Was Burke involved?

[gramcracker]

the FBI said "you will find her body" and "look to the parents"

Much has been made of this statement by a first responder FBI agent. As much in this case it is taken out of context and it is formed to mean what the quoting party wants it to mean rather than what it objectively meant. The FBI agent that made this statement had been trained by John Douglas and it was policy to always “look to the parents” as they are most likely, statistically, to be the perpetrator. That is all the FBI agent was saying he was not inferring, he was speaking generally, to a specific case. That fact is not indicative of the Ramsey's guilt in anyway. Both Douglas and the FBI agent have said as much.

Any good statistician will tell you statistics mean nothing to the individual.

re my bold/above: there were many agents, not just one, who spoke on this issue and they were indeed specifically referring to this specific case and this specific family. because they were convinced of their guilt

James Kolar's Foreign Faction/kindle location 581

The length, content, and details provided by kidnappers in the note immediately raised questions for the investigators who were working the case that morning. The FBI, consulting in the case, had never seen a ransom note of its kind. In their experience, ransom notes were short and sweet and typically provided few details about the perpetrators behind a kidnapping.

Additionally, the note began by formally addressing John Ramsey. By its end, the kidnapper(s) spoke as though they were intimately familiar with John and the family.

kindle location 647

Acting Detective Division Commander Sergeant Larry Mason arrived on the scene at 1320 hours and was accompanied by Denver FBI Supervisory Agent Ron Walker. They had learned of the discovery of JonBenet's body while meeting on the investigation at the Boulder Police Department.

Mason directed the evacuation of the home, now considered to be a crime scene in its entirety. Both he and Walker were reported to have inspected the Wine Cellar before leaving the house.

At approximately 1340 hours, Detective Bill Palmer overheard John Ramsey speaking on the phone and making arrangements to fly to Atlanta that afternoon or evening. Upon the conclusion of the phone call, Palmer told Ramsey that he couldn't leave town as he would need to stay to assist in the investigation of the murder of his daughter.

The nature of this call was passed along to Mason, and he too spoke with Ramsey about leaving town. John Ramsey reportedly told Mason that he had to leave to attend a meeting "he couldn't miss." Sergeant Mason eventually convinced the father of the murdered child of the necessity of remaining in Boulder.

kindle location 663

Detective Division Commander John Eller cut short his vacation and, leaving visiting family from Florida at his home, responded to the police department to direct the investigation.

FBI Supervisory Agent Ron Walker spoke to Eller briefly before leaving the department. Local authorities were responsible for investigating murder, and the FBI no longer had concurrent jurisdiction for a kidnapping,

"You need to look at the parents," he told Eller.

Statistically, only about 6 percent of child murders are committed by strangers. The percentages drop significantly when a child is found murdered in their own home. The veteran FBI agent reiterated that the parents had to be considered in the investigation of the death of the little girl.

kindle location 1916

In the fall of that year, the FBI had invited the Boulder authorities to Quantico to present a review of the elements of their case. Detectives were excited about the opportunity to share the information that had been gathered up to that point in time, and had hoped that the insight of the federal investigators would provide them some leverage with the intruder theorists in the Boulder DA's office.

As teams from both agencies prepared to head to Virginia, Vanity Fair ran an article on the status of the investigation. It was highly critical of Alex Hunter's handling of the case, and a retired federal agent quoted in the article expressed the opinion that the DA's release of police reports to the Ramsey team in advance of their April 1997 interview was tantamount to prosecutorial malfeasance.

The former agent, Greg McCrary, had served 25 years with the FBI and indicated that he had at one time been recruited by one of the Ramsey defense investigators to join their team.

McCrary did not hesitate to decline the offer, and cited his reasons in the article: "Because on a ratio of 12 to 1, child murders are committed by parents or a family member. In this case, you also have an elaborate 'staging' - the ransom note, the placement of the child's body - and I have never in my career seen or heard about a staging where it was not a family member - or someone very close to the family. Just the note alone told me the killer was in the family or close to it."

With regard to the ransom note and practice note found on Patsy's notepad, McCrary went on to say that "Kidnappers do not spend hours at a crime scene after murdering their victims composing letters."

Hunter and his team reportedly were not very happy with the article's portrayal of his office that was now spreading across the country. He ultimately decided not to attend the Quantico presentation and sent senior members of his command staff instead.

Boulder investigators spent a couple days sharing the details of their case, discussed the theories that had been proposed, and listened to suggested avenues of investigation as proposed by the experts who comprised the CASKU (Child Abduction Serial Killer Unit) team.

Members of the FBI had been in fairly regular consultation with Boulder detectives throughout the course of the investigation, but this was the first opportunity they had had to participate in a detailed overview of the evidence collected thus far in the case.

The FBI agents continued to point out that statistics and case histories pointed to parental, family, or insider involvement, when a child was murdered in the home. Stranger abductions were far and few between, and their cumulative experience suggested that authorities needed to continue to take a hard look at the parents.

In reviewing similar cases, there had only been one instance in which a child had been taken for ransom and then found murdered in the home: it was the JonBenet Ramsey homicide investigation.

The agents also expressed the belief that Patsy had authored the ransom note after the death of JonBenet as a means of covering up the murder. Although it was possible, they considered it highly unlikely that an intruder would have spent the time to have written the note while in the home.

The additional evidence of a staged crime scene led them to further discount the intruder-kidnapper theory.

Boulder prosecutors reportedly were adamant in their denial that either John or Patsy Ramsey could have been involved in the murder of their daughter. It was reported that voices were raised, and that the table had taken a pounding during the heated debate.

Boulder investigators went away from the Quantico presentation with the feeling that not much ground had been gained during their review of the case. Prosecutors had not been swayed in the least by the FBI's professional assessment of the case, and they appeared to be dead set against any theory of the crime that involved the parents.

kindle location 2106

There were a number of prosecutors and investigators in the sheriff's department who believed in Smit's theory, and the separation between these agencies and Boulder PD investigators continued to widen. Boulder investigators could not understand how Smit and others in his camp excluded certain key pieces of physical evidence and behavioral clues that pointed to family involvement.

In other instances, intruder theorists outright dismissed the opinions of the outside experts who had continued to consult on the case. This included insight provided by members of the FBI's Behavior Analysis and Child Abduction Serial Killer Units. Their interpretation of the circumstances involced in the case led them to counsel BPD investigators to continue their inquiry into the family.

kindle location 3531

FBI agents shared another word of advice. The circumstances surrounding this crime led them to believe that two hands were involved in this murder.

 

[Frigga]

Unbelievable. Thank you gramcracker.

 

[bettybaby00]

Mama2JML, I like your last post.
Obstructionist....I think that is a word that could often be used in this case.
Even now it seems like an appropriate word to use.
Obstructionist (n) one who deliberately tries to impede progress

Well I know when I read the quoted exchange, obstructionist seems more than an apt description.

 

[Anti-K]

(bbm)So exactly when do you think he was queried?

I have no idea.
...

AK

 

[gramcracker]

(bbm)A pitbull. Right? Wasn't its name Sue Sanstine -- :waitasec: or something like that?

when I hear pit bull I'm reminded of he-who-must-not-be-named, and I've long wondered if he bills by the syllable rather than by the hour

 

[SapphireSteel]

Two hands not three.

Would this be

A. Burke and Patsy
B. Burke and John
C. John and Patsy.

I know what is most likely AND fits the evidence.

Burke is another victim.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Two hands not three.

Would this be

A. Burke and Patsy
B. Burke and John
C. John and Patsy.

I know what is most likely AND fits the evidence.

Burke is another victim.

My favorites are A, C or all three


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[DeDee]

Patsy Ramsey in 2000:

Thank you for providing the transcript regarding the security while Burke attended school following the murder of his sister.

<Respectfully snipped for space>

10 Q. Okay. When I asked you about
11 what it was that you had in mind in setting
12 up a security system, I take it that you
13 thought somebody could come into the school
14 and do harm to Burke inside the school; is
15 that correct?
16 A. Correct.
17 Q. Okay. The --
18 A. That's inconclusive of media as
19 well.
20 Q. Oh, okay. But was it more media
21 than the killer?
<snip>
10 Q. And who was it who gave you this
11 advice that the killer would probably not
12 want to come back?
13 A. John Douglas.
<snip>
24 Q. Did you have any kind of security
25 on Burke outside of school?
0275
1 A. Well, he was with us all the
2 time. You know, he was pretty much in a
3 protected environment other than the time he
4 was in school.
<snip>
7 Q. How about you, though? You were
8 involved in discussions with the school and
9 with the school district and with the
10 principal, I believe, is that correct, about
11 security arrangements while Burke was in
12 school?
13 A. I think so, yes. I mean, part
14 of the concern was I wanted him protected,
15 but at the same time I didn't want him made
16 paranoid, you know. And he didn't want -- I
17 didn't want him -- he didn't like Tracy
18 Temple being there. He said, mom, why is
19 this woman watching me all the time, and he
20 knew the kids knew that she was watching.
21 And so I am trying to walk a
22 fine line to keep me happy and peace of mind
23 about the security of my child, at the same
24 time not making him overly paranoid. So
25 the, you know, the best situation that we
0279
1 could come up with that was satisfactory to
2 both John and me was that he would be, you
3 know, picked up by Susan Stein. She began
4 taking him to school when we were at the
5 Olowski's. She would take him, and I
6 believe at that time nobody really knew where
7 we were. And he would duck down, you know,
8 and she would get him to the school and that
9 kind of thing.



Patsy was attempting to keep the paparazzi away from Burke, as I previously stated.
John Douglas told the Ramsey's that the killer of their child would not want to come back.
Patsy felt her son was in a protected environment when with his parents.
Burke would duck down while riding to and from school with Susan Stine.
I believe Burke ducking down during the car ride was to keep the media from being allowed an opportunity to photograph him and not because there was a real feeling that the killer or a copycat killer or a vigilante killer was out there watching.

 

[DeDee]

AFFIDAVIT of ALEXANDER HUNTER - October 12th, 2000

State of Colorado
County of Colorado

Personally appeared before the undersigned officer duly authorized by law to administer oaths, ALEXANDER M. HUNTER, who being first duly sworn, deposes and says as follows:

1. My name is Alexander M. Hunter. I am over 21 years of age and I am cmpetant to make and give this Affidavit, and do so from personal knowledge.

2. I am an attorney duly licensed in the State of Colorado. Since January 9th, 1973, I have been the elected District Attorney for the 20th Judicial District, County of Boulder, State of Colorado.

3. On or about December 26th, 1996, JonBenét Ramsey, a six year old minor child, was murdered in her home in Boulder, Colorado.

4. Since the date of her death, I have been continuously involved in the investigation of JonBenét's homicide.

5. As part of the investigation into the murder of JonBenét Ramsey, questions about any possible involvement by her brother, Burke Ramsey, who was 9 years of age at the time of his sister's murder and who was one of the individuals present in the house at the time of her murder, were raised and investigated as part of standard investigative practices and procedures.

6. From December 26th, 1996, to the date of this affidavit, no evidence has ever been developed in the investigation to justify elevating Burke Ramsey's status from that of witness to suspect.

7. In May of 1999, I was made aware that tabloid newspapers had indicated that Burke Ramsey was a suspect in the murder of JonBenét Ramsey or was believed to be her killer. As a result of these articles, I was contacted by media representatives and I instructed my office to release a press statement which publicly and officially stated that Burke Ramsey was not a suspect in connection with the murder of his sister and that stated in part, "...almost a year ago (Boulder) Police Chief Mark Beckner stated during a news conference that Burke (Ramsey) was not a suspect and that we are not looking at him as a possible suspect." The information in the May 1999 press release was true and correct.

8. From December 26th, 1996, to the present date, I have never engaged in plea bargain negotiations, talks or discussions with anyone in connection with the investigation into the murder of JonBenét Ramsey based in whole or in part on the premise that Burke Ramsey killed his sister. From December 26th, 1996, to the present date, no member of my office has ever engaged in plea bargain negotiations, talks or discussions with anyone in connection with the investigation into the murder of JonBenét Ramsey based in whole or in part on the premise that Burke Ramsey killed his sister.

9. I am aware that this Affidavit may be used by counsel for Burke Ramsey in connection with libel litigation brought on his behalf in various jurisdictions.

FURTHER AFFIANT SAYETH NOT
This 12th day of October, 2000

signed by Alexander M. Hunter
notarized by Susan Ingraham


* * * * * *

BR was 9yo when his sister was murdered. BR was a stone's throw away from becoming 10yo which, theoretically, placed BR in the 8 - 10 age group.

Chief J. Kolar presented SBP information and statistics regarding SBP. The study he referenced, applied to the 10 - 12 age group.

 

[DeDee]

"... studies still show that anxiety disorders are among the most common childhood psychiatric conditions. In a high proportion of cases, it turns out that the symptoms of an adult anxiety disorder first appeared in childhood, so treatment of abnormal childhood anxiety is not only important for its own sake but may help prevent adult disorders."


Separation anxiety

"When threatened with separation, they develop physical symptoms. Often they fear that during a separation either they or their parents will come to harm; in older children, this fear may involve specific fantasies of accidents, illness, and crime."

Post-traumatic stress disorder

"There are three kinds of symptoms. One is re-experiencing — intrusive memories, nightmares, a tendency to reenact the traumatic event in compulsive play, and anxiety when exposed to anything that recalls some aspect of the experience."


"Children who are insecurely attached are more likely to develop anxiety disorders, and anxious or depressed parents may make their children feel insecure."


Treating children’s anxiety
"Diagnosing these disorders in children can be difficult because fear and anxiety are also symptoms of many other conditions, including depression, bipolar disorder, and attention deficit disorder. Parents are not always sensitive to children’s signs of anxiety, ..."


http://www.health.harvard.edu/newsweek/Childrens_fears_and_anxieties.htm

 

[bettybaby00]

OMG I keep loosing my comments :banghead::banghead:

I want to go black and review this in Kolar's book. I do recall however, a few things standing out for me.

1) this affidavit was written by LIN WOOD. Written and sent to Hunter by LW for hunter's signature.

2) there were several edits/revisions made by Hunter, and Kolar includes a copy of it in his book

3) when reading that version, I felt like I was reading "who's on first?"

4) the wording is eerily similar to his statement after the GJ finished its investigation...

6. From December 26th, 1996, to the date of this affidavit, no evidence has ever been developed in the investigation to justify elevating Burke Ramsey's status from that of witness to suspect.

"No evidence has ever been developed" is not the same as "there is no evidence to develop"

Just like his statement about the GJ

"no charges have been filed. "I and my prosecution task force believe we do not have sufficient evidence to warrant filing of charges against anyone who has been investigated at this time."

We all know how that turned out

I'll try and post the "edited" affidavit later today.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

OMG I keep loosing my comments :banghead::banghead:

I want to go black and review this in Kolar's book. I do recall however, a few things standing out for me.

1) this affidavit was written by LIN WOOD. Written and sent to Hunter by LW for hunter's signature.

2) there were several edits/revisions made by Hunter, and Kolar includes a copy of it in his book

3) when reading that version, I felt like I was reading "who's on first?"

4) the wording is eerily similar to his statement after the GJ finished its investigation...


"No evidence has ever been developed" is not the same as "there is no evidence to develop"

Just like his statement about the GJ


We all know how that turned out

I'll try and post the "edited" affidavit later today.

If it was signed and notarized it does not matter who prepared it. It is a legal properly executed document.

No evidence to develop and no evidence that has been developed do mean the same thing. There is no evidence that at all can show that Burke was involved. None. That is what it means. IMO

 

[DeDee]

Exerts from:

http://teacher.scholastic.com/professional/bruceperry/child_loss.htm

"With that said, in traumatic death, especially if the child was a witness to the traumatic event, until the child can cope somewhat with the traumatic event, their capacity to mourn the loved one can be impaired. That is why it is not only ok to talk about the traumatic event, it is critical for the child long-term recovery of the child. The central issue becomes how you talk about it."

Should you talk about the event?
"For most children, death is a new experience. And like all new experiences, the unknown can be confusing and frightening. Most children do not know what to expect following the loss of a family member or friend. Young children may not understand what death really means and may be confused or even frightened by the reactions of other family members. In the case of traumatic death, the confusion and fear is even greater."
"The child will very likely be very quiet."
"Immediately following the death, the child will not be very capable of processing complex or abstract information."
"In the immediate post-traumatic period, the child's thoughts will be dominated by the terrorizing event. The loss of the loved one looms as a shadow in these first weeks."

Grief
"Grief is the label for the set of emotional, cognitive, behavioral and physical reactions that are seen following the death of a loved one. Normal grief responses may include denial, emotional numbing, anger, rage, rushes of anxiety (pangs), sadness, fear, confusion, difficulty sleeping, regression in children, stomach upset, loss of appetite, "hysterical materializations" (transient visual or auditory misperceptions of the loved one's image or voice) and many other potential symptoms. These symptoms are similar to those often seen in the acute post-traumatic period."

Do children understand events accurately?
"Young children often make false assumptions about the causes of major events. Unfortunately these assumptions may include some sense that they were at fault for the event — including the death of a loved one."

"While some elements of death and tragedy will always remain beyond understanding, explain this to the child: "I don't know, some things we can never really understand." If the child feels that they share the unknown and unknowable with an adult, they feel safer."

More on childhood trauma:
Dr. Perry founded, in 1990, the Center for the Study of Childhood Trauma.
http://childtrauma.org/cta-library/trauma-ptsd/


Discounting the BR choking rumor:

RSBM

"I am a psychologist in the process of evaluating a 12 year old white male who has been choking his young sister into unconsciousness multiple times a day for TWO YEARS, and molesting her."

http://www.silentvictims.org/

"The U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention found 82 media reports of kids dying from playing the choking game from 1995 through 2007 -- but that the figure is likely an underestimate, Nystrom and his colleagues write in Pediatrics."

http://www.lifescript.com/health/ce..._in_16_youth_play_the_choking_game_study.aspx

 

[DeDee]

Published December 21, 2001 at midnight
http://m.rockymountainnews.com/news/2001/dec/21/alex-hunter-reflective-about-case-friend-says/

"Former District Attorney Alex Hunter has led a quieter life since leaving office about a year ago."

LOL Shylock!

The affidavit came in October, 2000. Hunter was out of office in January, 2001. At the end of January, 2001, The Globe settled it's Burke lawsuit, July, 2001, AOL Time Warner settled it's Burke lawsuit, October, 2002, Court TV settled it's Burke lawsuit, and January, 2003, The New York Post settled it's Burke lawsuit, all after Hunter left office.

Please know as well that all of these litigants had the biggest, deep pocket attorneys money could buy, Williams and Connelly, the Fifth Avenue firm that represented the Post.

 

[otg]

It's helpful to consider the reason Wood wanted the affidavit, and what Hunter was NOT willing to say. Copies of the document with Hunter's strikeouts are linked below, along with a link to the discussion here at WS.

[ame="http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=4496"]Lin Wood Affidavit for Alex Hunter. Unedited. - Forums For Justice[/ame]

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6565"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

It's helpful to consider the reason Wood wanted the affidavit, and what Hunter was NOT willing to say. Copies of the document with Hunter's strikeouts are linked below, along with a link to the discussion here at WS.

Lin Wood Affidavit for Alex Hunter. Unedited. - Forums For Justice

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

What matters to me is not what was removed but what he signed and agreed to. Defense Attys are always going to shoot for the moon. What he signed though makes it clear for me.

 

[bettybaby00]

It's helpful to consider the reason Wood wanted the affidavit, and what Hunter was NOT willing to say. Copies of the document with Hunter's strikeouts are linked below, along with a link to the discussion here at WS.

Lin Wood Affidavit for Alex Hunter. Unedited. - Forums For Justice

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

To think what was crossed out isn't significant is weird to me, especially given Hunter's carefully crafted comment about the GJ. He mislead the public by making a statement that people automatically took as "the GJ came to no conclusion, there was no true bill signed."

The affidavits strikeouts are very telling

All questions related to Burke Ramsey's possible involvement in the murder of JonBenet Ramsey were resolved to the satisfaction of the investigators and Burke Ramsey has never been viewed by investigators as a suspect in connection with the murder of his sister.

From December 26, 1996 to the date of this Affidavit, Burke Ramsey has not been and is not at present, a suspect in the investigation into the murder of his sister, JonBenet Ramsey.

Those strikeouts are clear, direct language. Something AH wasn't willing to do with regard to BR.

It's all in the language. Like the GJ statement, it's carefully constructed to lead people to believe one thing, when in fact, it really isn't saying it.

And the fact that LW wanted this for the purposes of a civil suite is again questionable with regard to conflict of interest. It would have been interesting to see LW in action in a criminal trial in this case, where he would have to rely on using evidence rather than statements released that "exonerate" his clients. Statements that proved to be misleading, and wrong.

 

[DeDee]

otg, thank you for providing a link to an edited version of the affidavit that Alex Hunter actually approved pertaining to BR. Thanks to bettybaby, too, for catching the omissions mentioned in the amended version that were included in my post above of the affidavit.
Although, I do not disagree there were strike outs made, I could not locate a more accurate final affidavit, prior to my post, in formal reports but may search more later.

 

[Venom]

1) this affidavit was written by LIN WOOD. Written and sent to Hunter by LW for hunter's signature.

BBM and snipped-

How does a defense lawyer write out an affadavit for a DA? Am I missing something here? Couldn't/shouldn't AH have wrote it out himself as it is his affadavit?

 

[bettybaby00]

BBM and snipped-

How does a defense lawyer write out an affadavit for a DA? Am I missing something here? Couldn't/shouldn't AH have wrote it out himself as it is his affadavit?

Clearly AH didn't have any overwhelming, philanthropic desire to pick up his pen and just write it out of nowhere. It's a tremendous conflict of interest IMO, and when I was reading the FFJ & WS links provided earlier by OTG it was interesting to learn how unusual such a move was. But that shouldn't really be that surprising

Guess we should be glad AH actually read it and realized it needed some changes. It's all in the wording IMO