Where and when?

[UKGuy]

So do you think someone else became angry, possibly observing the sex play, and dealt the head-bash?

Chelly,
I think the head bash might be failed staging, either by BR or another R? In sexual assaults some kind of restraining injury usually precedes the sexual assault, here we have the opposite and with a victim whose profile does not mandate physical restraint.

So an explanation is needed to fit the head-bash into a theory that makes some sense. Currently, for me, the head-bash represents a staged event.


.

 

[Chelly]

Chelly,
I think the head bash might be failed staging, either by BR or another R? In sexual assaults some kind of restraining injury usually precedes the sexual assault, here we have the opposite and with a victim whose profile does not mandate physical restraint.

So an explanation is needed to fit the head-bash into a theory that makes some sense. Currently, for me, the head-bash represents a staged event.


.

UKGuy:

If the head-bash is staged.
What about the strangulation? Did it happen before the H.B.?
Did the JB 's killer intend to murder her?

 

[UKGuy]

UKGuy:
You are straining my brain.
And the strangulation?

Chelly,
Straining the brain always helps to elucidate a neat theory. The strangulation came after the failed head-bash, and might have been intended as replacement staging for the head-bash?

I reckon the case is pretty straight forward, with JonBenet being sexually assaulted upstairs and most of the evidence moved downstairs, where another staging takes place in an attempt to explain away this forensic evidence.

Its really a case of multiple staging where some consider some of the staging to be bona fide evidence of some factual crime.


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[Chelly]

Chelly,
Yes I do. In my BDI BR sexually assaults JonBenet playing doctor or whatever they got up to. This goes wrong due to BR's insensitivity and his age leading to JonBenet becoming unconcious, followed by a staging as he attempts to clean up the mess in the bedroom, but leaves his pajama bottoms behind.

I did speculate that BR anally assaulted JonBenet leading to the forensic evidence partially described by Kolar, as well as vaginally assaulting her?

For explanatory purposes I partition the crime-scene in two, i.e. an Upstairs Arena and a Downstairs Arena, the latter is where the staging takes place, and the former is where the sexual assault takes place.

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UKGuy:
How did JB become unconscious?

 

[BOESP]

I'm glad to hear that Grand Juries should be suspect but television programs should be a learning tool. :doh:

 

[UKGuy]

UKGuy:
How did JB become unconscious?

Chelly,
After BR assaulted JonBenet both anally and vaginally, JonBenet attempted to escape or shout out, this led to BR restraining her by the neck, resulting in her becoming unconcious, explaining the marks at the side of her windpipe. This might be the carotid arteries becoming blocked or her windpipe being compressed?


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[BOESP]

Chelly,
Possibly or he was not responsible for any head-bash?

Pardon me for butting in, but that's something I can agree with. I think Patsy likely caused the head trauma but I can see that something involving Burke precipitated this entire child abuse event resulting in the death of JonBenet.

 

[Chelly]

I see the head bash a means of silencing JB during /after the sex play gone wrong.
I can't see how the H.B. was staging.
The ligature was staging to cover the H.B.
The final vaginal assault was cover for the ongoing sexual encounters.

 

[Chelly]

Pardon me for butting in, but that's something I can agree with. I think Patsy likely caused the head trauma but I can see that something involving Burke precipitated this entire child abuse event resulting in the death of JonBenet.

You are pardoned. Butt in anytime:floorlaugh:
Can't speak for UKG though

 

[Chelly]

Chelly,
After BR assaulted JonBenet both anally and vaginally, JonBenet attempted to escape or shout out, this led to BR restraining her by the neck, resulting in her becoming unconcious, explaining the marks at the side of her windpipe. This might be the carotid arteries becoming blocked or her windpipe being compressed?


.

OK. That works. The rest follows. Thanks.
Whew! I need a nap.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

Quite a story there.. Would be great if there was actual proof of it.

 

[UKGuy]

Pardon me for butting in, but that's something I can agree with. I think Patsy likely caused the head trauma but I can see that something involving Burke precipitated this entire child abuse event resulting in the death of JonBenet.

BOESP,
ITA. Either PR or JR, uncertain about who. Yet I think the theory is consistent and explains most of the forensic evidence including the feacies in JonBenet's bedroom?

I reckon what we describe as Playing Doctors might have been more complex and involved than we think?



.

 

[UKGuy]

I see the head bash a means of silencing JB during /after the sex play gone wrong.
I can't see how the H.B. was staging.
The ligature was staging to cover the H.B.
The final vaginal assault was cover for the ongoing sexual encounters.

Chelly,
Thats because it failed. Not even the R's considered it staging fit for purpose. Postmortem everyone else then allocates the head-bash as happening as a consequence of some altercation between JonBenet and any one of PR, JR or BR?

The ligature was staging to cover the H.B.

The head-bash was invisible and required no staging, the R's did not know what damage there was. It was not until the postmortem that the extent of JonBenet's head injuries became apparent.

The ligature strangulation was intended to do what the head-bash failed to do, i.e. kill JonBenet, silencing her and masking the marks at the side of her windpipe.

The final vaginal assault was cover for the ongoing sexual encounters.

ITA, Kolar alludes to this in one of his interviews when referencing the paintbrush handle.


.

 

[BOESP]

I see the head bash a means of silencing JB during /after the sex play gone wrong.
I can't see how the H.B. was staging.
The ligature was staging to cover the H.B.
The final vaginal assault was cover for the ongoing sexual encounters.

At one time I thought the same thing but I now think the vaginal assault and clean-up was a part of the "corporal cleansing" theory presented by Steve Thomas.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

Sure. ST and his corporal cleaning...

And what proof did he have of that?

 

[Chelly]

Chelly,
After BR assaulted JonBenet both anally and vaginally, JonBenet attempted to escape or shout out, this led to BR restraining her by the neck, resulting in her becoming unconcious, explaining the marks at the side of her windpipe. This might be the carotid arteries becoming blocked or her windpipe being compressed?


.

UKGuy, OK, JB was unconscious as a result of BR restraining her by the neck, but not strangling her. And, despite attempts by PR or JR or both, JB could NOT be revived? That's some deep unconscious.

Then, why bother with the head blow as staging when they could have just gone directly to strangulation which would serve the purpose of covering up the neck-squeeze, hurrying her along to death and help support the intruder theory?

You must think BR not strong enough to deliver the head blow that cracked JB's skull but the neck restraint makes sense in terms of shutting her up and stopping her escape to tell on him.

 

[Charterhouse]

With re to the pineapple. There's been quite a bit of discussion about pineapple moving through the system faster due to the high water content. Also posters having tests to determine digestive problems which showed food/liquid reaching the same point in the digestive tract in 23 min IIRC.

IMO, we can't really know for sure how long before death the pineapple was eaten. I think 2 hrs is just an estimate.

I am sure this has been mentioned before and I hope the medical examiner took this into consideration that Pineapple contains a digestive enzyme called Bromelain. It is often used to digest protein.

It also has effects outside of the digestive tract and can cause uterine bleeding or just an increase in bleeding. It also is said to have anti inflammatory effects, reduce swelling and bruising. (?)

I don't think JB ate enough to cause any of the other effects but I do wonder if pineapple alone could speed up digestion in general. I have never found the answer to that. It does speed up the digestion of protein.

If that is the case, could the TOD have been sooner because of eating the pineapple, if you are estimating the TOD on when the pineapple was eaten?

Just another thing to throw out there. I take Bromelain capsules to help with digestion of protein and it does work.

 

[Chelly]

At one time I thought the same thing but I now think the vaginal assault and clean-up was a part of the "corporal cleansing" theory presented by Steve Thomas.

With rational discussion, we tend to change our theories over time.

When JB was killed, I was working for a large newspaper in the east. Not long after the murder, IDI was being discussed around our newsroom. One of our editors piped up and said in so many words: "JB was a constant bed-wetter and it drove her mother crazy. JB wet the bed Christmas night. The mother was exhausted, snapped, went into a rage and slammed JB in the head knocking her out. The child could not be revived; the mother had to kill her so as not to be charged with child abuse." We all sat there with our mouths hanging open. It was incredible speculation but it became the popular theory at that time.

Over the years we would speculate about this astounding murder. My media colleagues didn't think IDI credible, but we remained open-minded and changed our theories constantly. Most popular was PDI, followed by JDI. I don't recall any discussion during the 90's to early 00's of BR, but as time went by BDI made sense to some of us. Just when I'm convinced I've got it, a detail I've overlooked changes my mind yet again.

 

[Nom de plume]

Once out there it is open to scrutiny.

I see occams razor thrown out there all the time. This is an appropriate place.

Sorting through you have to be able to discount the easiest most obvious scenario first, The one that makes sense on the most basic level.

How one can jump straight to a 9 yr old being involved in the murder of his sister, without proof bothers me greatly.

When I watch cold cases get solved, They start with the obvious and remove them one by one. The issue is that that DNA can have absolutely innocent origins, and there is no proof otherwise because he belongs there.

The other 6 profiles do not. That is where I think there is something to be had.

When I watch cold cases get solved, They start with the obvious and remove them one by one.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

When I watch cold cases get solved, They start with the obvious and remove them one by one.

I watched the other day as a cold case started with both options.. A list for both. The job is to remove or add until they get to an empty column and a full one.

But you start with both options to find the truth.

That is how I figure this case out..