What if...

[ellen13]

I went back to Ramsey's resources and links and looked at all of the players.

Someone with the initials of DS are listed, but no one with NI-another mystery:doh:

 

[Shanny]

Narlacat your post remined me fo something I read in the book "JonBenet" by Steve Thomas, in the book it said that when Patsy was sick with cancer she sworn she would no die and leave her family behind because she didn't want " A certain blonde b**ch down the street to steal her husband."
Does anyone know who Patsy was talking about ?

Oh ok, thanks Rupert.
I vaguely remember that now and I seem to remember someone saying that about Patsy not wanting to hire women prettier than herself.
And to guess why, I'd say because she was a self obsessed woman who didn't like to share the limelight.
Is that a trick question??

 

[Jayelles]

No, but there is a pattern going on. John Ramsey's first marriage ended because he had an affair with Gloria Williams (?).

Then there is the comment about the blonde b*tch.

Then two or three years ago, there was a tabloid newspaper report about Patsy cutting short her cancer treatment to go home and get her "ducks in a row" after John was allegedly spending too much time with a woman who shared an interest in gardening with him. "Family sources" were reported as saying they were very concerned about her.

Then John himself admitted that after jonbenet's murder, he tracked down Gloria Williams and sat outside her home in his car.
There was also the bizarre Kimberley Ballard episode. This happened before my time on the forums so I am not entirely familiar with it, but she claimed she'd had an affair with john Ramsey. I think the outcome was that she retracted the story but somewhere along the line she apparently took a polygraph. Some years later someone claiming to be Kimberley Ballard turned up at jameson's forum and said she would answer questions. It was very unclear what she was trying to say over there and she was given a pretty hard time by members and eventually booted out. It seemed to me as though she was saying she hadn't lied but that she hadn't had an affair either - that her words had been twisted.

Perhaps someone else will remember the details.

As far as I am concerned, I wouldn't be surprised if there were "other women" in John Ramsey's life. Gloria Williams hasn't come forward to tell her story. her identity is only known because she broke up his marriage and it came out in the investigation. Why should we suppose that any other woman would come forward? Only a certain type would seek the notoriety and if the woman was married or in another relationship, she would likely remain stumm anyway.

 

[ellen13]

No, but there is a pattern going on. John Ramsey's first marriage ended because he had an affair with Gloria Williams (?).

Then there is the comment about the blonde b*tch.

Then two or three years ago, there was a tabloid newspaper report about Patsy cutting short her cancer treatment to go home and get her "ducks in a row" after John was allegedly spending too much time with a woman who shared an interest in gardening with him. "Family sources" were reported as saying they were very concerned about her.

Then John himself admitted that after jonbenet's murder, he tracked down Gloria Williams and sat outside her home in his car.
There was also the bizarre Kimberley Ballard episode. This happened before my time on the forums so I am not entirely familiar with it, but she claimed she'd had an affair with john Ramsey. I think the outcome was that she retracted the story but somewhere along the line she apparently took a polygraph. Some years later someone claiming to be Kimberley Ballard turned up at jameson's forum and said she would answer questions. It was very unclear what she was trying to say over there and she was given a pretty hard time by members and eventually booted out. It seemed to me as though she was saying she hadn't lied but that she hadn't had an affair either - that her words had been twisted.

Perhaps someone else will remember the details.

As far as I am concerned, I wouldn't be surprised if there were "other women" in John Ramsey's life. Gloria Williams hasn't come forward to tell her story. her identity is only known because she broke up his marriage and it came out in the investigation. Why should we suppose that any other woman would come forward? Only a certain type would seek the notoriety and if the woman was married or in another relationship, she would likely remain stumm anyway.

Wow, as I'm sitting here dumbfounded and stunned with this info!

 

[trixie]

Oh ok, thanks Rupert.
I vaguely remember that now and I seem to remember someone saying that about Patsy not wanting to hire women prettier than herself.
And to guess why, I'd say because she was a self obsessed woman who didn't like to share the limelight.
Is that a trick question??

HA! And here we have a YOUNG, BEAUTIFUL JONBENET who didn't have cancer and who still had her whole life ahead of her. Think Patsy Ramsey was jealous of her daughter? She was everything Patsy no longer was.

 

[Jayelles]

HA! And here we have a YOUNG, BEAUTIFUL JONBENET who didn't have cancer and who still had her whole life ahead of her. Think Patsy Ramsey was jealous of her daughter? She was everything Patsy no longer was.

I would personally rather face death than lose a child.

 

[dingo]

I would personally rather face death than lose a child.

Me too

 

[Shanny]

In the book
Who Will Speak for JonBenet? and A Mother Gone Bad by Andrew Hodges, he said that Patsy might have been jealous of JonBenet and her father's realtionship. He also said that Patsy might have been forcing JonBenet on to John by making her do her pageants and dressing like a grown woman. Every suggestion seems weird to me, I can't imagine Patsy being jealous of her own daughter but then again the pageants were just plain weird too.

HA! And here we have a YOUNG, BEAUTIFUL JONBENET who didn't have cancer and who still had her whole life ahead of her. Think Patsy Ramsey was jealous of her daughter? She was everything Patsy no longer was.

 

[rashomon]

HA! And here we have a YOUNG, BEAUTIFUL JONBENET who didn't have cancer and who still had her whole life ahead of her. Think Patsy Ramsey was jealous of her daughter? She was everything Patsy no longer was.

And suppose Patsy caught John molesting JonBenet (which is a very likely possibility imo), is it that far a stretch to imagine that she could have snapped and lost it to the point of striking a violent blow to her head?
A blow so severe that she instantly realized the point of no return had been reached? JonBenet in a coma, possibly nearing death?
Patsy doesn't want to be exposed as her killer, and John doesn't want to be exposed as JB's chronic abuser. So they decide to cover up for each other.

And it is their common guilt which has tied them together up to the present day.
It has been brought up that they as parents would only have covered up for Burke, and that any other cover-up would not make any sense.
But how about covering up for each other? This would make sense too imo.
I suppose they initially wanted to dump the body somewhere, which is why they wrote the ransom note. Snowfall and the fear of being seen made them decide otherwise, which is why they staged the garroting.

Such a scenario seems far more likely imo than having an 'intruder' walking around in that house full of people at Christmas, obviously without any fear of being seen, or claiming that Burke, a nine-year-old kid was engaged in EA games with JB as the willing participant.

 

[trixie]

And suppose Patsy caught John molesting JonBenet (which is a very likely possibility imo), is it that far a stretch to imagine that she could have snapped and lost it to the point of striking a violent blow to her head?
A blow so severe that she instantly realized the point of no return had been reached? JonBenet in a coma, possibly nearing death?
Patsy doesn't want to be exposed as her killer, and John doesn't want to be exposed as JB's chronic abuser. So they decide to cover up for each other.

And it is their common guilt which has tied them together up to the present day.
It has been brought up that they as parents would only have covered up for Burke, and that any other cover-up would not make any sense.
But how about covering up for each other? This would make sense too imo.
I suppose they initially wanted to dump the body somewhere, which is why they wrote the ransom note. Snowfall and the fear of being seen made them decide otherwise, which is why they staged the garroting.

Such a scenario seems far more likely imo than having an 'intruder' walking around in that house full of people at Christmas, obviously without any fear of being seen, or claiming that Burke, a nine-year-old kid was engaged in EA games with JB as the willing participant.

BINGO! This has been my line of thinking lately. It makes sense.

 

[ellen13]

BINGO! This has been my line of thinking lately. It makes sense.

Okay, I thought that JR molested her also, but then I look back on Beth and Melinda and it sounds like he was totally appropriate and decent with them. You think he would have had some prior history. I guess it just surprises me that he would start with JBR. That's the only reason I didn't think he did, but you never know with the Rams!

 

[UKGuy]

And suppose Patsy caught John molesting JonBenet (which is a very likely possibility imo), is it that far a stretch to imagine that she could have snapped and lost it to the point of striking a violent blow to her head?
A blow so severe that she instantly realized the point of no return had been reached? JonBenet in a coma, possibly nearing death?
Patsy doesn't want to be exposed as her killer, and John doesn't want to be exposed as JB's chronic abuser. So they decide to cover up for each other.

And it is their common guilt which has tied them together up to the present day.
It has been brought up that they as parents would only have covered up for Burke, and that any other cover-up would not make any sense.
But how about covering up for each other? This would make sense too imo.
I suppose they initially wanted to dump the body somewhere, which is why they wrote the ransom note. Snowfall and the fear of being seen made them decide otherwise, which is why they staged the garroting.

Such a scenario seems far more likely imo than having an 'intruder' walking around in that house full of people at Christmas, obviously without any fear of being seen, or claiming that Burke, a nine-year-old kid was engaged in EA games with JB as the willing participant.

rashomon,

Why should Patsy cover up? An accident has occurred in this theory, why not tell the authorities like it is. They took JonBenet for medical treatment when Burke accidentally whacked her with a golf club. Patsy is not culpable, she may be responsible, but in a court of law she would probably face lower degree manslaughter charges. And JR would be sitting in jail on alleged molestation charges. Given they could be substantiated or he plea bargained, Patsy could sue his estate on behalf of JonBenet.

Whichever path they take, they still face the media and law enforcement. Patsy is guilt ridden, distraught, and beside herself for killing JonBenet, has also discovered her husband abused her beloved, treasured daughter, yet she camly puts it all aside and plans a cover up for his benefit, even assisting in some of the forensic evidence removal. If Patsy was uneducated, of low-intelligence, or whose social background had a documented history of domestic violence, then possibly there may be a case for presenting her as a dependent woman.

But she is not and was not, she is none of these things, so why stereotype her when we know her to be educated, intelligent, independent minded, capable of advancing her position, by all the usual social graces.

If Patsy killed JonBenet she may still yet make a death bed confession, but I doubt she will say 'It was an accident, I meant to hit John'


.

 

[trixie]

but you fail to acknowlege the legacy left behind for Burke and the others. If that is what happened the Ramseys would never live down the shame. All their friends, and family would know what had been going on in that house. The Ramseys were wealthy, well liked people with a stellar reputation and as much as some of us don't want to believe it, sometimes with some people their name and reputation is EVERYTHING to them. Even more important than the truth. Especially in the south, if you believe DOI.
I can also envision a scenario where Patsy and John realize Jonbenet is never going to be the same after the head injury. Can you see Patsy caring for a brain injured child the rest of her life? Do you think she could see herself dooing that? Maybe at some point Jonbenet ceased being the Jonbenet they knew and became a burden when faced with all the possibilities of what the future holds for a brain injured child. I am sorry, but yes, I DO think Patsy is shallow enough to only want the very best, the best children, I mean. The winners. I also think she is tough enough to do what had to be done at the time to save Jonbenet from a life of being a vegetable and to save herself from a life of caregiving. After all, she had herself and her own cancer to worry about, and IMO Patsy always took care of herself first.
I know this won't be a popular opinion but I think we have got to stop assuming everybody is like ourselves and that everybody would do what we would do. The Ramseys are not like US, people! And don't think like US! Not in a million years. So let's open up that Pandoras box and see what ugly truths really could be inside.

 

[trixie]

Okay, I thought that JR molested her also, but then I look back on Beth and Melinda and it sounds like he was totally appropriate and decent with them. You think he would have had some prior history. I guess it just surprises me that he would start with JBR. That's the only reason I didn't think he did, but you never know with the Rams!

I think when he had Beth and Melinda, who didn't live with him full time, he had other things going on in his life. And sometimes for whatever reason, the molester will only pick on one child.
Somebody posted some stats one time about how many first time child molesters start at around 50. I wish I could remember who posted that, and where. It was shocking. Remember David Westerfield?
I really hope this theory is wrong, because it makes me really sick to think about JR doing this to JBR. I really hope he didn't, but it sorta explains the evidence.

 

[narlacat]

but you fail to acknowlege the legacy left behind for Burke and the others. If that is what happened the Ramseys would never live down the shame. All their friends, and family would know what had been going on in that house. The Ramseys were wealthy, well liked people with a stellar reputation and as much as some of us don't want to believe it, sometimes with some people their name and reputation is EVERYTHING to them. Even more important than the truth. Especially in the south, if you believe DOI.
I can also envision a scenario where Patsy and John realize Jonbenet is never going to be the same after the head injury. Can you see Patsy caring for a brain injured child the rest of her life? Do you think she could see herself dooing that? Maybe at some point Jonbenet ceased being the Jonbenet they knew and became a burden when faced with all the possibilities of what the future holds for a brain injured child. I am sorry, but yes, I DO think Patsy is shallow enough to only want the very best, the best children, I mean. The winners. I also think she is tough enough to do what had to be done at the time to save Jonbenet from a life of being a vegetable and to save herself from a life of caregiving. After all, she had herself and her own cancer to worry about, and IMO Patsy always took care of herself first.
I know this won't be a popular opinion but I think we have got to stop assuming everybody is like ourselves and that everybody would do what we would do. The Ramseys are not like US, people! And don't think like US! Not in a million years. So let's open up that Pandoras box and see what ugly truths really could be inside.

Trixie
I agree with everything you said concerning how things are for the Ramsey's, well said too btw!
The Ramsey's did what they thought they had to do.
They felt they had no choice.

Some people would do ANYTHING to save face.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

It seems that Bobby Franks and JBR were both victims of sexual assault and brutal murder, while their parents were victims of extortion (kidnapping for ransom).

JBR could have been victimized more than Bobby Franks. The full extent of the attack on JBR is unknown, so its harder to characterize the murderer. Clearly the wording of the RN was more threatening and violent than Franks.

I'll bet the perp is an even more sociopathic personality than either Leopold or Loeb. I'm not sure any of the usual suspects qualify as even slightly sociopathic.

 

[narlacat]

>>It seems that Bobby Franks and JBR were both victims of sexual assault and brutal murder, while their parents were victims of extortion (kidnapping for ransom). <<

The Ramsey's are not the victims, as much as they would like us to believe that and they certainly were not victims of extortion (JMO)

 

[rashomon]

but you fail to acknowlege the legacy left behind for Burke and the others. If that is what happened the Ramseys would never live down the shame. All their friends, and family would know what had been going on in that house. The Ramseys were wealthy, well liked people with a stellar reputation and as much as some of us don't want to believe it, sometimes with some people their name and reputation is EVERYTHING to them. Even more important than the truth. Especially in the south, if you believe DOI.
I can also envision a scenario where Patsy and John realize Jonbenet is never going to be the same after the head injury. Can you see Patsy caring for a brain injured child the rest of her life? Do you think she could see herself dooing that? Maybe at some point Jonbenet ceased being the Jonbenet they knew and became a burden when faced with all the possibilities of what the future holds for a brain injured child. I am sorry, but yes, I DO think Patsy is shallow enough to only want the very best, the best children, I mean. The winners. I also think she is tough enough to do what had to be done at the time to save Jonbenet from a life of being a vegetable and to save herself from a life of caregiving. After all, she had herself and her own cancer to worry about, and IMO Patsy always took care of herself first.
I know this won't be a popular opinion but I think we have got to stop assuming everybody is like ourselves and that everybody would do what we would do. The Ramseys are not like US, people! And don't think like US! Not in a million years. So let's open up that Pandoras box and see what ugly truths really could be inside.

My thoughts exactly. Very well said, trixie.

 

[UKGuy]

but you fail to acknowlege the legacy left behind for Burke and the others. If that is what happened the Ramseys would never live down the shame. All their friends, and family would know what had been going on in that house. The Ramseys were wealthy, well liked people with a stellar reputation and as much as some of us don't want to believe it, sometimes with some people their name and reputation is EVERYTHING to them. Even more important than the truth. Especially in the south, if you believe DOI.
I can also envision a scenario where Patsy and John realize Jonbenet is never going to be the same after the head injury. Can you see Patsy caring for a brain injured child the rest of her life? Do you think she could see herself dooing that? Maybe at some point Jonbenet ceased being the Jonbenet they knew and became a burden when faced with all the possibilities of what the future holds for a brain injured child. I am sorry, but yes, I DO think Patsy is shallow enough to only want the very best, the best children, I mean. The winners. I also think she is tough enough to do what had to be done at the time to save Jonbenet from a life of being a vegetable and to save herself from a life of caregiving. After all, she had herself and her own cancer to worry about, and IMO Patsy always took care of herself first.
I know this won't be a popular opinion but I think we have got to stop assuming everybody is like ourselves and that everybody would do what we would do. The Ramseys are not like US, people! And don't think like US! Not in a million years. So let's open up that Pandoras box and see what ugly truths really could be inside.

trixie,

But all their friends are going to know anyway, we have the corpse of a 6-year old girl, she did not accidentally fall out of bed, and whack her head on the floor, thus requiring her human diginity to be ignored, because John and Patsy stood there wailing, gnashing teeth, hands on brow, cheeks red in anticipation of the social disgrace that would be visited upon Burke, which has been anyway, along with comments on his dress code.

Consider the percentages if you are Patsy, how do you know if the staging and coverup will succeed, does she have prior experience to fall back on, why does she think taking a chance with portraying JonBenet's death as the result of a sadistic, violent pedophile, is better than that of telling it like it is e.g. an accident?

Either way social disgrace is their reward, why make matters worse, if its simply an accident, then tell it like it is, that route has no risks, no percentages to calculate, no forensic evidence to remove, no body to relocate. Or do you think Patsy calculated if it all unravelled she would put her hands up, and say it was John!, it was John! he was molesting JonBenet, he is a monster, he made me go along with his coverup?

Armed with information and opinions that have arisen regarding the Ramsey's after the death of JonBenet, its a no-brainer to cite these as reasons why some things should be so, but those are ad-hominem arguments, and on that basis, vast numbers of the american middle classes, even corporate levels would find themselves arraigned in court because they aspired but had extra-marital affairs, cooked the books, setup dodgy companies to funnel political funds, or like Enron itemised liabilities as capital, etc etc.


Its not that its not a popular opinion, it also does not square with the forensic evidence, and guess what, contrary to your argument JonBenet's homicide ranks as one of the most famous in history, the publicity generated exceeds that of any domestic accidental homicide!

 

[aussiesheila]

It's statements like above that put me back on the fence with John and Patsy.

I can accept an answer of "I don't recall getting any hang up calls prior to Christmas."

But, "We may have." I don't remember."

That to me is unexcusable. Either they had hang up calls or they didn't.If it means maybe having some kind of heads up to the death of my daughter,I sure as hell would make myself remember.

These are things that make me feel that there is something amiss.They know something.

Didn't Patsy's sister say on a talk show (I believe),that Patsy knows who the killer is?

What the heck is going on?

Please note Capps, that it was PATSY (and NOT John) who said "We may have." I don't remember."

SHE is the one who knows something, IMO.

And if Patsy's sister DID say (I'm not sure about this) on a talk show, that Patsy knows who the killer is, then I think the sister probably knew about the pedophile group that was abusing JonBenet prior to and right up to her death, and knew that Patsy knew about it also, IMO