literally IS impossible.

So how many people would do the same thing?

BBM- Here's my post from yesterday.

Yes, but what would affluent, panicked parents do when they came upon the scene, especially if JBR had her pants off and there was reason to believe something else was going on? Now let's say they happen on the scene and JBR is unconcious, lathergic, cold to the touch, shallow breathing and they think she's already dead......Do they want to risk a public fall from grace? Looked at and judged by their peers, church friends, business associates? Or what about their son being taken away?
Now they have all those thoughts, shock of what you found, grief, stress and an idea comes up to try to save their only son and their family from the stigma of what happened.

Mybelle, when do you think they decided to throw BR under the bus?

 

[SapphireSteel]

As I've said before... I think Patsy believed she was already dead. She was unconscious and very very near death.
She wouldn't have survived the head wound.
Have you ever seen someone die? When my dad died, ( the life support had been shut off he survived for about 3 hours. ) That last 30 minutes... He appeared dead. I would have bet my life he was. I was shocked by the monitors indicating differently.




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I have had a cat die in my arms.

I felt her soul leave, personality, life, whatever you want to call it, I FELT it go.

Jonbenet would not have had such a gentle death.

She was brutally attacked and left to die. She would not pass away quietly like an elderly person off life support or a cat paralysed by a snake.

She would have suffered agony. She would have ragged breathing, perhaps still been able to try to speak, for quite some time. Certainly she pulled against the restraints that were being applied to her tiny wrists.

There is no way any loving mother would busy herself writing a fake ransom note, while her baby's life was noisily expiring in the other room.

This literally is an impossibility.

The entire fact we are here, adults who can read and write and have opinions from opposite sides of the world, owes itself to the eons of MOTHERS who have protected their children. Our mothers are the reason we didn't starve as babies, wander into rivers as toddlers, under cars as older children. Mothers are hard wired to protect their children and have been doing so since we collectively crawled out of the swamp.

The fact that PR did not protect JB indicates that PR is the one who hurt JB in the first place.

I'm sorry if you find that maligning your theory or dismissing it, but it is what it is. A universal truth. Sheep look after their babies. Possums. Snails. Even cuttlefish do a better job than the Ramseys.

Protecting Burke just doesn't wash as motive. She would protect JB too, ie call 911.

She didn't just turn her back either, she (arguably) wiped JB down, garroted her, snapped off her own paintbrush, pulled JB's underwear off, and brutalised her with it, while she was groaning in agony and gasping for life.

That is not the act of a parent protecting a child. It is the act of a parent attempting to protect themselves.

Under what circumstances could you see yourself killing one child to save another?


My bet is, none. :cow:

 

[Linda7NJ]

Yes like Lacey before him he's done untold damage to the Truth which died that night alongside Jonbenet.





All in the name of selling a few books.



:moo:

"How do you explain the fact that the grand jury indicted the Ramsey's for:

On or between Dec. 25 and Dec. 26, 1996 in Boulder County, Colo., John Bennett Ramsey did unlawfully, knowingly, recklessly and feloniously permit a child to be unreasonably placed in a situation which posed a threat of injury to the child's life or health, which resulted in the death of JonBenet Ramsey, a child under the age of sixteen.

And:

On or between Dec. 25 and Dec. 26, 1996 in Boulder County, Colo., John Bennett Ramsey did unlawfully, knowingly and feloniously render assistance to a person, with intent to hinder, delay and prevent the discovery, detention, apprehension, prosecution, conviction and punishment of such person for the commission of a crime, knowing the person being assisted has committed and was suspected of the crime of Murder in the First Degree and Child Abuse Resulting in Death"

And Burke REMAINED in their home?

CPS would have REMOVED him and placed him in fostercare or another relative for his own safety.

They didn't. He remain in the custody of his PARENTS who were INDICTED!!!!





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[Venom]

BBM. The idea that an innocent person has valuable information about a crime is one not grounded in anything remotely logical.

Isn't crimestoppers based on just that. innocent people calling in tips or information about a crime.

 

[bettybaby00]

It doesn't look like an accident if she's discovered pantyless and bleeding. The head bash could very well have been an "accident" not intended to kill her, just quiet her.

Given that scenario along with my belief she appeared dead

How would that look? How would she explain that?

I can understand Patsy with her need to present as perfect going to the dramatic extreme.


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BBM

Pretty much, I mean C. Wecht said if she had been brought into the emergency room her father would have been arrested on the spot.

 

[Linda7NJ]

I have had a cat die in my arms.



I felt her soul leave, personality, life, whatever you want to call it, I FELT it go.



Jonbenet would not have had such a gentle death.



She was brutally attacked and left to die. She would not pass away quietly like an elderly person off life support or a cat paralysed by a snake.



She would have suffered agony. She would have ragged breathing, perhaps still been able to try to speak, for quite some time. Certainly she pulled against the restraints that were being applied to her tiny wrists.



There is no way any loving mother would busy herself writing a fake ransom note, while her baby's life was noisily expiring in the other room.



This literally is an impossibility.



The entire fact we are here, adults who can read and write and have opinions from opposite sides of the world, owes itself to the eons of MOTHERS who have protected their children. Our mothers are the reason we didn't starve as babies, wander into rivers as toddlers, under cars as older children. Mothers are hard wired to protect their children and have been doing so since we collectively crawled out of the swamp.



The fact that PR did not protect JB indicates that PR is the one who hurt JB in the first place.



I'm sorry if you find that maligning your theory or dismissing it, but it is what it is. A universal truth. Sheep look after their babies. Possums. Snails. Even cuttlefish do a better job than the Ramseys.



Protecting Burke just doesn't wash as motive. She would protect JB too, ie call 911.



She didn't just turn her back either, she (arguably) wiped JB down, garroted her, snapped off her own paintbrush, pulled JB's underwear off, and brutalised her with it, while she was groaning in agony and gasping for life.



That is not the act of a parent protecting a child. It is the act of a parent attempting to protect themselves.



Under what circumstances could you see yourself killing one child to save another?





My bet is, none. :cow:

You certainly could be right. My second favorite theory is PASTY all PATSY

But why would John lie? If he loved his son, would he allow Patsy access to him after that?
Why would Burke lie?


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[Chelly]

Isn't crimestoppers based on just that. innocent people calling in tips or information about a crime.

Bravo!

 

[gramcracker]

BBM
Linda Arndt, 03.08.00 (LA v. BPD):

"25 Q. And you had lost track of John Ramsey for a

Page 117

1 period between 10:40 and twelve o'clock?

2 A. No.

3 Q. You didn't see him during that period of

4 time; is that correct?

5 A. No.

6 Q. It's not correct?

7 A. That is not correct."​

link?

 

[SapphireSteel]

Do you believe an intruder did it?


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No.

I think the answers are there despite all the flim flam, lies, blame, questionable politicians, dodgy LE etc.

The answer is - the most simple of all - the parents did it.

WHY? Best guess - a variety of personality disorders and psychopathy. Same old same old, kids get abused and murdered every day in our society, almost always by their "loved ones".

What's unusual is the Ramseys were able to afford to run their own PR campaign.

Being narcissists, they rose admirably to the challenge, in fact one of them is still at it.

 

[Linda7NJ]

link?

I know this wasn't for me.
IIRC that was a deposition for a lawsuit Linda A. had filed, she lost.

Her own police report states differently. That John was "missing" she believed he went for his mail.
Iirc he was missing for 1 hour 20 minutes.
John admits to being gone " for a walk in the hills" for 30 minutes.


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[bettybaby00]

Thanks for the link.

Just ad I suspected, Kolar skips over the parental involvement especially of John.

Just not good enough and proof the author was attempting to spin the facts into a BDI theory to sell books.

Moo and all that.

.

Trying to catch up...

Idk why the poster gave you that link? Not exactly a typical link to provide regarding a book review, especially when the bloggers views are in direct contrast to Kolars.

[modsnip]

 

[SapphireSteel]

You certainly could be right. My second favorite theory is PASTY all PATSY

But why would John lie? If he loved his son, would he allow Patsy access to him after that?
Why would Burke lie?


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John lied because he had to.

Why did he have to? Ask Patsy.

My theory as you know revolves around daddy's Christmas present.

Sick but so is the entire thing.

The only possible explanation is they were both guilty. Maybe not of the same crimes, but they both shared blame.

Burke really was asleep all night, in my opinion. They were so busy conniving they actually forgot about him...or Patsy attempted to frame him, she left his pocket knife there.

 

[Venom]

<snipped>

The only snark I have noticed has come from the BDI theorists who seem so defensive they wont even outline their own theories...!

Its all very well telling people to "scroll up" instead of sharing your theories sensibly, but this response does make the responder look evasive and unsure of their own theory.

<snipped>

Yes, but what would affluent, panicked parents do when they came upon the scene, especially if JBR had her pants off and there was reason to believe something else was going on? Now let's say they happen on the scene and JBR is unconcious, lathergic, cold to the touch, shallow breathing and they think she's already dead......Do they want to risk a public fall from grace? Looked at and judged by their peers, church friends, business associates? Or what about their son being taken away?
Now they have all those thoughts, shock of what you found, grief, stress and an idea comes up to try to save their only son and their family from the stigma of what happened.

Mybelle, when do you think they decided to throw BR under the bus?

I said it pretty plainly a few posts back, IMO.

Accidental head injury, assumed she was dead (shallow breathing, undetected due to panic and/or assumption), sent BR to bed, staged cover up not realizing the asphyxiation is what caused her ultimate death.

JMO.

Alright, here is my long, drawn out theory.

The family comes home from the parties, JBR is awake. I believe BR over the parents on this one, sorry. PR is busy upstairs preparing for the trip, JR goes to bed. The kids have a snack in the dining room and then they either go up to the bedroom or down to the basement (flashlight in the dark?). It doesn't take force for a brother to get a sister to go somewhere, if he knows what will convince her to go (presents? a secret? a surprise?).

As has happened a few times already, BR proceeds to experiment with JBR and for the most part, she isn't struggling. He likely told her it's ok or whatever. I won't get into it too deeply, sibling sexual abuse is disturbing (although fairly common). At some point, she gets too loud (scream?) and maybe she fights back, so he hits her with the flashlight. Or maybe even it happens while they are doing something else, there is literally no way to know what precisely led to the bash.

BR, in a panic after JBR collapses, runs upstairs and tells mom what happened. She wakes JR and they go downstairs (or to the bedroom), see JBR in a heap on the floor (or bed) and tell BR everything will be ok, we'll take care of it, go to bed, and stay in your room no matter what. He's likely scared, thinking he is in deep trouble, and most kids in that situation will stay the heck put out of fear of more trouble.

The parents proceed to stage the scene. JR cleans her up, strangles her (not realizing she's still "alive"), etc., while PR writes that ridiculous note.

Maybe they planned to take her body somewhere. Maybe they decided they couldn't leave the house, maybe one of them refused to let the other go alone. Or maybe PR jumped the gun and called 911 before JR was ready.

Some things to note:
We don't know that any other Ramsey's DNA was NOT on JBR. We only know their DNA doesn't match the mixed sample of FOREIGN DNA on her waistband.
BR would NOT know about the staging and ransom note ("what did you find?") because he could have been sent upstairs and was not present for it. If it's his voice on the 911 call, maybe he heard Mom's frantic call and came downstairs or something.

I don't see why that is so completely implausible in the face of everything else.

ALL JMO. We all have THEORIES, nothing more. I'm pretty sure my theory is just as likely, possible, plausible as a plethora of other theories. If anyone knew for sure, we wouldn't be here discussing it. :facepalm:

That is pretty close to my theory of Burke's involvement, with one major difference. I think the staging was all Patsy. I don't think John knew about any of it until the next day as it dawned on him probably starting with recognizing Patsy's Handwriting on the RN and also her style. There are a few reasons why I lean to Patsy staging alone.

1. The RN. I don't believe he dictated the note, and I don't even believe he saw it ahead of time. It was too utterly absurd over the top, over dramatic. In other words it was Patsy. I don't believe if John had seen that note it would have been used. Too obvious and ridiculous.
2. Their behavior to one another the next morning. I believe if they had been acting together all night to stage, they would have been more in tune with one another on the morning of the 26th. I don't think John would ever have insisted there were not signs of an intruder or fessed up about having broken the basement window. That window as a perfect "out". If he knew what had really happened to JB, why wouldn't he have just feigned ignorance?
3. I do think it is stretching it to believe that neither parent would call for help after seeing JB injured and to think that they both assumed she was beyond help. I think it is far more likely that one parent would make the decisions that followed than that they would both be on the same page about it all. Since, in my opinion, there is no doubt the Patsy wrote the RN that means she was the parent. Again IMO.

Perhaps Burke simply enjoyed molesting her? Maybe JonBenet was a willing participant up till that night.
Maybe after their snack they were told to go to bed. Patsy busied herself with last minute whatever... Burke tells JonBenet he found wrapped gifts in the basement ...they go...to the basement.
Burke begins molesting her again, maybe he's the one that inserted the end of the paintbrush in her and she screamed. To shut her up, he whacks her with whatever was handy, like a golf club.

He leaves her, undressed and bleeding.

Patsy gets around to checking on the kids, maybe to do final bed tucking, she discovers JonBenet isn't in hers. But Burkes in his, pretending to be asleep. She searches the house, finds JonBenet outside the train room where the urine spot is. She immediately knows what happened and who did it. JonBenet appears to be dead. She spends the next 45- minutes to an hour grieving and fearing for her son, herself... And decides to make it appear an intruder kidnapped her daughter.

She wipes away blood from her vaginal area, redresses JonBenet, wraps her up, and moves her to the WC and adds tape& cord and blocks the door to the train room with the chair. She removed or hid other evidence like JonBenet's size 6 panties

Upstairs she writes the note.

Maybe John finding her AFTER what Patsy & Burke had done earlier decided to hide the body and moved it to the WC and covered her with the blanket. Hoping to be able to smuggle the body out on his plane? When he discovered that wasn't going to happen. He "found" her ... He was still very eager to get on that plane less than 30 minutes after finding his daughter dead for that " important meeting"

All IMO a possibility.



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RBBM- I went back and found you some of the theories that were posted.

 

[gramcracker]

I know this wasn't for me.
IIRC that was a deposition for a lawsuit Linda A. had filed, she lost.

Her own police report states differently. That John was "missing" she believed he went for his mail.
Iirc he was missing for 1 hour 20 minutes.
John admits to being gone " for a walk in the hills" for 30 minutes.

right, but I wanted to read all of it in context. I found some of it at ACR but not that exact line of questioning

the walk in the hills was later that evening when they were headquartered at the Fernie house, after he retained Bynum

 

[Linda7NJ]

John lied because he had to.



Why did he have to? Ask Patsy.



My theory as you know revolves around daddy's Christmas present.



Sick but so is the entire thing.



The only possible explanation is they were both guilty. Maybe not of the same crimes, but they both shared blame.



Burke really was asleep all night, in my opinion. They were so busy conniving they actually forgot about him...or Patsy attempted to frame him, she left his pocket knife there.

Well IMO, we know only Patsy could have known the location of that knife.


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[SapphireSteel]

RBBM- I went back and found you some of the theories that were posted.

Thank you.

Each scenario calls for Patsy saving one child not the other, which is why each scenario falls apart for me.

Logically, she would attempt to save both.

Can any mother in here name a scenario where you would allow one child to die to save another?

:cow:

 

[Venom]

John lied because he had to.

Why did he have to? Ask Patsy.

My theory as you know revolves around daddy's Christmas present.

Sick but so is the entire thing.

The only possible explanation is they were both guilty. Maybe not of the same crimes, but they both shared blame.

Burke really was asleep all night, in my opinion. They were so busy conniving they actually forgot about him...or Patsy attempted to frame him, she left his pocket knife there.

Here of late I've been on a BDI theory, but your theory is in the running for my second choice.

 

[Venom]

Thank you.

Each scenario calls for Patsy saving one child not the other, which is why each scenario falls apart for me.

Logically, she would attempt to save both.

Can any mother in here name a scenario where you would allow one child to die to save another?

:cow:

What if the one was past saving? Or couldn't even be saved?

 

[Linda7NJ]

John lied because he had to.



Why did he have to? Ask Patsy.



My theory as you know revolves around daddy's Christmas present.



Sick but so is the entire thing.



The only possible explanation is they were both guilty. Maybe not of the same crimes, but they both shared blame.



Burke really was asleep all night, in my opinion. They were so busy conniving they actually forgot about him...or Patsy attempted to frame him, she left his pocket knife there.

IMO there is far more evidence for BDI than Patsy was giving John a special Christmas present.

Only evidence linking John at all to the crime scene are those fibers.

So basically, you have far far less evidence, even anecdotal evidence for your theory than has been very well documented here on the BDI thread.


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[SapphireSteel]

Well IMO, we know only Patsy could have known the location of that knife.


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Every time I try to contemplate what she was thinking, I fail. It's all just so unbelievable.

I just have to put her in the "incomprehensible" category along with Karla Homolka, Jodi Arias, Susan Smith.

You just wouldn't believe it if you didn't know it's true.