Was JonBenet Posed?

[twizzler333]

Well, I have to say, I am one who started out believing the Ramsey's were guilty or obviously had something to do with it but after reading the books, seeing the absolutely inadequate way the LE handled the case from the get go, looking at some of the evidence that is available to us, and a few other things I have changed my mind and I suspect they had nothing to do with it.

I am not having a fit over it, as apparently it must seem to some on this board. I am just trying to understand a few things and I really think there are few suspects that have been cleared by LE that really need a second look.

I absolutely respect all the theories and the information they provide here on this forum. I just don't necessarily agree with them all. There are some really good points made here and some are just too far fetched for me to even comprehend. I just really hope that no matter who did this, somehow something is done to solve this case, and soon.

 

[sissi]

Well, I have to say, I am one who started out believing the Ramsey's were guilty or obviously had something to do with it but after reading the books, seeing the absolutely inadequate way the LE handled the case from the get go, looking at some of the evidence that is available to us, and a few other things I have changed my mind and I suspect they had nothing to do with it.

I am not having a fit over it, as apparently it must seem to some on this board. I am just trying to understand a few things and I really think there are few suspects that have been cleared by LE that really need a second look.

I absolutely respect all the theories and the information they provide here on this forum. I just don't necessarily agree with them all. There are some really good points made here and some are just too far fetched for me to even comprehend. I just really hope that no matter who did this, somehow something is done to solve this case, and soon.

Well said Twizzler!
Farfetched is where I'm going today..here's some rainy day reading!

http://www.anthropoetics.ucla.edu/ap0902/sacrifice.htm

 

[VespaElf]

After reading Singular's book, I felt there was more to this murder than any other current "whodunnit". Without detailing for the reader, after volumes having been said about child and such, he mentioned ONE item in ONE sentence that made me curious about Boulder and the people who aren't really mainstreamed into the population.
Sure ! Boulder is heavily populated with intellectuals and philosophers,(brother moon could find many compeers ),but these people generally are trying to find their meaning of life, not trying to destroy life. Having said this, I know that among the beat set, there will be followers who are schizzy or worse, and sure one may have taken Mcelroy's stuff too literally ..but somehow I doubt it.
There is an uglier side to Boulder, recognising it would be heretic for any upstanding Boulderite.
It's not made up, it's real!

Cultists may follow drug routes into state

Boulderite studies ritual of cultists

By Kevin McCullen, Rocky Mountain News
Published: April 15, 1989







BOULDER -- Followers of a violent cult similar to the one involved in human sacrifices in Mexico could follow drug routes into Colorado, a Boulder police detective said yesterday.

Believers in Palo Mayombe, a violent offshoot of the religion Santeria, are circulating in the Cuban community, particularly in Florida, said Detective Lt. Jerry Hoover, who studies Santeria and Satanism as part of his doctorate work in anthropology.

Santerians already are in Colorado, and Boulder police last summer found an altar inside a home during a cocaine bust and a feather "offering" on the steps of a church.

and this story over a hundred years old..

Who read archives of Rocky Mountain news, read for the following, "scrutiny, knots, etc.? !800's...a side note for entertainment
http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/spookymountainnews/05071876.shtml

I read this in the Weekly World News!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[sissi]

I read this in the Weekly World News!!!!!!!!!!!

hmmm..interesting choice for information

I put up some suggestions ,no one has to read them.

http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/weird/constanzo/1.html

Mutilation and pain were essential to palo mayombe. Blood and viscera fed the nganga, manipulated with sticks as Constanzo tuned in the spirit world. The demons he served were more likely to smile on a sacrifice that died in agony. “They must die screaming,” El Padrino told his flock. As for the point in nearly every
........The discoveries at Matamoros were tailor-made for tabloid television circa 1989. Geraldo Rivera aired a special prime-time segment on the case, while TV journalists flew in from the United States, Europe, and even Japan. Constanzo was “sighted” as far north as Chicago, where rumors placed him in league with the Windy City Mafia. Sara Aldrete was “seen” lurking around schools throughout the Rio Grande Valley, word-of-mouth reports claiming she had threatened to kidnap and murder 10 Anglo children for each of her disciples jailed in Mexico. An alternative church at Pharr, Texas, was burned by nightriders after tales spread that its congregants were witches in thrall to Constanzo.

Author of the link a few posts back
Dawn Perlmutter, Ph.D.
Assistant Professor of Art & Philosophy
Cheyney University of Pennsylvania
http://www.anthropoetics.ucla.edu/ap0902/sacrifice.htm#n16

 

[sissi]

Here's something that bothered me today. In a google search for "groups used by Mike Mcelry as prophet@ bigfoot, I found one, then hit a button and saw this.
From: [email protected] (Prophet)
Subject: Serial Killer Web Library
Date: 1997/03/03
Message-ID: <[email protected]>#1/1
Organization: Earthlink Network, Inc.
Keywords: serial kill mass murder death torture jonbenet ramsey
Newsgroups: alt.true-crime



Please take advantage of the Serial Killer Reading Room online. And do not
hesitate to explore all of the controversial Web site, Wide Awake!

edit to add..I did the search using only prophet@ bigfoot groups...I used no other words...after several "popped up"..I clicked show this thread..then clicked original format..
Mcelroy was NOT looked into in 97 it was 98 ( an error in Shapiro's account of him)

 

[VespaElf]

hmmm..interesting choice for information

I put up some suggestions ,no one has to read them.

http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/weird/constanzo/1.html

Mutilation and pain were essential to palo mayombe. Blood and viscera fed the nganga, manipulated with sticks as Constanzo tuned in the spirit world. The demons he served were more likely to smile on a sacrifice that died in agony. “They must die screaming,” El Padrino told his flock. As for the point in nearly every
........The discoveries at Matamoros were tailor-made for tabloid television circa 1989. Geraldo Rivera aired a special prime-time segment on the case, while TV journalists flew in from the United States, Europe, and even Japan. Constanzo was “sighted” as far north as Chicago, where rumors placed him in league with the Windy City Mafia. Sara Aldrete was “seen” lurking around schools throughout the Rio Grande Valley, word-of-mouth reports claiming she had threatened to kidnap and murder 10 Anglo children for each of her disciples jailed in Mexico. An alternative church at Pharr, Texas, was burned by nightriders after tales spread that its congregants were witches in thrall to Constanzo.

Author of the link a few posts back
Dawn Perlmutter, Ph.D.
Assistant Professor of Art & Philosophy
Cheyney University of Pennsylvania
http://www.anthropoetics.ucla.edu/ap0902/sacrifice.htm#n16

No one has them read because it has NOTHING to do w/ the JonBenet case!!!!!!!!!!!!


You're so far off track! Honestly it's not this complicated "voo-doo" cloak & dagger ,red herring stuff!!!!!
I guess it makes for ,to some people ,interesting reading but in light of what we do know I fail to see how it applies at all to JBR.

Next you'll tell us about how the Masons built a secret fortress under the Denver Airport and sacrificed JBR (although that theory has already been shot down on here!)

 

[sissi]

No one has them read because it has NOTHING to do w/ the JonBenet case!!!!!!!!!!!!


You're so far off track! Honestly it's not this complicated "voo-doo" cloak & dagger ,red herring stuff!!!!!
I guess it makes for ,to some people ,interesting reading but in light of what we do know I fail to see how it applies at all to JBR.

Next you'll tell us about how the Masons built a secret fortress under the Denver Airport and sacrificed JBR (although that theory has already been shot down on here!)

I feel the same about those that feel a Ramsey killed their child. It's so far fetched!
Recently, in my city, we had a gruesome crime,which was quickly solved by our city's finest, the suspects were arrested, will stand trial, case closed!
However the mother, the aunt, the father, the uncle, all claim the suspects are innocent. The mother, when she walked into her home screamed in Spanish ,"THEY'VE killed my family". The arrested suspects are innocent according to the family, they happened upon the crime, and fled out of fear, they didn't commit it!
This entire family , one of illegal Mexican immigrants, quickly returned to their native country and buried their children,coming back only to offer any assistance they can to the two very young relatives that are soon to stand trial for the murders.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,121143,00.html

Several years ago, a neighbor couple of mine, young newlyweds, were found dead , their throats slashed with plastic bags over their heads. Never solved!

When I read, I learn.

 

[sissi]

http://www.ci.longmont.co.us/police/crimeupdate/mostwanted.htm

http://www.co.boulder.co.us/sheriff/most_wanted/wanted.htm

hmm..I didn't know this, just decided to look today...

Yes, I realize I am talking to myself

 

[Ivy]

Hi, sissi. You didn't know what? That there are baddies everywhere?

Btw, none of the baddies at those two sites look as if they'd know how to spell "attache," even if they knew what one was.

imo

 

[sissi]

Hi, sissi. You didn't know what? That there are baddies everywhere?

Btw, none of the baddies at those two sites look as if they'd know how to spell "attache," even if they knew what one was.

imo

Yep,Ivy, I know there are baddies everywhere, I was just surprised that the ratio seemed off. Why are the Mexicans so over represented? Boulder doesn't seem to take well to immigrants or the poor, as illustrated by the "HATE" posters and organizations that are geared toward hate. There seems to be a very big division, the rich...the poor...nothing in between.
http://www.americanpatrol.com/CRIME/2002-UP/CO/ImportRapistFlyer030802CO_.html

 

[Valindrea]

I don't believe for a minute that she was posed. Her arms were over her head because that is the position her body was left in after it was dragged by the panicky killer (imo, Burke) to hide it. By the time John and Patsy saw the body (or decided what to do with it), the body was in rigor.

imo

I agree, she wasn't posed.

 

[BrotherMoon]

Of course she was posed.

The arms were STRAIGHT.

If an unconscious body is placed on it's back with the arms up over the head, the arms will tend to bend at the elbow and shoulder. They won't remain straight. The arms were straight. The means to hold them straight until rigor were found on the body. Those cords held the arms straight unitl rigor.

It's one thing to assume staging for police. It's another to figure out why the body was held in a position.

 

[BlueCrab]

Of course she was posed.

The arms were STRAIGHT.

If an unconscious body is placed on it's back with the arms up over the head, the arms will tend to bend at the elbow and shoulder. They won't remain straight. The arms were straight. The means to hold them straight until rigor were found on the body. Those cords held the arms straight unitl rigor.

It's one thing to assume staging for police. It's another to figure out why the body was held in a position.

BrotherMoon,

I agree with you. It appears the arms were kept straight and overhead by means of a weight or tension of some kind -- perhaps the body itself if she was partially strung up.

JMO

 

[Ivy]

So what if her arms were held straight by the cords till rigor set in? That doesn't mean she was posed.

I don't know if you're right about the arms bending at the elbow and shoulder in an unconscious person, BrotherMoon. Where did you get the information? If it's true, does it necessarily follow that the same applies to a dead person?

imo

 

[TLynn]

It's easier to bend your arms when overhead -

When they're straight-up, the shoulder blades get in the way. (I just tried it) :blushing:

Interesting point about the arms being straight overhead.

 

[BrotherMoon]

So what if her arms were held straight by the cords till rigor set in? That doesn't mean she was posed.

I don't know if you're right about the arms bending at the elbow and shoulder in an unconscious person, BrotherMoon. Where did you get the information? If it's true, does it necessarily follow that the same applies to a dead person?

imo

I knocked my 6 yr. old, 47" tall, grandson unconscious and laid him down with his arms straight up. The arms bent to a 135 degree at the elbow and shoulder every time. My grandson is very tired of my investigation of this case.

 

[BlueCrab]

So what if her arms were held straight by the cords till rigor set in? That doesn't mean she was posed.

I don't know if you're right about the arms bending at the elbow and shoulder in an unconscious person, BrotherMoon. Where did you get the information? If it's true, does it necessarily follow that the same applies to a dead person?

imo

Ivy,

It appears the elbows, when JonBenet was found, were slightly bent, but not far enough for the arms to assume a natural "comfortable" position. To demonstrate:

Lie on your back in your bed. Raise your arms, with hands clasped, over the top of your head until the arms are touching the bed and resting comfortably. You will likely find your elbows bent as far as they can go and your hands touching the top of your head, because this is normally the most comfortable position for them when you are lying on your back with the arms over your head.

JonBenet's arms were not in this position. It appeared they were reaching. So I'm suggesting, and I think BrotherMoon is too, that JonBenet's arms, bound at the wrists, had been tied to something that tended to unnaturally straighten them. This would be evidence the body had been posed.

JMO

 

[BrotherMoon]

So what if her arms were held straight by the cords till rigor set in? That doesn't mean she was posed.

Positioned, posed, what do you read into it???????????????????

The arms were held in position, very little question.

If the crime was staged for police, why do that, then wrap the body, then "discover" the body, then remove the tape and bring the body up instead of telling police to come see it the way it was originally staged?

I see personal meaning in what was done to the body, including the placement in the small room, not done for police, but for the perp alone.

 

[BrotherMoon]

Ivy,

It appears the elbows, when JonBenet was found, were slightly bent, but not far enough for the arms to assume a natural "comfortable" position. To demonstrate:

Lie on your back in your bed. Raise your arms, with hands clasped, over the top of your head until the arms are touching the bed and resting comfortably. You will likely find your elbows bent as far as they can go and your hands touching the top of your head, because this is normally the most comfortable position for them when you are lying on your back with the arms over your head.

JonBenet's arms were not in this position. It appeared they were reaching. So I'm suggesting, and I think BrotherMoon is too, that JonBenet's arms, bound at the wrists, had been tied to something that tended to unnaturally straighten them. This would be evidence the body had been posed.

JMO

You're starting to scare me BC. If you keep making sense I'm going to have to take out my frustrations on someone else.

 

[sissi]

I knocked my 6 yr. old, 47" tall, grandson unconscious and laid him down with his arms straight up. The arms bent to a 135 degree at the elbow and shoulder every time. My grandson is very tired of my investigation of this case.

OMG this is too funny..thanks for the laugh...