Patsy Ramsey in 2000:
6 MR. WOOD: Everybody ready? I
7 don't know what you all decided, but I have
8 spoken with John and Patsy. It was your
9 condition, Chief and Mr. Kane, that Patsy
10 Ramsey be finished first before John Ramsey
11 was interviewed. It is my understanding that
12 you've got a number of areas to inquire of
13 Patsy Ramsey. She is here, and we are
14 prepared to go forward and complete her,
15 understanding that the fiber issue is one
16 that we would, although you say you have
17 made your decision, I would urge to you
18 reflect upon it, perhaps reconsider it.
19 But we are here for any and all
20 other areas, but in all fairness to my
21 clients, after you imposed this condition, I
22 think it is proper that you finish with
23 Patsy Ramsey before you do John Ramsey. And
24 if you are unwilling to do that, then
25 unfortunately your decision will end this
0263
1 day. So I will ask John to step out. I
2 will let Patsy finish. It's your call.
3 CHIEF BECKNER: If you have no
4 other questions, then you have no other
5 questions.
6 MR. WOOD: If you are willing to
7 stipulate that you had no further questions
8 beyond the security and the fibers that we've
9 already talked about ad nauseam, pardon my
10 language, I think that is probably accurate,
11 then John can go forward, but if you are
12 telling me you have other questions, but for
13 the reasons you've stated you are not going
14 to ask them today, then we are done because
15 I am going to insist that you live up to
16 your demand that Patsy go first and be
17 finished. I am not going to change my
18 position about my right to defend my clients
19 in what I think is a very clear
20 understanding of what we agreed to do at
21 your request.
22 MR. KANE: Given what I --
23 MR. WOOD: It is your call.
24 MR. KANE: -- said about the
25 parameters that you placed on it, I don't
0264
1 have any further questions.
2 MR. LEVIN: And I am in the same
3 position.
4 MR. WOOD: But you acknowledge,
5 absent my parameters, you have other areas
6 for Patsy.
7 MR. KANE: Yes.
8 MR. WOOD: Well, she's here.
9 We'll sit here for you to ask questions.
10 MR. KANE: Okay. Well, then let
11 me ask you this, are you going to raise
12 those objections?
13 MR. WOOD: I am going to continue
14 to make sure that we play by the rules you
15 all established, yes, sir.
16 MR. KANE: I mean, we are back
17 into the debate.
18 CHIEF BECKNER: Now that is not
19 fair if you say, based on those parameters
20 they don't have any further questions. I
21 don't know how it can be fair then to say,
22 well, go ahead and ask those questions
23 because you have parameters of what you are
24 going to let her answer.
25 MR. WOOD: I have not. That is
0265
1 not true. The only thing that I have told
2 you that we will not answer today are the
3 issues of the fiber based on what I think
4 are potentially mischaracterizations of
5 laboratory results that I would like to have
6 verified just by the result itself so that
7 we could then know exactly what facts we are
8 testifying to as opposed to speculation on
9 issues that may be hypothetical and not based
10 in fact. And that's it. You won't find
11 where I've instructed her not to answer
12 another question.
13 So she is here. We are prepared
14 to go forward. You all insisted that there
15 was some mystical, magical reason that she
16 had to be finished before John could done,
17 and if you didn't finish her you didn't want
18 John. You either are going to do what you
19 said you're going to do, gentlemen, or we
20 are done.
21 CHIEF BECKNER: I don't know
22 where we ever said that.
23 MR. WOOD: Let me just say
24 this --
25 MR. WOOD: You said it was a
0266
1 deal breaker, Patsy would go first or you
2 wouldn't take John --
3 MR. KANE: This is a just a
4 tennis game.
5 MR. WOOD: We assumed you
6 wanted --
7 CHIEF BECKNER: You assumed, but
8 you are stating as though there were some
9 statement somebody said that --
10 MR. WOOD: Were you telling me
11 you just wanted to start with her but not
12 finish before you started John?
13 CHIEF BECKNER: I didn't say
14 that.
15 MR. WOOD: Don't you think it is
16 a reasonable assumption, when you insist on
17 her going first, that I would have assumed
18 you were going to finish her before you did
19 John?
20 CHIEF BECKNER: Not necessarily.
21 MR. WOOD: Well, you changed --
22 CHIEF BECKNER: -- ask her some
23 additional questions.
24 MR. WOOD: You can have John and
25 Patsy back in an ongoing dialogue if we
0267
1 weren't involved in this kind of stuff. But
2 this stuff is not going to be productive.
3 It is unfortunate, but as they say, it --
4 look, I do not believe that I ever agreed or
5 you requested that Patsy start, not finish,
6 John come back, Patsy come back. I don't
7 think it ever was going to be a ping pong
8 match with these people coming back and
9 forth.
10 I thought it was clear you wanted
11 her first or you wouldn't talk to either
12 one. I think it was a reasonable assumption
13 on my part that meant you would finish her
14 back to back as you called it, and then we
15 would move on with John.
16 Now you're telling me that's not
17 necessarily the case, then I really am
18 concerned about whether we can agree on
19 anything in terms of what you mean when you
20 talk plain and simple English. That is not
21 meant to be defensive.
22 CHIEF BECKNER: You said it was a
23 condition. That was never a condition.
24 MR. WOOD: It wasn't. It was an
25 assumption on my part, when you said you
0268
1 wanted Patsy first, that we would finish her
2 and go back to back with John. I don't
3 think it was an unreasonable assumption on my
4 part.
5 But the point is, she is here,
6 you have got, as you say, Mr. Kane, a murder
7 you want to try to solve. You've all
8 represented that you need to ask her
9 questions. She may not be able to answer
10 all of them because I may feel like that
11 there are areas where I am not comfortable,
12 for legitimate reasons in my mind, we may
13 not reach agreement on the legitimacy of
14 those. I am comfortable with what I have
15 done so far. If you don't want the other
16 part, then just say so.
17 MR. KANE: I am not going to say
18 a word, Mr. Wood, because every time I say a
19 word, I hear a ten-minute speech.
20 MR. WOOD: Well, then I think
21 your characterization shows your lack of
22 objectivity. Do you want to ask questions
23 or not? Let's go. If you want to ask
24 them, ask the next question.
25 MR. KANE: Is Mr. Ramsey going to
0269
1 step out?
2 MR. WOOD: All right.
3 (Mr. Ramsey leaves the room. )
4 MR. WOOD: Ready to go?
5 MR. KANE: I am ready.
6 Q. (By Mr. Kane) Mrs. Ramsey, the
7 last question I asked you was, you had this
8 concern about Burke and this killer and the
9 potential that he could be harmed, and in
10 spite of concerns by your security people,
11 you had him transported to and from the
12 school by Susan Stein. Did Ms. Stein have
13 any kind of training in self-defense, to your
14 knowledge?
15 A. I don't know.
16 Q. Does she have any kind of
17 training in taking evasive maneuvers if
18 someone were to try to get into her car at
19 a stop sign or anything like that?
20 A. I don't know if she had any
21 formal training in that.
22 Q. Was there a discussion, when you
23 talked about security issues with either
24 Tracy Temple or with Ellis Armistead, were
25 you privy to discussions about the potential
0270
1 for harm to come to Burke while being
2 transported to or from school?
3 A. No.
4 Q. And in your recollection, that
5 never came up as an issue? Is that what
6 you are saying?
7 A. No.
8 Q. No, it didn't come up or --
9 A. I was unaware if it ever came up.
10 Q. Okay. When I asked you about
11 what it was that you had in mind in setting
12 up a security system, I take it that you
13 thought somebody could come into the school
14 and do harm to Burke inside the school; is
15 that correct?
16 A. Correct.
17 Q. Okay. The --
18 A. That's inconclusive of media as
19 well.
20 Q. Oh, okay. But was it more media
21 than the killer?
22 A. Well, it was all of those. You
23 know, the media would alert -- their presence
24 there would alert everyone that Burke was at
25 the school, so I wasn't crazy about them
0271
1 hanging around the school. Of course, the
2 killer was still out there; although, we had
3 been advised that he probably would not, you
4 know, come out because now everybody is
5 alerted and looking for him.
6 You know, and then there is what
7 they call copy cat people, you know, who
8 want to get a piece of the publicity, and
9 they would be lurking around.
10 Q. And who was it who gave you this
11 advice that the killer would probably not
12 want to come back?
13 A. John Douglas.
14 Q. Okay. And did Mr. Douglas tell
15 you that -- or what did he tell you?
16 A. Well, he said we had to be aware
17 of three situations. One, obviously the
18 killer was at large; two, what you call a
19 copy cat killer, somebody that says, oh, that
20 looks like an interesting idea, I think I
21 will try to do the same thing; and, three,
22 what he termed vigilante perpetrators or
23 whatever term you want to use for them. You
24 know, somebody that says, oh, you know, the
25 police aren't taking care of this, I will
0272
1 take care of it.
2 In other words, just alerting us
3 that there are a lot of crazy people out
4 there.
5 Q. And the first, so the first
6 concern he said was that it was probably
7 unlikely that the killer would come back, the
8 person that perpetrated the crime; is that
9 what he said?
10 A. He said it was very unlikely.
11 Q. Okay. But how about the copy cat
12 killer, what kind of opinion did he offer
13 about the potential for that?
14 A. He said it was very great.
15 Q. And this would be somebody who
16 would try to pattern what had already
17 happened to JonBenet, to do the same thing
18 to Burke?
19 A. Uh-huh (affirmative). Right.
20 MR. LEVIN: Can I interrupt you
21 just a second, Mike? I am sorry.
22 MR. KANE: Yes.
23 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Mrs. Ramsey, as I
24 understand it, at this point in time, which
25 would be early 1997, your belief was that
0273
1 the murder of your daughter was an act of
2 retaliation for some unknown reason towards
3 either you or your husband?
4 A. Right.
5 Q. You no longer hold that belief;
6 correct?
7 A. Not necessarily.
8 Q. I was under the impression that,
9 in your book, you stated you thought it was
10 a pedophile.
11 A. Well, it could be one in the
12 same.
13 Q. I see.
14 MR. LEVIN: Thank you, ma'am.
15 Q. (By Mr. Kane) In the third, the
16 vigilante, what was Mr. Douglas' opinion
17 about the probability or possibility about
18 somebody feeling that the authorities weren't
19 getting to the bottom of this so that they
20 would do harm?
21 A. Uh-huh (indicating affirmatively).
22 Q. What was his opinion about how
23 strong of a threat that was?
24 A. He just thought it was very
25 strong because, in his years of experience,
0274
1 there are lots of those kinds of strange
2 people out there.
3 Q. Did he talk to you about where
4 your copy cat killer or vigilante might
5 strike and where you should be careful?
6 A. No.
7 Q. But you thought that school was
8 certainly one of the places that a person
9 could come in?
10 A. Well, since that's where Burke
11 spent the greatest part of his day.
12 Q. Okay.
13 A. You know, I'm the mother of a
14 murdered child. I was fearful, just fearful
15 of everything. Most particularly about my
16 child, my husband, and myself.
17 Q. Okay. And, I mean, did you have
18 discussions either with Mr. Douglas or with
19 Ellis Armistead or any of the other security
20 people that you had, had you had discussions
21 with them about how somebody might pose a
22 threat to Burke while he was in school?
23 A. Not specifically.
24 Q. Did you have any kind of security
25 on Burke outside of school?
0275
1 A. Well, he was with us all the
2 time. You know, he was pretty much in a
3 protected environment other than the time he
4 was in school.
5 Q. When you say a protected
6 environment, other than the fact that his
7 parents were there, was there any protection
8 afforded to him outside of school? You
9 hired Tracy Temple, obviously, who was a
10 trained martial arts person, I believe.
11 A. Yeah. Well, we had, you know,
12 for many days, we had security people, you
13 know, with us at the homes where we were
14 staying for quite some time.
15 Q. Where, which homes?
16 A. Jay Olowski's. I know we had
17 somebody there then. And I believe there
18 might have been someone when we were at Mike
19 Bienam's house.
20 Q. Who were these people? Who were
21 the security people?
22 A. Somebody Ellis's group sent.
23 Q. So Ellis Armistead hired somebody
24 to be at Jay Olowski's house?
25 A. Yes.
0276
1 Q. Did they stay in the house or
2 outside the house?
3 A. Inside.
4 Q. Inside the house?
5 A. Mostly at night.
6 Q. And you moved into Mike Bienam's
7 house at some point?
8 A. Uh-huh (affirmative).
9 Q. Was that after Jay Olowski?
10 A. No. That was before.
11 Q. Okay. And then how about the
12 Stein's, did you have anybody there?
13 A. I can't remember. I don't think
14 we did as much. We may have for a few
15 days when we first got there.
16 Q. The people, the security people
17 that were hired while you were at Mike
18 Bienam's, let me -- how long did you stay at
19 Bienam's after?
20 A. My memory is real fuzzy with
21 those days, but -- I can't remember that. A
22 few days. Maybe a week or something.
23 Q. And then you went to Jay
24 Olowski's?
25 A. Right.
0277
1 Q. And you were there for a month or
2 so?
3 A. A couple of months, right.
4 Q. And then you went to the Stein's?
5 A. Right.
6 Q. And this person or these people,
7 how many -- was it one person that you had
8 as security at Jay Olowski's or was it a
9 series of people?
10 A. It might be different people.
11 Q. Was this 24 hour a day coverage?
12 A. No. It was mostly at night.
13 Q. And you say they were inside?
14 They were hired to be inside the house?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. For the whole time that you
17 stayed at Jay Olowski's house?
18 A. I don't remember. I don't know
19 if it was the whole time.
20 Q. Did these people -- this security,
21 you don't remember who it was?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Did they have any -- did you
24 discuss with them transporting Burke to
25 school?
0278
1 A. No.
2 Q. Did you discuss with anybody
3 having a professional security person
4 transport Burke to school?
5 A. I don't know. John may have. I
6 don't know.
7 Q. How about you, though? You were
8 involved in discussions with the school and
9 with the school district and with the
10 principal, I believe, is that correct, about
11 security arrangements while Burke was in
12 school?
13 A. I think so, yes. I mean, part
14 of the concern was I wanted him protected,
15 but at the same time I didn't want him made
16 paranoid, you know. And he didn't want -- I
17 didn't want him -- he didn't like Tracy
18 Temple being there. He said, mom, why is
19 this woman watching me all the time, and he
20 knew the kids knew that she was watching.
21 And so I am trying to walk a
22 fine line to keep me happy and peace of mind
23 about the security of my child, at the same
24 time not making him overly paranoid. So
25 the, you know, the best situation that we
0279
1 could come up with that was satisfactory to
2 both John and me was that he would be, you
3 know, picked up by Susan Stein. She began
4 taking him to school when we were at the
5 Olowski's. She would take him, and I
6 believe at that time nobody really knew where
7 we were. And he would duck down, you know,
8 and she would get him to the school and that
9 kind of thing.
10 Q. So you made a conscious decision
11 then not to have security --
12 A. In the transport.
13 Q. -- because Burke didn't feel
14 comfortable having security; is that what you
15 --
16 A. Right. He was, you know, he
17 was --
18 MR. WOOD: You are talking about
19 the lady Temple?
20 Q. (By Mr. Kane) No. You said
21 that --
22 A. Well, Susan, you know -- see, we
23 were -- the objective was to try to give him
24 as much normalcy as possible, but at the
25 same time putting, you know, security,
0280
1 security measures in place that would, you
2 know, ensure his security.
3 Q. Why was the decision made to have
4 the security inside the classroom versus to
5 and from school?
6 A. Well, because -- and she -- I
7 don't believe Tracy was inside the classroom.
8 I think she was standing in the hall like
9 near close to the front doors so she could
10 kind of be watching doors.
11 Q. Well, inside the school proper.
12 A. Yeah.
13 Q. Why was the decision made, as you
14 said --
15 A. Well, it was much more of an
16 uncontrolled environment. I mean, when you
17 go from a locked garage to locked car to,
18 you know, adult escort into the classroom,
19 you know, that's pretty safe.
20 Q. Is that what was represented to
21 you, was that it was more secure -- it was
22 more unsecure inside the school than it was
23 going to and from school?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And who represented that to you?
0281
1 Who told you that? I mean, when you say
2 that, let me ask it this way.
3 When you say that was represented
4 to you, was this represented to you by a
5 security consultant or Tracy Temple or Ellis
6 Armistead?
7 A. I don't remember. You know, I
8 just remember saying that I wanted somebody
9 at the school watching, you know. And at
10 first, you know, we put Tracy Temple there,
11 and then, you know, Burke was bothered by
12 her being there, the children didn't know who
13 she was, and the school said, you know, this
14 is kind of becoming disruptive.
15 And I said, well, you know, if
16 there is nobody there, he's coming out. And
17 then is when Susan and Roxy Walker got
18 together with the principal, I believe, and
19 said, you know, could we set up what they
20 call a Burke watch.
21 And they had a team of volunteer
22 parents, all of whom I knew, who volunteered
23 around the clock to be right at the door,
24 right outside the door of his fourth grade
25 classroom.
0282
1 And if he went to the bathroom or
2 somewhere, somebody would (indicating), you
3 know, without being right on his back, but
4 they were watching.
5 Q. And what were they expected to do
6 if somebody came into the school and tried
7 to harm Burke?
8 A. The first thing was to punch that
9 Lavalier, and call 911 and start screaming.
10 Q. And then what were they expected
11 to do after doing this, while the 911
12 response came in?
13 A. I don't know --
14 MR. WOOD: I don't want to stir
15 this up, but, you know, you guys got all the
16 meat off this chicken you are going to get.
17 Come on, move on to something else. I am
18 sitting here listening. You know, this is
19 just absurd. This doesn't have anything to
20 do with JonBenet's murder.
21 MR. KANE: Are you asking her not
22 to answer the question?
23 MR. WOOD: I am asking you to
24 move on to something productive. You just
25 beat this one to death, man. Let's go.
0283
1 THE WITNESS: I don't know what
2 they were supposed to do. They were
3 supposed to be there as a pair of eyes on
4 him and at a, you know, at an arm's length
5 without disrupting him, necessarily, but
6 keeping him as safe as possible.
