Was Burke involved?

[questfortrue]

Very well said babybetty.

I also understand Scarlett, Anyhoo etc.

This is very subjective to personal tendencies and behaviors. I am an entirety of information person- I would have to read every last word. I would have to understand what I was facing... who I was dealing with. I would have to know exactly what was expected of me. EXACTLY. The note, in my mind would be the only tendril... link... to my child. That is just me.

But as you said- in the entirety of things with the Ramsey's this adds one more layer.

Thank you, Frigga, you are a voice of reason.

Noticed the question “why” comes up on the forum a lot. Why didn’t PR read the whole note, why did AH act the way he did, why did ML shield the R’s? Not sure of PR’s motivations for not reading the whole note, but ML provides us with further insight into her thought processes:
ML in defense of her arrest of John Mark Karr: “You know, I’m not embarrassed. I feel bad for a community that questions what we did because, you know, they’ve lost some trust in the system.”

AH, well, imo, he’s a little more enigmatic. Quote from McKinley and Peter Boyles dialogue:
PB: Kind enough to be with us, Carol McKinley, from Fox News who as I said before I don't think anybody has done the heavy lifting like she has on the Ramsey investigation. This story is in the morning Daily Camera: "Boulder DA Alex Hunter has turned over "new information" on a, he says he could provide, a quote, and this is the quote, Carol, "a major breakthrough in solving the JonBenet Ramsey murder case". Why is he saying these kinds of things?
CM: Well, I think the police are saying it's a bunch of crap.
PB: Sure it is. But why would Hunter say it isn't?
CM: I think he has a lot of motivations that, that we don't understand.

And the last, bonus answer to the question about Why the killer hasn’t been caught, provided by JR himself:
JR on Nightline about the Killer: “He’s either alive, dead or in prison, and one
of those three.”
:crazy:

All mho.

 

[otg]

(snipped)

Do you have an opinion of if BR left his Hi-Tech shoeprints on the moldy floor in the WC concrete room hellhole? IIRC, shoe print measured size 8 1/2.

The Hi-Tec shoeprint... It has been confirmed by at least three sources that Burke did have a pair, despite Ramsey denials. This is a similar pair to Burke's, described as having a compass on the laces:

But if you look closely, the Hi-Tec emblem (I think it's called a poon) doesn't appear to be the same design as that found in the print on the WC floor.

My understanding is that the size of the print could not be determined by the Hi-Tec emblem alone. However if you compare the CS photo of the print to the same picture in which I've added black marks to where I believe the outer edges of the shoe would be, I believe investigators should have had enough information to determine the shoe size. (Photos attached at bottom.) That being said, I never heard or read what that size was. Where did the size 8-1/2 you quoted come from? I'm not disputing it, I just never heard it before (but then, there's a lot I'm sure I've missed).

In total, I don't think this shoe print either confirms or disputes Burke's presence in the WC. There are too many other possibilities to allow placing too much emphasis on the print (IMO).

Is the reason the head blow occurs, in your theory, because 9yo Burke wishes to quieten her scream(s) as he is about to rape his sister whom he has placed in binds? Or they are playing doctor but accidentally the cord chokes JBR. BR tells the parents, who do, what they did.

I happen to believe there was a scream (some don't). I think it was a reaction to her being vaginally injured. I think the cord was already around her neck, and the head blow was dealt to stop her scream. I don't believe Burke is responsible for any of the staging or "undoing". I think the scream was heard on the third floor, but by the time they could react, JonBenet was already dead.

I cannot yet leap to BR initially placing the cord in a knot around JBRs neck and an accident occurring. That forces the alarmed parents into the CS picture within minutes and no later.

Correct.

The knots. I can envision BR fashioning knots. It is what guys do in Boulder when they climb rock. Evidence of knot practicing is the wire found outside the basement windows of the room next to the WC concrete hellhole. And another wire was discovered in the WC near the body.

OMO

And also the outline on the WC floor of what I think is a carabiner (which may have been attached to a section of cord that was found lying around), used in rock climbing (See post here).

Hi-Tec print on WC floor:

 

[DeDee]

Greetings, otg. I have gone through a methodical elimination process of [my own] list of suspects. When studying BR, I discovered the screenshot of the "adult Dr. Seuss book inside" the suitcase. I do not precisely recall when I determined the WC boot print to be a size 8½. However, it was prior to discussions w/dem on the premed thread.

(snipped)The Hi-Tec shoeprint... It has been confirmed by at least three sources that Burke did have a pair, despite Ramsey denials. <RSBM>

Correct.

That being said, I never heard or read what that size was. Where did the size 8-1/2 you quoted come from? I'm not disputing it, I just never heard it before (but then, there's a lot I'm sure I've missed).

I remain a bit confused over the usage of the word the size 8½ statement:

"Although police said they do not think the man was involved in the December 1996 killing of JonBenét, Beckner ordered the size 8½ boots tested this month just to be "thorough."

A partial footprint from a Hi-Tec boot was found at the Ramsey crime scene and remains unexplained."

http://web.dailycamera.com/extra/ramsey/2000/01aboot.html

It is written here that the size was 9½ although not while under oath.

http://www.acandyrose.com/s-evidence-prints-hand-foot.htm

From the Premed thread

RSBM for topic

I also found a chart of shoe & clothing sizes for children -- it might help us narrow down BR's shoe size (prolly between size 3 and 5) and height (prolly not 5 feet tall yet).

see http://www.childrensalon.com/size-guide/

And thanks for your post and for the picture, DeDee. He still looks a lot like a little boy, doesn't he? I didn't know -- or have forgotten (!) -- that he saw a psychiatrist for 2 years after the event. Hmmmm. That says lots, IMO.

Dem, RSBM

According to the chart, the owner of the size 8 1/2 Hi-Tech print in the wine cellar should be well over the age of sixteen. Obviously, this does not eliminate BR from being present in the basement; only that the Hi-Tech print does not belong to him.

At 6yo, JonBenet likely wore a size 6 in clothing and size 12 shoe while Burke, at 9yo, nearly ten, likely wore a size 10 in clothing and a size 3 - 5 shoe. BR was 9 - 12" taller than his sister at her TOD. They were both of thin to normal stature.

According to their interviews, JonBenet's pediatrician supplied/provided Patsy with prescription medications and Burke's psychiatrist was the physician who prescribed drugs to JR following the death of his daughter.

In high school, BR averaged a B+ and performed on the swim team. BR did well in college, exiting with gainful employment in the field of IT. His most recent girlfriend closely resembles an age-progressed image of JonBenet.

The image below is otg's and shared from otg's post http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10167198&postcount=51]

Although statistics would prove it to be rare, the physical and psychological requirements to perform the grueling task of the strangulation asphyxiation, the painful sexual assault, and the despicable skull fracture, that ran the entire length of JonBenet's head in Dec. '96, could possibly be attributed to a 9yom.

Is it a stretch to conclude that only one person hit her head with deadly force and that same person placed a ligature garrote around her throat? To agree with that particular statement may indicate that there is no way BR killed his sister unless it was premeditated for a much longer amount of time than simply hearing her scream. If it is at this point when a parent, or both, becomes involved, how is it then decided so hastily that a ligature with a garrote and a RN is the way to go about making the crime appear to be an IDI?

The killer screwed up by not taking into consideration the duct that led to the home's SE corner exterior where the shrill, piercing scream awakened the neighbor from a light sleep. Her husband, who was beside her, then heard the sound of metal scraping against concrete.

Not because it fits any particular theory do I sincerely believe JonBenet screamed, thus, rattling the killer. Not to the point that the head blow necessarily occurs but she was in the extreme corner of the basement in a windowless room where it was NEVER intended for anyone to hear a sound from her struggling resistance. A study of the R floor plan tells us that much.

There is an image, unavailable to me at the moment, that depicts the duct that carried the sound of her scream into the outdoors that is not shown in the floor plan linked below. Ever the performer, for seven hours, Patsy remained hysterical in the sunroom directly over the windowless hellhole where her daughter's body was located. And she knew it. She wrote the RN. Without a doubt, for those seven hours, she knew JonBenet lay beneath her in the hellhole down below.

http://braveheart.users4.50megs.com/ramsey/exploded_view.htm

I happen to believe there was a scream (some don't). I think it was a reaction to her being vaginally injured. I think the cord was already around her neck, and the head blow was dealt to stop her scream. I don't believe Burke is responsible for any of the staging or "undoing". I think the scream was heard on the third floor, but by the time they could react, JonBenet was already dead.

Still have difficulty placing the nylon cord and sexual assault on BRs shoulders. :innocent:

And also the outline on the WC floor of what I think is a carabiner

Yes. And where the outline of the carabiner print is located in the CS image resembled a bare foot, the size JBR would have, according to LS. Your well presented facts decry LS.

BR did not wear an adult size shoe, 8½ or 9½ or otherwise, in 1996. BR wore a youth size 3-5.

http://www.acandyrose.com/s-evidence-prints-hand-foot.htm

14 Q. Do you recall a period of time,
15 prior to 1996, when your son Burke purchased
16 a pair of hiking boots that had compasses on
17 the shoelaces? And if it helps to
18 remember --
19 A. I can't remember.
20 Q. Maybe this will help your
21 recollection. They were shoes that were
22 purchased while he was shopping with you in
23 Atlanta.
24 MR. WOOD: Are you stating that
25 as a fact?

0123
1 MR. LEVIN: I am stating that as
2 a fact. 3 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Does that help
4 refresh your recollection as to whether he
5 owned a pair of shoes that had compasses on
6 them?
7 A. I just can't remember. Bought so
8 many shoes for him.
<snip>
19 A. I can't remember the shoes. I
20 remember he had a compass thing like a
21 watch, but I can't remember about the shoes.
22 Q. You don't remember him having
23 shoes that you purchased with compasses on
24 them?
<snip>
11 THE WITNESS: No, I didn't know
12 that.
13 Q. (By Mr. Levin) I will state this
14 as a fact. There are two people who have
15 provided us with information, including your
16 son, that he owned Hi-Tec shoes prior to the
17 murder of your daughter.
18 MR. WOOD: You are stating that
19 Burke Ramsey has told you he owned Hi-Tec
20 shoes?
21 MR. LEVIN: Yes.

*************
http://www.acandyrose.com/s-evidence-prints-hand-foot.htm

Bottom line: BR owned a pair of HiTech boots. Undated unmatched HiTech boot prints were left in the WC mold. We cannot conclusively connect them to the CS.

OMO

 

[SapphireSteel]

Will a BDI answer this question?

If B was involved, why did he ask "what did you find?" in the 911 call?

 

[DeeDee249]

Of course, one of the defense team's tricks was to delay the interviews so long that "I don't remember" could be replied to just about anything. I'm a mother, too. If I had bought my son a pair of boots/sneakers/shoes that had compasses in the laces I'd remember them, no matter how long ago.
"Ramnesia" was their saving grace.

 

[DeeDee249]

Will a BDI answer this question?

If B was involved, why did he ask "what did you find?" in the 911 call?

The 911 call is not crystal clear. If that is what he said, keep in mind that if BDI, he didn't do ALL of it, at least IMO. Molestation -yes. Head bash (to stop her screaming) - yes. Carrying her to the basement (assuming she was bashed elsewhere) NO. Strangulation, NO. Staging (including wiping her down and redressing her) NO. So assuming BDI up to an including the head bash, he ma not have been aware his sister had been strangled, staged and hidden in the basement. He would be aware that his parents knew he had bashed her and been sent to his room at that point. In his mind, there was nothing to "find" because his parents came when they heard her scream. Later, when he heard them talking, he asked what they "found". Or he may not have been referring to JB when he asked that.
The most vexing (I love that word) thing is that I believe BR remembers very well what happened that night, regardless of the level of his involvement. And his refusal to speak to LE when asked just a few years ago speaks volumes about that. For his lawyer to say "he has nothing to add" is just crap, IMO. Even if he had nothing to add, why not at least TRY to help? NONE of the family (and that included grandparents, aunts, uncles) have ever done anything to try to help solve the crime. They have met inquiries with a wall of silence.
IMO, only the guilty (or people with knowledge of others' guilt) refuse to cooperate with LE.

 

[SapphireSteel]

The 911 call is not crystal clear. If that is what he said, keep in mind that if BDI, he didn't do ALL of it, at least IMO. Molestation -yes. Head bash (to stop her screaming) - yes. Carrying her to the basement (assuming she was bashed elsewhere) NO. Strangulation, NO. Staging (including wiping her down and redressing her) NO. So assuming BDI up to an including the head bash, he ma not have been aware his sister had been strangled, staged and hidden in the basement. He would be aware that his parents knew he had bashed her and been sent to his room at that point. In his mind, there was nothing to "find" because his parents came when they heard her scream. Later, when he heard them talking, he asked what they "found". Or he may not have been referring to JB when he asked that.
The most vexing (I love that word) thing is that I believe BR remembers very well what happened that night, regardless of the level of his involvement. And his refusal to speak to LE when asked just a few years ago speaks volumes about that. For his lawyer to say "he has nothing to add" is just crap, IMO. Even if he had nothing to add, why not at least TRY to help? NONE of the family (and that included grandparents, aunts, uncles) have ever done anything to try to help solve the crime. They have met inquiries with a wall of silence.
IMO, only the guilty (or people with knowledge of others' guilt) refuse to cooperate with LE.

So your theory is B did the initial assault and the parents finished JB off, each operating seperately to the other?

Why would any parent murder one child to protect another?

Would YOU murder your badly injured child?

Of course not! That's ridiculous!

 

[Charterhouse]

Not so ridiculous if you are protecting your other child and that is all you have left (Casey Anthony) or you had something to hide yourself. I am not condoning either one. But it has been done. JMO

 

[bettybaby00]

I'm sorry but this is one creepy Axx picture.

Was it purposely shot like that? It reminds me of that creepy nicole Kidman movie, the one where she realizes she had killed her kids b/c she finds the pictures in the attic!

 

[Charterhouse]

I'm sorry but this is one creepy Axx picture.

Was it purposely shot like that? It reminds me of that creepy nicole Kidman movie, the one where she realizes she had killed her kids b/c she finds the pictures in the attic!

Everytime I see this picture, I think the same thing.

 

[chlban]

Will a BDI answer this question?

If B was involved, why did he ask "what did you find?" in the 911 call?

Because they were telling the 911 Operator about the Ransom Note which he knew nothing about.

I cannot speak for all BDI's of course, and I am not even 100% BDI myself, but if it was him then I believe he is responsible for the initial assault and the head injury. Everything else, IMO, was staging and I don't think Burke had anything to do with that. I don't think even the heinous Ramsey's would pursue that level of staging while their son stood around and watched.

So I have never found it odd at all that he would ask "what did you find" because I never assumed he meant JonBenet, but instead the RN.

 

[SapphireSteel]

Because they were telling the 911 Operator about the Ransom Note which he knew nothing about.

I cannot speak for all BDI's of course, and I am not even 100% BDI myself, but if it was him then I believe he is responsible for the initial assault and the head injury. Everything else, IMO, was staging and I don't think Burke had anything to do with that. I don't think even the heinous Ramsey's would pursue that level of staging while their son stood around and watched.

So I have never found it odd at all that he would ask "what did you find" because I never assumed he meant JonBenet, but instead the RN.

If the Ramseys were covering up for Burke, he would have been securely in his bedroom, prepped and ready.

HE WOULD HAVE BEEN PART OF THE STAGING.

Burke genuinely didn't know what they "found", ransom note or body - he had no clue because the poor little guy was asleep all the way through.

I think they actually forgot about him. Forgot to prepare him, forgot even that he was in the house.

He woke up due to the commotion.

He clearly had no idea as to what was going on.

 

[chlban]

Not so ridiculous if you are protecting your other child and that is all you have left (Casey Anthony) or you had something to hide yourself. I am not condoning either one. But it has been done. JMO

ITA. Especially if they beleived that JB was injured too severely to ever recover or live a normal life again.

The Casey Anthony analagy is actually quite good and one I have not heard in reference to this case before. But your point is well taken. I believe the Senior Anthonys truly loved that little baby. I have pretty much hated them for a long time now because they covered for their despicable monster of a daughter, instead of seeking justice. However I think it is clear to most any of us that followed that case, they had already lost Caylee, they weren't
ready to let go of the monster as she was what they had left.

Not that I am comparing Burke to the monster though.While I think he was clearly troubled, and who wouldn't be with his whack job mother, and distant father, but he was a child.

 

[Linda7NJ]

If the Ramseys were covering up for Burke, he would have been securely in his bedroom, prepped and ready.



HE WOULD HAVE BEEN PART OF THE STAGING.



Burke genuinely didn't know what they "found", ransom note or body - he had no clue because the poor little guy was asleep all the way through.



I think they actually forgot about him. Forgot to prepare him, forgot even that he was in the house.



He woke up due to the commotion.



He clearly had no idea as to what was going on.

Did you ever hear the end of the 911 tape?

I believe I did on Geraldo... But there has been so much back and forth over this topic, I don't know if I heard a recreation ( that Geraldo claimed in the original airing was the original) or the real thing. All I know for sure.. It was edited out of the original transcript and rerun.


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[Tawny]

HE WOULD HAVE BEEN PART OF THE STAGING.

Burke genuinely didn't know what they "found", ransom note or body - he had no clue because the poor little guy was asleep all the way through.
...

He clearly had no idea as to what was going on.

RSBM

I don't agree. I think they sent him to bed after the accident and said they'd take care of the mess he made. Whether or not they told him she was dead is up for debate, IMO. But I do think they ushered him out, wrote the note, did all the staging, and then shielded him from seeing any of it. So yes, he had NO idea what they found or anything else that happened.

Plausible deniability. If he is clueless about the staging, it could put reasonable doubt in a jury's mind (if it ever came to that).

Why is that "insane"? Just because you don't personally agree with a theory doesn't make that theory insane. I don't agree with IDI but I don't think people are stupid or insane for believing in it.

The goal was to convolute the scene as much as possible, from keeping BR ignorant, to plastering their own DNA all over JBR every chance, to contradicting every single thing they ever said.

 

[Tawny]

Now, I see why I couldn't quote your post calling people insane. It was deleted.

 

[otg]

Will a BDI answer this question?

If B was involved, why did he ask "what did you find?" in the 911 call?

If this is all you have left to question about BDI, SS, I'll try to wrap it up for you (even though I don't really think it will make a difference in your opinion). There are obviously differences in opinion even within BDI theories. When anyone tries to address their reason for objecting (as you do often), they assume each BDI thinks the same as all others. I'll only address my own ideas.

I think Burke is responsible for the sexual assault, the head blow, and the unintentional strangulation. All subsequent actions were done by the parents. I do NOT believe that ANYONE intentionally pulled the cord tight with the intent to cause harm to JonBenet, to "finish her off", or to "end her suffering". I believe (if you've bothered reading any of my posts) that JonBenet was already dead when John and Patsy found her in the basement. I imagine that John told both his wife and his son what to do. Burke's job was to get out of the way and not interfere with what was being done to "protect" him. Every detail of what would be done (and the reason for it) was not explained to him. When all CS changes were done, John told Patsy to call 911. I believe Burke was probably "clinging" to his mom from fear of his dad's wrath when the 911 call was made. He was scared when they said they were calling 911. He asked his mom why they were calling 911. She was answering him when the call was answered and she said, "Hon', we need 'em...", then realized the call had been answered and said, "POLICE!" (I've heard these words on the 911 recording myself.) Don't try and deny that Burke was awake and was instead sleeping soundly during all this, because both he and his parents have admitted and confirmed that he was awake when the call was made. His (or some young male's) voice was heard on the BPD enhanced recording according to investigators who have heard the recording. The recording that was released to the public has the end erased, but some of the words that have been reported are still audible. Patsy can be be heard saying, "Help me, Jesus; help me, Jesus." There are differing versions of what else was heard by investigators, but the most reliable (IMO) is that Burke asked, "What did you find?" John answers (sternly), "We're not speaking to you." To which Burke responds, "But what DID you find?" With the erasure, all that we can hear is, "What did you..." so I don't doubt that this version is correct.

So you ask why would he ask that question. The answer is simple: He didn't know anything about the "ransom note" that he just heard his mother report to 911 (the police) that they had "found". He (and John) thought the phone had been hung up and they were free to talk. When he thought his mother was off the phone, did he ask about his sister? Did he ask if she was okay? Did he ask where she was? Did he ask about the police coming to their house? No. He asked what his mother had "found". John didn't want to have to answer to him, so he said, "We're not speaking to you."

I don't for a moment think Burke was a monster, as you have in the past suggested would be the case if he was responsible for any of this. And like you, I see Burke as a victim more than anything else. He was NOT responsible for his actions. He was, after all, a child himself. I put all ultimate blame on his parents. The situation they created caused this. But even with that said, I still have sympathy for them. I know what they were going through prior to that night, and they made some very bad choices. Who's to say whether any of us would have done anything differently if we were in their shoes. We can say we would -- but do we really know without actually being there?

To sum up my belief, I'll tell you that there was no "murder". No one intentionally strangled that innocent child to end her life. She died as a result of a bad environment, bad individual choices, and bad circumstances that caused her death.

 

[Linda7NJ]

I'm not married firmly to any particular theory except I firmly believe whoever killed her lived in that house & Patsy wrote the note.

My BDI theory is different than the one above. I pretty much exclude John. And I do believe she was purposefully finished off.



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[otg]

I'm not married firmly to any particular theory except I firmly believe whoever killed her lived in that house & Patsy wrote the note.

My BDI theory is different than the one above. I pretty much exclude John. And I do believe she was purposefully finished off.



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That's okay that you disagree with me, Linda. I still love ya'. :loveyou:

 

[Linda7NJ]

That's okay that you disagree with me, Linda. I still love ya'. :loveyou:

Love you too!

And I'm not really disagreeing with you. John could very well have been involved from the start, i just can't wrap my head around him going forward with that ridiculous " ransom" note.



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