What do we really know about dec 24 .06

[itsreenw]

ok, PMPT is getting good. I am reading excerpts from JBR's dance teacher that said PR took JBR to dance lessons 3 times a week. When PR introduced JBR to the woman she said "My little girl's name is Jonbenet and I want her to be able to dance and sing." (SHE wanted JBR to be able to dance & sing")
I must add, it does say JBR never complained.

PR and Nedra (PR's mom) made sure the dance teacher knew that PR was a former beauty queen and Miss VA, and competed in Miss America. Blah, blah. blah... (Patsy was still trying to have the limelight) She said PR brought in her own music for JBR's routine and insisted on teaching JBR the routine herself.

The teacher said 'so there they were side by side-mother and daughter" doing this routine and it became obvious to her that PR wanted to be "up there" (on stage). She finally had to tell PR, "Patsy, you're a pest, sit down and be quiet". She said she never got to see JBR perform because she died that winter, but when she saw the pageant clips on the news, someone else had been working with JBR on her routine apparently. She said she never taught JBR those suggestive moves. She added "nobody should ever do that to a 6 yr old"

I have often wondered if JBR woke up or was awaken by PR and was taken downstairs to have some pineapple and while they were downstairs the pageant talk came up. I have considered the possibility that maybe PR wanted JBR to practice her routine that night to show her older brother and sis the next day or maybe even for an upcoming pageant.

PR may have taken her to the basement so the music wouldn't wake BR or JR. It is possible that JBR wasn't getting her steps right and PR got angry or maybe JBR was tired and refused to try anymore. She was known to be a bit feisty with her mom.

I watched a show about 'pageant moms" and found they are similar to 'softball moms/dads'- Ya know, the has-beens that are trying to relive their youth through their kids.

After a while the kids get fed up with all that pressure. I wonder if that night, little JBR got tired of being a puppet and crossed her arms, stomped her foot and in a 6 yr old's vocabulary, told Patsy to "f*ck off".

I believe PR could have gotten THAT mad at JBR for not cooperating when it came to the pageant biz-after all, that was a reflection of HER.

 

[IrishMist]

What (on Earth) does Alice in Wonderland have to do with the real murder of JBR. I think I'll stick to my claim that nobody has (in actual real life, not in a fantasy make-believe story) used the term behead in reference to a child before.

Instead of waiting for a link, I got interested, and did a search. Does anyone remember Precious Doe?

www.columbiatribune.com/2005/Dec/20051204News026.asp

 

[narlacat]

QUOTE>>The pageants were Patsy's gig. JonBenet was her alter ego. Patsy had the money, she had the costumes and ......she had the kid.<<

Kit Andre.
(the teacher you mention itsreenw)

 

[narlacat]

QUOTE>>I believe PR could have gotten THAT mad at JBR for not cooperating when it came to the pageant biz-after all, that was a reflection of HER.<<

Maybe not that night though. I think Patsy would have been too tired to be taking JonBenet on a mighnight dance lesson in the basement.
She was also doing last minute things for their trip the next day.
But again, it's not out of the realm of possibility.
Until we know for sure what happened that night any one of the theories getting around these forum's could be right.

 

[itsreenw]

QUOTE>>I believe PR could have gotten THAT mad at JBR for not cooperating when it came to the pageant biz-after all, that was a reflection of HER.<<

Maybe not that night though. I think Patsy would have been too tired to be taking JonBenet on a mighnight dance lesson in the basement.
She was also doing last minute things for their trip the next day.
But again, it's not out of the realm of possibility.
Until we know for sure what happened that night any one of the theories getting around these forum's could be right.

Narlacat, I agree, there are several plausible theories. but who says PR was too tired to have JBR do her song and dance, with the tradeoff being a bowl of pineapple? SOMEONE was up that night and fixed the bowl of pineapple-that's a fact. IMO, SOMETHING kept PR up all night. They interviewed associates of the R's who said in so many words, that PR was always done up to the extreme...hair always perfectly coiffed & always over dressed just in her daily activities so I find it hard to believe that on a holiday, PR got up and threw on the same outfit she wore the day before. I think PR was up all night and never did sleep. I don't think she intended to be up ALL night, but circumstances changed.

I wonder if LE searched the trash cans in her bathrooms for evidence that she ever took her makeup off the night before. Such as a tissue with foundation or makeup remover on it or a soiled face towel with makeup. I think she may have 'freshened up' the makeup she already had on from the night before. She didn't mention taking off makeup when LE asked her the details of her actions the night of the 25th so the makeup should've been on her pillow case. IMO, she didn't shower, change clothes or apply new makeup the a.m. of the 26th because she never went to bed.

 

[itsreenw]

QUOTE>>The pageants were Patsy's gig. JonBenet was her alter ego. Patsy had the money, she had the costumes and ......she had the kid.<<

Kit Andre.
(the teacher you mention itsreenw)

Narlacat, that's the name!!! Thanx, BM&Y (between me & you), I was too lazy to get up and get the book to get the name-shame on me.

 

[Becba]

Narlacat, that's the name!!! Thanx, BM&Y (between me & you), I was too lazy to get up and get the book to get the name-shame on me.

I have 3 of the books if anyone wants them. PM me and I can send it to you. I was using them for reference but realised I was too lazy to look up a page number IF I found the book it was from.

 

[narlacat]

QUOTE>> I think she may have 'freshened up' the makeup she already had on from the night before<<

Me too.

 

[Zman]

Zman, the Ramseys were asked to leave the house but it wasn't until after they both expressed that they wanted to leave. Per Patsy's statement in her deposition, she said one of the 1st thoughts after seeing JBR dead was to get out of that house and never return:

From PR's 12/11/01 deposition with Chris Wolf:

"I think John said she was gone and he was crying and we kneeled over her and I felt her cheek and her cheek and she was really cold and (inaudible) cold (inaudible) and I just prayed to God to bring her back (inaudible) and so I just (inaudible) she wouldn’t be there anymore and get out of this house and I’m never coming back (inaudible). *Sorry. I don’t remember what happened after that."

*HER SELECTIVE MEMORY JUST KILLS ME!!! :banghead:

JR wanted to leave the state & take PR and BR (but no mention of his other kids that had come to town):

At around 1:45pm, Mason & Walker were planning to move the R's to the Holiday Inn, however, before they informed the R's, JR was overheard in his study, on the phone with his pilot making plans to fly somewhere before nightfall. JR TOLD Mason that he, Patsy and Burke would be flying to Atlanta for that ever-so-important biz. Mason told JR to cool his heels because he had some unfinished biz with BPD.

That "good ol' southern common sense" should have told him that BPD would want to have a lil' talk with him that day. Heck, HE should've wanted to talk to THEM-don't ya think??

It don't really matter what PR wanted to do or not. What she stated in your above quote has little relevance.
I'm sure LE was going to empty that house and ask them to leave as soon as possible.
Still this is 5 hours after I'm already convinced their innocent.

 

[Nuisanceposter]

It don't really matter what PR wanted to do or not. What she stated in your above quote has little relevance.
I'm sure LE was going to empty that house and ask them to leave as soon as possible.
Still this is 5 hours after I'm already convinced their innocent.

Yeah, ask them to leave the house, but not leave Boulder, much less the state of Colorado. What business suddenly came up that JR had to arrange for a flight for him and Patsy and Burke out of state? The discovery of their daughter's corpse. If JonBenet hadn't died during that session of strangling and molestation, they would have been in Michigan by that point celebrating Christmas with the older children. Do you think John would have had the same pressing business and arrange for a flight for him and Patsy and Burke out of Michigan to Atlanta if their plans hadn't fallen through? He was arranging for them to get out of Dodge, and that makes them look guilty as sin. Why on earth wouldn't they want to stay and help the police catch the killer before any more time elapsed? Because one of them was the killer! That's the only reason to run away right away like that.

 

[Zman]

Yeah, ask them to leave the house, but not leave Boulder, much less the state of Colorado. What business suddenly came up that JR had to arrange for a flight for him and Patsy and Burke out of state? The discovery of their daughter's corpse. If JonBenet hadn't died during that session of strangling and molestation, they would have been in Michigan by that point celebrating Christmas with the older children. Do you think John would have had the same pressing business and arrange for a flight for him and Patsy and Burke out of Michigan to Atlanta if their plans hadn't fallen through? He was arranging for them to get out of Dodge, and that makes them look guilty as sin. Why on earth wouldn't they want to stay and help the police catch the killer before any more time elapsed? Because one of them was the killer! That's the only reason to run away right away like that.

I still don't know for sure that JR said anything like that other than second hand heresay.
Do you think that JBR was strangled and molested before or was this a first time. If not don't you think someone would notice the marks around her neck? But if you think this was the first time then why would JR or PR pick christmas night for a first attempt at molesting their daughter with an early trip planned the next morning and all her family around to see the marks and evidence? Does that make any sense at all?

 

[itsreenw]

I still don't know for sure that JR said anything like that other than second hand heresay.
Do you think that JBR was strangled and molested before or was this a first time. If not don't you think someone would notice the marks around her neck? But if you think this was the first time then why would JR or PR pick christmas night for a first attempt at molesting their daughter with an early trip planned the next morning and all her family around to see the marks and evidence? Does that make any sense at all?

Zman, referring to your response to my previous post...PR's comments made in her depo of what she was thinking within minutes of seeing seeing her daughter's body is TOTALLY relevant, just as her actions were. I am sure you are aware that LE takes note of all that to see if the person's behavior is considered normal by LE standards.

IMO, PR & JR tried to act their way out of suspicion and it didn't work. From what I read, PR was in the sunroom with the guests (you know, the ones she called over even though the RN said not to??)

Everyone else seemed to have heard JR and his fake crying act when he 'found' JBR. Patsy-being the doped up drama queen (DUDQ) that she is, had to be helped into the room (the leading lady makes her entrance-drumroll please...) then DUDQ suddenly gets a clear head, takes a pole vaulter's sprint toward JR & JBR and starts with her lines (here's a shortened version of her b.s.) " Jesus raised Nazareth from the dead (she has to explain that so everybody in the room can follow along) raise her from the dead, my baby's gone, oh Jesus, help me please..I'm getting outta this house and I'm never comin' back.

Huh??? You're gettin outta...??

Hold on Patsy, you jumped ahead in the script. Your dead kid's still layin' here with a cord wrapped around her neck!! Uh, yes Zman, I do believe her statement was relevant.

Regarding your above quote, your questions weren't directed to me but I'll give you my 2 cents anyway... only time strangled, molested before by PR.

And of course what JR said is 2nd hand hearsay since you weren't there. JR has never disputed the LE's report of the conversation that was overheard by LE between JR and his pilot, & you know the R's would've sued that cop in a heartbeat if they felt they had a reason to. .

 

[narlacat]

QUOTE>>only time strangled, molested before by PR.<<

Hi Itsreenw
How do you mean molested by PR?
Sorry if I've missed something, I think you posted something along those lines on another thread and maybe I didn't ask you what you mean by that then, but I think I meant to....lol..maybe I just didnt follow the thread properly and missed your reply...or maybe it wasn't even you that said it, but I think it was!!
I'll go see if you have a theory in the theories thread.

 

[narlacat]

QUOTE>>IMO, PR & JR tried to act their way out of suspicion and it didn't work.<<

IMO, PR & JR tried to act their way out of being involved in their daughter's death and it did work!

 

[Nuisanceposter]

I don't think JonBenet had been strangled before, but I definitely believe someone had been molesting her for a while- I think the medical records support that idea. I also suspect it may have been PR, but also suspect JR to a slightly lesser extent. I think Patsy already had a screw loose in general and snapped on Christmas night and accidentally killed her daughter during a session of control and punishment, then came up with the kidnapper scenario and John felt he had to help her to save the rest of them from jail or ruin or whatever.

 

[BlueCrab]

I don't think JonBenet had been strangled before, but I definitely believe someone had been molesting her for a while- I think the medical records support that idea. I also suspect it may have been PR, but also suspect JR to a slightly lesser extent. I think Patsy already had a screw loose in general and snapped on Christmas night and accidentally killed her daughter during a session of control and punishment, then came up with the kidnapper scenario and John felt he had to help her to save the rest of them from jail or ruin or whatever.

Nuisanceposter,

I agree with the incest part of your post. The evidence from the autopsy report and from the testimony of the team of doctors who analyzed the report and examined the microscopic slides make it clear that JonBenet had acute AND chronic injuries to the vagina, suggesting incest and possible familial incest. Only family members would have had the opportunity to sexually abuse JonBenet on different days of the week.

BlueCrab

 

[Zman]

Zman, referring to your response to my previous post...PR's comments made in her depo of what she was thinking within minutes of seeing seeing her daughter's body is TOTALLY relevant, just as her actions were. I am sure you are aware that LE takes note of all that to see if the person's behavior is considered normal by LE standards.

IMO, PR & JR tried to act their way out of suspicion and it didn't work. From what I read, PR was in the sunroom with the guests (you know, the ones she called over even though the RN said not to??)

Everyone else seemed to have heard JR and his fake crying act when he 'found' JBR. Patsy-being the doped up drama queen (DUDQ) that she is, had to be helped into the room (the leading lady makes her entrance-drumroll please...) then DUDQ suddenly gets a clear head, takes a pole vaulter's sprint toward JR & JBR and starts with her lines (here's a shortened version of her b.s.) " Jesus raised Nazareth from the dead (she has to explain that so everybody in the room can follow along) raise her from the dead, my baby's gone, oh Jesus, help me please..I'm getting outta this house and I'm never comin' back.

Huh??? You're gettin outta...??

Hold on Patsy, you jumped ahead in the script. Your dead kid's still layin' here with a cord wrapped around her neck!! Uh, yes Zman, I do believe her statement was relevant.

Regarding your above quote, your questions weren't directed to me but I'll give you my 2 cents anyway... only time strangled, molested before by PR.

And of course what JR said is 2nd hand hearsay since you weren't there. JR has never disputed the LE's report of the conversation that was overheard by LE between JR and his pilot, & you know the R's would've sued that cop in a heartbeat if they felt they had a reason to. .

Yes a persons reaction is of great importance to a "good" and experienced LE company. We don't have one here.

I was not there I really don't know what happened or who said what other than what I can read. And that depends only on what people remember and their personal emotional response to the actions of others. That at it's best is only a 50/50 chance at the truth.

The R's were going to have to leave the house(crime scene)wanting to or not.

Even if PR pleaded to stay. She was going to have to leave.

Again, I need to be convinced at 6 am not 1pm.

Do I think the reactions are strange? Yes.

Do I think they wrote the RN? No

Do I think they staged JBR's body? No

This is what I'm sure ST's problem was. If the R's are guilty of this crime he has to prove it from 10pm on the 25th to 6 am of the 26th. Can't go into court and say they reacted funny as your main evidence.

 

[itsreenw]

QUOTE>>only time strangled, molested before by PR.<<

Hi Itsreenw
How do you mean molested by PR?
Sorry if I've missed something, I think you posted something along those lines on another thread and maybe I didn't ask you what you mean by that then, but I think I meant to....lol..maybe I just didnt follow the thread properly and missed your reply...or maybe it wasn't even you that said it, but I think it was!!
I'll go see if you have a theory in the theories thread.

Hi Narlacat,
I believe PR was touching, penetrating with her fingers or foreign objects. Her hyman was not completely gone, a thin rim of tissue remained so I don't think anyone had actual intercourse with her. I think PR has some issues with herself. I also believe she may have been molested herself as a child. She obviously felt it was ok to make JBR up like a 30 yr old woman and the dance instructor said she didn't teach JBR those seductive moves that the nation saw in the pageant vid clips. She felt someone must've been working with her at home. IMO, it is not normal for a parent to encourage a 6 yr old to gyrate and swing her hips back & forth, blow kisses, etc... to win a pageant or anything else. That is teaching a child to use her sexuality to get attention.
I believe most of the time PR did view JBR as her 6 yr old daughter but when it came to the pageants, I think JBR was an object to PR and I do believe at times, PR detached herself mentally and abused JBR.

And about those size 12 undies, I think PR bought them to fit over JBR's Pull-Ups. I am sure JBR was embarrassed that she had to wear diapers at 6 and PR certainly would be embarrassed if JBR were out in public and had an acccident OR if someone could see that JBR had on Pull-Ups.

 

[itsreenw]

QUOTE>>IMO, PR & JR tried to act their way out of suspicion and it didn't work.<<

IMO, PR & JR tried to act their way out of being involved in their daughter's death and it did work!

I don't think the acting job worked. People still believe they did it. They just got lucky that Linda Arndt's lack of common sense blew the whole case from the gate. Even amateurs would know to get secure the crime scene immediately and not send civilians looking for evidence. The R's social status gave them privileges that us common folk would've never been afforded.

 

[Nuisanceposter]

And about those size 12 undies, I think PR bought them to fit over JBR's Pull-Ups. I am sure JBR was embarrassed that she had to wear diapers at 6 and PR certainly would be embarrassed if JBR were out in public and had an acccident OR if someone could see that JBR had on Pull-Ups.

Good thinking. That could very well be right.