Was Burke involved?

Was Burke involved in JB's death?

  • Burke was involved in the death of JBR

    Votes: 377 59.6%
  • Burke was totally uninvolved in her death

    Votes: 256 40.4%

  • Total voters
    633
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Not open for further replies.
  • #581
This is certainly possible, but lets dig a bit deeper into this theory.

First, Burke has still had to live under a cloud of suspicion from age 9, and unless the case is officially solved and someone else is named as the killer, he will live out his days being suspected.

This is true, but it's much better than the alternative of it being known for a fact and all the difficulties that would come with it. Period.

Second, family honor has not been salvaged. The Rs are certainly suspected, so even if they save their son from suspicion (which they have not) there is still a cloud of suspicion over the whole family.

Family HAS been salvaged to the extent that they were supposedly 'exonerated' to the best they could have been. And it's much better than the alternative of having the whole truth come out. For sure. They would rather have no intruder found, than the truth being one of them known guilty, especially their other child.

Third, The way they staged the crime scene, they implicated themselves and ran a great risk of being convicted. Is this worth it? Is saving BR from being named the killer worth life in prison? Is it good for BR to loose his parents this way - to prison?

There are only so many options in the scenario, are there not? It's unexpected, unplanned, Christmas night, a few hours before you are going on a trip. There's not many other people they can implicate at the time of the crime, when they are in this limited scenario, with not a lot at hand. They are already home late at night on Xmas night. Who else can they implicate but an unknown intruder who may know about John's business and be angry about that. If they outright name names and try to set those people up, how are they going to have those people's belongings? Who else's belongings and evidence and dna can they get a hold of at that time? The best they can do is say things look out of place, point fingers at everyone else, be vague about crap, find possible entrance/exits for an intruder, and use the materials they have in their own house. Where else are they going to get any other materials from anywhere else in the middle of the night on Xmas? And even if there were a store open, the store can say they were there that night to purchase that crap. Of course they are going to implicate themselves by being in their own house and using their own stuff. But what other choice is there? Honestly?

IMO it doesn't add up. The best thing if BDI would be to deal with it head on, pass it off as childish anger that went just a bit too far, and live with it that way.

Maybe in your living situation with not as much to lose it would be the best thing. They did have a lot to lose. Everybody does not think the same thing would be the best for each situation, or people wouldn't commit crimes, do drugs, etc. People make bad choices based on what they think is the most important to them at the time. Just because you think it's the best thing, doesn't mean they thought it was. Passing it off as 'childish anger that just went a bit too far' sounds like a little downplayed when the child is dead, though.

Of course there is nothing to say that they were being rational and choosing best alternatives from among bad choices. It may have happened as you suggest, but it seems unlikely, to me.

The Ramseys lives are unlikely as compared to the average American. That should be taken into consideration when looking at why things happened as they did.
 
  • #582
Chrishope,

And therein lies the focus on the fallacy.

I take it then that you think considerable time passed between the time JBR was injured and when this was discovered by the Rs? What would you estimate the time to be?

How much time do you think elapsed between the strangulation, and the bash ? (or vice versa?)

How do you imagine the Rs became aware of the situation? I mean, if BDI, did he then run to their room and admit it? Or did he go back to bed and the R's discovered it hours later? What made them get up at say 2am, and discover JBR had been killed?

What do you believe to be the TOD for JBR?

I would place TOD at approx. midnight - though I'll be happy to give a couple hours leeway. If I'm not mistaken she was in full rigor at 1pm when she was "found". Most sources I've seen say full rigor occurs about 12 hours after death - though several variables are involved. That would mean she died around midnight to 1am.

Sure but the object of the exercise is not to identify loose ends, we all expect those, but to find contradictions in the staging logic, e.g. size-12's. A fictional example of this can be found in Columbo's Murder With Too Many Notes which is a staged homicide, where the prime suspect is played by Billy Connolly so appeared a little surreal to me.

If the R's are unaware of some fact and due to ignorance cannot include it in their version of events, this is not a loose end, some oversight. This is information we have regarding facts available to the R's, which goes beyond a mistake or lack of attention to detail.
I'm not making any distinction between loose ends and contradictions. I'm saying they will exist (whatever you want to call them) in any case - murder/ coverup, or actual kidnapping. Every contradiction does not implicate the suspect. It does on TV because there is only an hour to find the killer, but in real life there is just unexplainable "stuff". It seems illogical, but it's there.



Here is another way to consider it: To effect the staging someone decided to redress JonBenet in the size-12's, now whatever the merits of this is, it was hidden, buried beneath the longjohns. Now contrast that detail with her hair-ties, left in full view. Although you can suggest oh they just missed them, its a loose end, is it not a curious one, given JonBenet also has a head injury? Also you would think if the R's knew what occurred when they arrived back from the White's, e.g. if JonBenet had a pineapple snack, then direct evidence of this could be removed.

The R's are going to blame JonBenet's death on the intruder, so why not the sexual assault? Why bother hiding it, then fabricating a version of events that can be contradicted by holes in your own staging?

The loose ends thesis becomes more tenable the later the parents arrive on the crime-scene, otherwise they have approximately 4-hours to setup the staging, then check it over.
In my estimation, they had about 6 hours to stage and re-stage. I don't think the contradictions were due to lack of time, but rather to lack of experience. They had not staged the kidnapping/murder of their own daughter before. They could not think of every detail, nor think calmly and rationally.

As to some of the specifics you mention -

I don't know that the hair ties were a loose end. The overall story they are telling is that the intruder redressed JBR. That, in and of itself, is a contradiction from what I'd expect an intruder to do. (I'd think the intruder would molest her then make a hasty exit from the house) But, if an intruder did redress her (and we know that's not the case) who's to say what he'd put on her? Why not hair ties? It's no more/less senseless than redressing her at all or putting size 12 panties on her.

If they knew of the pineapple snack I'd expect the story to be we came home, JBR had some pineapple, then went to bed. This suggests to me they didn't know. If I recall correctly from the autopsy report, she had eaten about 10 CCs of pineapple. That's what - maybe 2 small cubes of pineapple? She could easily have eaten that amount while her parents were in another room, just for a minute or less.

The size 12s are puzzling on many levels. The size is a contradiction no matter what. Possibly the size was meant to infer that the intruder didn't know the correct size, whereas the parents certainly would? Perhaps they thought the Wednesday feature was of overriding importance?

In all these cases, time, or lack thereof, would not have been the reason for doing/not doing something. IOWs they didn't put hair ties on her because they lacked time. They didn't put 12s on her because they lacked the time to get the correct size out of her dresser drawer. They didn't write a 2 and a half page RN because they'd arrived late on the scene and had to work fast.

If anything I'd lean more to the idea that they had too much time and over-thought things and had time to re-do things, rather than arriving late on the scene and not having time to deal with contradictions.

It's clear that they had to take time to wipe her down, to remove forensic evidence. An intruder might have done the same. Everything else that was done, after wiping her down, was time consuming, not time saving.

Basically nothing they did after wiping her down made any real sense. An intruder would not have redressed her, would not have written a RN post murder (though some people seem to want to believe it was a kidnapping gone bad, thus explaining the note and the body together) would not have placed the body in the WC, would not have wrapped her in a blanket....and so on.

The mistakes were fundamental errors in thinking. Errors in story telling, if you like. They didn't know how to stage it. They didn't know how to tell the story of an intruder/killer. Having no experience in these matters, it wouldn't matter how much time they had. Contradictions emerge from their wrong decisions, not from lack of time. The wrong decisions aren't from time pressure, but rather from not knowing what they were doing.
 
  • #583
This is true, but it's much better than the alternative of it being known for a fact and all the difficulties that would come with it. Period.



Family HAS been salvaged to the extent that they were supposedly 'exonerated' to the best they could have been. And it's much better than the alternative of having the whole truth come out. For sure. They would rather have no intruder found, than the truth being one of them known guilty, especially their other child.



There are only so many options in the scenario, are there not? It's unexpected, unplanned, Christmas night, a few hours before you are going on a trip. There's not many other people they can implicate at the time of the crime, when they are in this limited scenario, with not a lot at hand. They are already home late at night on Xmas night. Who else can they implicate but an unknown intruder who may know about John's business and be angry about that. If they outright name names and try to set those people up, how are they going to have those people's belongings? Who else's belongings and evidence and dna can they get a hold of at that time? The best they can do is say things look out of place, point fingers at everyone else, be vague about crap, find possible entrance/exits for an intruder, and use the materials they have in their own house. Where else are they going to get any other materials from anywhere else in the middle of the night on Xmas? And even if there were a store open, the store can say they were there that night to purchase that crap. Of course they are going to implicate themselves by being in their own house and using their own stuff. But what other choice is there? Honestly?



Maybe in your living situation with not as much to lose it would be the best thing. They did have a lot to lose. Everybody does not think the same thing would be the best for each situation, or people wouldn't commit crimes, do drugs, etc. People make bad choices based on what they think is the most important to them at the time. Just because you think it's the best thing, doesn't mean they thought it was. Passing it off as 'childish anger that just went a bit too far' sounds like a little downplayed when the child is dead, though.



The Ramseys lives are unlikely as compared to the average American. That should be taken into consideration when looking at why things happened as they did.

I'm not saying it's impossible, just improbable. Just consider the very real possibility that one or both Rs would go to prison for life. Now I'll ask you, would you risk life in prison to save your 9 year old the trauma of being named as the killer of his sister? - when he really is the killer, and has to live with that privately anyway? Are they going to give up the career with Access Graphics, the money, the house, the vacation home, the whole lifestyle and spend the rest of their life making license plates? All to save BR the public embarrassment of being named the killer, when he was in fact the killer? I'm sorry, this is just not believable, at least not to me.
 
  • #584
If I were Burke, I would rather live my life with some people thinking I killed my sister than actually admitting what I did and having it be known for sure. Burke is already employed after graduating and I have never heard about him having any issues in high school or at Purdue as I'm sure John would make it known if he did, as another example of what media's "persecution" did to the family. I could maybe understand admitting what happened if it was December 1996 and even the local media wasn't interested so they could just file it away.

Also, back in 2010 when the news came out about Boulder LE wanting to re-interview Burke, his facebook disappeared from the search engine, and if you did find it, you couldn't friend request, message him, or see any of his friends. I'm guessing he was getting a lot of messages and friend requests from strangers...and I don't blame him at all for putting in measures to stop people from contacting him...but it doesn't sound like the behavior of someone who would ever admit that he killed his sister, which would definitely make national news. He's been too much of a private person over the past 15 years to ever put himself out there as the murderer in one of the biggest unsolved murders.
 
  • #585
If I were Burke, I would rather live my life with some people thinking I killed my sister than actually admitting what I did and having it be known for sure. Burke is already employed after graduating and I have never heard about him having any issues in high school or at Purdue as I'm sure John would make it known if he did, as another example of what media's "persecution" did to the family. I could maybe understand admitting what happened if it was December 1996 and even the local media wasn't interested so they could just file it away.

Also, back in 2010 when the news came out about Boulder LE wanting to re-interview Burke, his facebook disappeared from the search engine, and if you did find it, you couldn't friend request, message him, or see any of his friends. I'm guessing he was getting a lot of messages and friend requests from strangers...and I don't blame him at all for putting in measures to stop people from contacting him...but it doesn't sound like the behavior of someone who would ever admit that he killed his sister, which would definitely make national news.

The real question isn't what Burke would prefer, but what JR and PR would prefer. BDI only holds up if JR/PR are willing to risk their entire life -not to mention custody of BR- to prevent him from having to be publicly named as the killer.

My guess is that if BR did it (and I think it's extremely unlikely) and he'd been named early on, then this case would quietly have disappeared long ago. I'm sure siblings kill siblings at least a handful of times a year in the US. How many cases do we ever hear of. Who would be reading about a 15 year old case, solved 15 years ago? Except for close family and friends, BR could live in anonymity today.
 
  • #586
The real question isn't what Burke would prefer, but what JR and PR would prefer. BDI only holds up if JR/PR are willing to risk their entire life -not to mention custody of BR- to prevent him from having to be publicly named as the killer.

I think most parents would do a lot, perhaps anything, to save their child - especially if they already lost one...or two.

Look at Cindy and George Anthony. They lied to keep their daughter out of jail, who was involved in her own daughter's murder. And a lot of parents on the Caylee Anthony thread said they would lie and sacrifice themselves so that their child could live, or not have to go to jail, even if their own child was a murderer, even if it was of their grandchild. If you don't believe me, you can find it in this forum on the Caylee Anthony thread.

I think that in fact the Ramseys were prepared to go to jail so that Burke could live.
 
  • #587
I think most parents would do a lot, perhaps anything, to save their child - especially if they already lost one...or two.

Look at Cindy and George Anthony. They lied to keep their daughter out of jail, who was involved in her own daughter's murder. And a lot of parents on the Caylee Anthony thread said they would lie and sacrifice themselves so that their child could live, or not have to go to jail, even if their own child was a murderer, even if it was of their grandchild. If you don't believe me, you can find it in this forum on the Caylee Anthony thread.

I think that in fact the Ramseys were prepared to go to jail so that Burke could live.

Burke could not have been charged. He was 9.
 
  • #588
Burke could not have been charged. He was 9.

Yes, I know that. I should have said in response to Chrishope that yes, I do believe they were "willing to risk their entire life -not to mention custody of BR- to prevent him from having to be publicly named as the killer".
 
  • #589
I think most parents would do a lot, perhaps anything, to save their child - especially if they already lost one...or two.

Look at Cindy and George Anthony. They lied to keep their daughter out of jail, who was involved in her own daughter's murder. And a lot of parents on the Caylee Anthony thread said they would lie and sacrifice themselves so that their child could live, or not have to go to jail, even if their own child was a murderer, even if it was of their grandchild. If you don't believe me, you can find it in this forum on the Caylee Anthony thread.

I think that in fact the Ramseys were prepared to go to jail so that Burke could live.


I know I'm going to sound argumentative, and I don't mean to, but I just can't buy this.

Burke was not going to jail, and he wasn't going to die. I agree that parents would lay down their life for their kids, but only when the kids are facing death or maybe life in prison. Burke could not be charged with any level of crime - not murder, not manslaughter, not failure to pick up his toys.

If your theory is correct, the Rs were willing to go to prison for life (potentially be executed, as CO has the DP, though I doubt it would have been used in this case) to spare him some public embarrassment. The sacrifice is so out of proportion to the harm they are saving him from that it is ridiculous on the face of it.

A second problem is that if the Rs love Burke enough to go to prison for life, to spare him some embarrassment, why are they willing to loose BR? Loosing Burke is what would happen to the Rs if they went to prison. Not only would they loose custody (obviously) but their contact with him would be the occasional and brief prison visit. How would that be a better life for Burke than being exposed as the killer of JBR? Sorry, this just does not add up.

Still another problem is that BR does not seem to have acted out, or displayed any sign of mental problems as one might expect of a child who killed a sibling. It seems unlikely to me that a child would not have admitted his part in the killing to someone -police, a teacher, an aunt, etc.
 
  • #590
Chrishope's posts have got me thinking. If Burke killed JBR, what was the point in going on CNN?
 
  • #591
I know I'm going to sound argumentative, and I don't mean to, but I just can't buy this.

Burke was not going to jail, and he wasn't going to die. I agree that parents would lay down their life for their kids, but only when the kids are facing death or maybe life in prison. Burke could not be charged with any level of crime - not murder, not manslaughter, not failure to pick up his toys.

If your theory is correct, the Rs were willing to go to prison for life (potentially be executed, as CO has the DP, though I doubt it would have been used in this case) to spare him some public embarrassment. The sacrifice is so out of proportion to the harm they are saving him from that it is ridiculous on the face of it.

A second problem is that if the Rs love Burke enough to go to prison for life, to spare him some embarrassment, why are they willing to loose BR? Loosing Burke is what would happen to the Rs if they went to prison. Not only would they loose custody (obviously) but their contact with him would be the occasional and brief prison visit. How would that be a better life for Burke than being exposed as the killer of JBR? Sorry, this just does not add up.

Still another problem is that BR does not seem to have acted out, or displayed any sign of mental problems as one might expect of a child who killed a sibling. It seems unlikely to me that a child would not have admitted his part in the killing to someone -police, a teacher, an aunt, etc.

The Ramseys were never looking at prison time. I'm almost postitive phone calls were made long before the 911 call on the 26th to very important people on how to proceed. Hence no phone records ever produced.

BR was smiling wide during the funeral of his sister. Do you recall that? Now he was the center of attention; not JB. Ever think maybe he thought along those lines. A little case of sibling rivalry? Besides BR was 9 he probably didn't realize the implications of hitting his sister on the head with the mag lite/golf club/ baseball bat/ or the heaven forbide (vaginal penetration) of a broken paintbrush. :sick:

And yes he was not going to go to jail because of his age, but ..... I truly believe that the Ramsey's would have done anything to keep their family together. Living with this embarrassment of the "not so" Perfect family well that was just to much for PR.
 
  • #592
It seems neither Pasty or John were willing to fall on a sword for Burke if had hit her. One of them put their knee on their daughters back and pulled a cord tight around her neck. I wonder how would they of known for sure that she was dead.

If one of them did and was wiling to go to prison to save Burke which one do you think it would of been?

I think back to the enhanced 911 call and Burke asking what did you see.

I think back to John mentioning people and 3:AM.

I think back to Fleet White and his anger at John and Pasty.

I won't read DOI for the same reasons. I think they were protesting to much and doing little to find an supposed intruder that killed JRB.

How would an intruder know where to find JRB?

If an intruder came upon Burke first would he of been the one "kidnapped"?

It's late and I'm thinking I'm not making much sense.
 
  • #593
Let's say the R's confessed that Burke had killed JonBenet immediately after it happened. We wouldn't be talking about the case today, but the murder of a child in a very safe small city would probably get some local coverage. Surely, people who knew the R's, and families whose kids attended High Peaks, and neighbors would know that JonBenet was killed by Burke. We can think of it like: No one would know about it except for people who knew the family...but for everyone you know to find out you murdered your sister is a huge deal.
 
  • #594
The Ramseys were never looking at prison time. I'm almost postitive phone calls were made long before the 911 call on the 26th to very important people on how to proceed. Hence no phone records ever produced.

BR was smiling wide during the funeral of his sister. Do you recall that? Now he was the center of attention; not JB. Ever think maybe he thought along those lines. A little case of sibling rivalry? Besides BR was 9 he probably didn't realize the implications of hitting his sister on the head with the mag lite/golf club/ baseball bat/ or the heaven forbide (vaginal penetration) of a broken paintbrush. :sick:

And yes he was not going to go to jail because of his age, but ..... I truly believe that the Ramsey's would have done anything to keep their family together. Living with this embarrassment of the "not so" Perfect family well that was just to much for PR.

If they would do "anything" to keep the family together, including life in prison, then the family would no longer be together. That's where this covering for BR thing breaks down.

They could not have been sure of not going to jail - they did have to face a Grand Jury.

I'm not reading anything into Burke's smile, not being a psychiatrist, nor playing one on TV.
 
  • #595
Let's say the R's confessed that Burke had killed JonBenet immediately after it happened. We wouldn't be talking about the case today, but the murder of a child in a very safe small city would probably get some local coverage. Surely, people who knew the R's, and families whose kids attended High Peaks, and neighbors would know that JonBenet was killed by Burke. We can think of it like: No one would know about it except for people who knew the family...but for everyone you know to find out you murdered your sister is a huge deal.


But those people close to the family would have found out anyway, don't you think? I don't think the secret would have kept within the family.
 
  • #596
If they would do "anything" to keep the family together, including life in prison, then the family would no longer be together. That's where this covering for BR thing breaks down.

They could not have been sure of not going to jail - they did have to face a Grand Jury.

I'm not reading anything into Burke's smile, not being a psychiatrist, nor playing one on TV.

Was the Grand Jury really a threat to JR and PR? According to ST it was a joke. If I remember correctly JR was very good friends with the govener of Colorado at that time. Also it seems that although they have re-opened the case which is cold they only focus on touch DNA. According to ST there is a locker room full of evidence that has never even been looked at. The people in high office know what happened and imo that is why this case will go unsolved. Money talks = pure and simple.

MOO - BR smiling during his sister's funeral and graveside was odd. I remember seeing JAR holding his stomach. Afterwards PR holding her throat? JR stoic as always.
 
  • #597
BR has grown up relatively uneventfully since his sister's death. There hasn't been much about him until recently when he was asked to speak to LE again about the events of that night. His lawyer, the infamous LW, refused on his behalf. He is now a young man in his late twenties, and it is presumed he will go on to have a normal, happy life.
This would NOT be the case if his parents had admitted his involvement (if he actually was involved). While it is true that he would have faced no prosecution or jail time or even indictment, it would certainly have tainted his future and the normal, happy life would have been almost impossible to achieve.
If he was involved, psychiatric treatment would certainly have been indicated, and in other States, even mandated. But thanks to the ultra-liberal state of Colorado, that help could never have been mandated thanks to their laws on child criminals.

And the smiling face at his sister's funeral speaks volumes.....
 
  • #598
BR has grown up relatively uneventfully since his sister's death. There hasn't been much about him until recently when he was asked to speak to LE again about the events of that night. His lawyer, the infamous LW, refused on his behalf. He is now a young man in his late twenties, and it is presumed he will go on to have a normal, happy life.
This would NOT be the case if his parents had admitted his involvement (if he actually was involved). While it is true that he would have faced no prosecution or jail time or even indictment, it would certainly have tainted his future and the normal, happy life would have been almost impossible to achieve.
If he was involved, psychiatric treatment would certainly have been indicated, and in other States, even mandated. But thanks to the ultra-liberal state of Colorado, that help could never have been mandated thanks to their laws on child criminals.

And the smiling face at his sister's funeral speaks volumes.....

DeeDee249,
I know I saw recently an interview of JR speaking of BR and how he did have psychiatric treatments through out these years as well as JR but I do not recall it at the moment.
And thank you for speaking up about the smiling face speaking volumes! Odd indeed.
 
  • #599
Was the Grand Jury really a threat to JR and PR? According to ST it was a joke. If I remember correctly JR was very good friends with the govener of Colorado at that time. Also it seems that although they have re-opened the case which is cold they only focus on touch DNA. According to ST there is a locker room full of evidence that has never even been looked at. The people in high office know what happened and imo that is why this case will go unsolved. Money talks = pure and simple.

MOO - BR smiling during his sister's funeral and graveside was odd. I remember seeing JAR holding his stomach. Afterwards PR holding her throat? JR stoic as always.

When a GJ is deciding whether or not to indict you for murder, you are at risk.
 
  • #600
BR has grown up relatively uneventfully since his sister's death. There hasn't been much about him until recently when he was asked to speak to LE again about the events of that night. His lawyer, the infamous LW, refused on his behalf. He is now a young man in his late twenties, and it is presumed he will go on to have a normal, happy life.
This would NOT be the case if his parents had admitted his involvement (if he actually was involved). While it is true that he would have faced no prosecution or jail time or even indictment, it would certainly have tainted his future and the normal, happy life would have been almost impossible to achieve.
If he was involved, psychiatric treatment would certainly have been indicated, and in other States, even mandated. But thanks to the ultra-liberal state of Colorado, that help could never have been mandated thanks to their laws on child criminals.

And the smiling face at his sister's funeral speaks volumes.....


I disagree. None of us would be talking about the case had Burke been ID'd as the culprit back in '96. In fact very few of us would even have heard of the case in '96, much less still be talking about it now.

I don't see how it would taint his future. He'd still have rich parents to pave his way in life. The only people that would really know his "secret" would be family and close friends. And if BDI is true, then it's likely family and close friends know about it. The only difference is what the public thinks - and a portion of the public still wonders if BDI - and that doesn't seem to have much adverse effect on his life. If the case were closed in '96 he'd live in anonymity. Again, had it come out in '96 none of us on this board would be discussing the case. The public wouldn't know BR from Adam.

As to the smile, I still maintain that I'm not a psychiatrist, nor do I play one on the interweb, so I'm going to offer no armchair analysis.
 
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