Who Killed Jon Benet Ramsey? Poll

[andreww]

I'm new to websleuths, but wanted to engage in some thoughts/theories based on what I've read. I welcome any reply

First and foremost, its clear there was no intruder; all fingers point at the Ramsey's as being involved

Based off what I've read thus far, this is what makes the most sense, in my opinion

1. They said its very likely the letter was written prior to the murder
2. Patsy made the 911 call, which suggests that she had no knowledge of the murder
3. Its likely John killed JonBenet

Here's why others (and myself) believe John killed his daughter. First and foremost, the act of garroting is brutal...and others, as well as myself, believe that no mother, no matter how insane, would resort to that method. Is it possible? Of course. Likely? No.

Why would Patsy use her own items around the house?

The letter suggests many, many things...and while it does look like Patsy's writing, it also makes references to technical words. This makes sense as John's career was that of a technical sense

Why would Patsy call 911? It would make sense that she'd call if she didn't know anything the murder

Conflict: The letter states her daughter would be killed if anyone was contacted. Why call if she was risking her daughter's life? (whether she was involved or not, it makes no sense)

It would make sense IF something about the plan were awry. Suppose for example Patsy was involved, and the plan was to rid the body but something happened. By calling, she is therefore just got her daughter killed. Therefore, that explains the body in the basement. Of course, it wouldn't be a kidnapping at that point, but a murder with an oddly out of place ransom note

What the plan COULD have been was to wake in the morning, load and dump the body. They could then claim they didn't call the cops out of fear for their daughter's safety (initially). After they dumped the body, they could call the cops, tell them their daughter is missing and they found a ransom note. Their alibi could be something to the effect of, we withdrew the money. But then, by calling the cops after withdrawing the money, JonBenet is killed. But maybe they decided it would be a bad idea to be out and about with their daughter's body in the car, and instead risked calling 911

My big question though, is why were the Ramsey's apologized to? Why were they removed as suspects in the case when it seems clear as day they were involved?

Im not trying to be rude but your post is so full of wrong that I don't even know where to begin.

They said its very likely the letter was written prior to the murder

That would suggest premeditation, and I don't think anybody has ever said that. What you have heard likely came from one of the IDI theorists who never really felt the need to follow evidence because they were dealing in a world of make believe.

Patsy made the 911 call, which suggests that she had no knowledge of the murder

Patsy made the 911 call because she was a better actor. Someone needed to sound hysterical and Patsy was simply the best person for the job.

Its likely John killed JonBenet

Quite the opposite, its unlikely John killed her. He's the least likely of the three in the house anyway.

Here's why others (and myself) believe John killed his daughter. First and foremost, the act of garroting is brutal...and others, as well as myself, believe that no mother, no matter how insane, would resort to that method. Is it possible? Of course. Likely? No.

That is why you aren't a detective. You cannot let your emotions dictate what could or couldn't have happened. Monsters come in all shapes and sizes, mothers, fathers, brothers and sisters. It happens every single day and if you do some minimal searching you'll find plenty of examples.

Why would Patsy use her own items around the house?

Why wouldn't she? She wasn't out to frame John or Burke, so using her own stuff makes the most sense.

The letter suggests many, many things...and while it does look like Patsy's writing, it also makes references to technical words. This makes sense as John's career was that of a technical sense

Not sure which words are technical but in my opinion the note sounds more like someone that watched a lot of movies.

Why would Patsy call 911? It would make sense that she'd call if she didn't know anything the murder

Conflict: The letter states her daughter would be killed if anyone was contacted. Why call if she was risking her daughter's life? (whether she was involved or not, it makes no sense)

Well thats simple isn't it? Patsy knew Jonbenet was dead long before the 911 call. Why worry about threats?

It would make sense IF something about the plan were awry. Suppose for example Patsy was involved, and the plan was to rid the body but something happened. By calling, she is therefore just got her daughter killed. Therefore, that explains the body in the basement. Of course, it wouldn't be a kidnapping at that point, but a murder with an oddly out of place ransom note

You are suggesting that an intruder was still in the basement while the Ramseys made the 911 call? Consider this, the blow to the head happened anywhere between 40 minutes and 2 hours before she was strangled. Think about how that effects the scenario you just suggested. Pretty absurd right?

What the plan COULD have been was to wake in the morning, load and dump the body. They could then claim they didn't call the cops out of fear for their daughter's safety (initially). After they dumped the body, they could call the cops, tell them their daughter is missing and they found a ransom note. Their alibi could be something to the effect of, we withdrew the money. But then, by calling the cops after withdrawing the money, JonBenet is killed. But maybe they decided it would be a bad idea to be out and about with their daughter's body in the car, and instead risked calling 911

Been discussed many times. The second that you try to move the body, you open yourself to so much risk. The Ramsey's alibi was that the slept all night. If one person see's them leaving, they're dead. If one security Camera snaps their car, they're dead. If one tire track is found at the dumping site, they're dead. If one piece of Ramsey DNA is found at the dump site, they're dead. If JB drips a spot of blood in the car, they're dead. You starting to get the picture? Minimize the crime scene to a small area within your home. The Ramseys really didn't have to worry about fingerprints and DNA did they? It was their house, those things are explainable.

My big question though, is why were the Ramsey's apologized to? Why were they removed as suspects in the case when it seems clear as day they were involved?

The Ramsey's were apologized to by then Boulder District Attorney Mary Lacy. Her statements were certainly not that of the Boulder Police Department, in fact quite the opposite. Like her predecessor Alex Hunter, she seemed to have very little motivation to solve this case, but did seem very eager to close it. Ask yourself why every single LE person that worked on this case believed that the Ramseys were responsible, but both District Attorneys were adamant that this was then work of an intruder? Ask yourself why Alex Hunter told his men to "go easy" on the Ramseys? Ask yourself why he refused to sign warrants for things like phone records or medical records? Ask yourself why Mary Lacy sent men half way around the world to arrest John Mark Karr when her own guys knew he wasn't the guy? And ask yourself why Alex Hunter lied to the public about the Grand Jury's findings in this case?

I'll go so far as to say that the reason nobody was ever brought to trial for this murder was that Alex Hunter purposely sabotaged the case.

 

[MURDERER_SERVANT]

Here's a very simple way of thinking starting from the end:

who changed JB's panties ?

1-BR: He might have partially opened the gifts in the basement and could be aware of the panties there. Being a child he might have thought that he could simply hide the assault and the bloodied scene by wiping and with a pair of clean panties handy .But then he wouldn't be careful enough to choose the Wednesday pair .
2- Intruder : No probable reason to think an intruder to change JBR 's wednesday panties.
3-JR : He couldn't know that the size 12 panties were in the basement. If he had gone upstairs , he more likely would take any size 6 from the drawer.
4-PR: She knew that the size 12 were in the basement.She might have calculated that sb could have noticed the Wednesday pair on JB at the White's.

Then for whom P would try to cover up the previous traces of sexual assault with the paintbrush?

1-If the assaulter was B , JR would be way earlier informed abt the situation that night and they wouldn't come up with that ridiculous ransom note. My vote P alone wrote it and it was too late for JR to rewrite.
2- If the assaulter was J , I don't see it probable for a woman to cover it for her husband.
3-A third person well known to P or somebody from that pageant stuf..
Somebody who got a chance to be alone with JBR for a short while and assaulted her and her hymen was torn or partially torn..and Patsy discovered it or JBR told her.

I'm thinking that J would be mad at P if he ever learned that.. He proabably didn't like P and her family's pageant love .. all that makeup and sexy clothing for a child seems too much for a father ..but he let it go.. Then a kind of accidental killing , it was the end , inevitable for the whole world abt the child queen's torn hymen after an autopsy
.J could forgive her for an accident but how could she expain the assault? Who would be the most probable assaulters if not an intruder ..

Then she panicked and used the paintbrush, actually orchestrated the whole night, wrote the RN, staged the scene a bit throwing JA under the bus putting the luggage under the window , she made the 911 call and called the friends.

JR probably only knew the accident part and woke up just before the 911 call..

 

[eric_none1]

I don't see the need for unnecessary attitude in the replies. I will say that some of what has been stated/corrected have given me something to think about. I was 6 years old when this happened and only recently have begun to look into further. I think its an absolute shame that no one was ever arrested or charged. I hope I live to see the day that someone utters something even close to a confession

 

[andreww]

I don't see the need for unnecessary attitude in the replies. I will say that some of what has been stated/corrected have given me something to think about. I was 6 years old when this happened and only recently have begun to look into further. I think its an absolute shame that no one was ever arrested or charged. I hope I live to see the day that someone utters something even close to a confession

The motivation behind most confessions is guilt. The fact that we have never seen anything resembling guilt coming from any of the Ramseys in the past 20 years leads me to believe that you'll be waiting a very long time for that confession.


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[TeaTime]

All little children 'flirt', at least that is what we call it. Maybe it is a southern thing, I don't know. We sometimes call it 'making sweet eyes' or 'googly eyes' and they dance, prance, twirl, giggle - whatever, enjoying the attention. It is normal. So for Archuletta to say that JBR was flirting doesn't bother me at all.

 

[Dynamic88]

Im not trying to be rude but your post is so full of wrong that I don't even know where to begin.

Not really. Just a few items.

That would suggest premeditation, and I don't think anybody has ever said that. What you have heard likely came from one of the IDI theorists who never really felt the need to follow evidence because they were dealing in a world of make believe.

The length of the RN leads some to speculate it may have been written ahead of time. I don't think so, but you have to admit it's not a bad thought.

Patsy made the 911 call because she was a better actor. Someone needed to sound hysterical and Patsy was simply the best person for the job.

That's not a fact. It's pure speculation on your part. You don't know if Patsy was acting or not.

Quite the opposite, its unlikely John killed her. He's the least likely of the three in the house anyway.

Well actually BR is by far the least likely of the 3. JR is at least as likely as PR.

That is why you aren't a detective. You cannot let your emotions dictate what could or couldn't have happened. Monsters come in all shapes and sizes, mothers, fathers, brothers and sisters. It happens every single day and if you do some minimal searching you'll find plenty of examples.

I have to agree here. No reason a mother couldn't have done this.

Why wouldn't she? She wasn't out to frame John or Burke, so using her own stuff makes the most sense.

Anyone in the house could have used any items so I don't see much sense making too much of who's stuff was used.

Well thats simple isn't it? Patsy knew Jonbenet was dead long before the 911 call. Why worry about threats?

If Patsy went to the trouble of writing multiple threats in the RN then surely she would have acted as if she believed them. Instead she behaves as if she wasn't even really aware of the threats, or if she was she dismissed them as fake. If she had written the lines about surveillance and countermeasures then surely she'd have warned the police to arrive on the QT.

You are suggesting that an intruder was still in the basement while the Ramseys made the 911 call? Consider this, the blow to the head happened anywhere between 40 minutes and 2 hours before she was strangled. Think about how that effects the scenario you just suggested. Pretty absurd right?

I have to agree. The idea that he/she/they expected the police to believe the killer was still in the basement during the 911 call is nonsensical.

Been discussed many times. The second that you try to move the body, you open yourself to so much risk. The Ramsey's alibi was that the slept all night. If one person see's them leaving, they're dead. If one security Camera snaps their car, they're dead. If one tire track is found at the dumping site, they're dead. If one piece of Ramsey DNA is found at the dump site, they're dead. If JB drips a spot of blood in the car, they're dead. You starting to get the picture? Minimize the crime scene to a small area within your home. The Ramseys really didn't have to worry about fingerprints and DNA did they? It was their house, those things are explainable.

Yes, there are many reasons why he/she/they may have decided against trying to dump the body somewhere. But, the body is not staged in accordance with a "kidnapping gone wrong". So if the decision was made to present the police with a kidnapping gone wrong why doesn't the body conform to this scenario? One very sensible thought is that Patsy didn't know about the body in the basement when she made the call. IOWs, if both JR and PR were in on the murder/staging, then why wouldn't they modify the staging consistent with their plan B? (Plan A being to dump the body, a plan apparently rejected)

 

[TexasTuff]

The motivation behind most confessions is guilt. The fact that we have never seen anything resembling guilt coming from any of the Ramseys in the past 20 years leads me to believe that you'll be waiting a very long time for that confession.


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Hello Andrew, It's been a while since I've been here but I thought everyone would find this interesting. It's an interview Howard Stern did with a criminal profiler that worked on the JB case back in the 90's. What he says about JB isn't long but it is interesting.

[video=youtube;8y_MF9jtRSw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8y_MF9jtRSw[/video]

 

[andreww]

Yes, there are many reasons why he/she/they may have decided against trying to dump the body somewhere. But, the body is not staged in accordance with a "kidnapping gone wrong". So if the decision was made to present the police with a kidnapping gone wrong why doesn't the body conform to this scenario? One very sensible thought is that Patsy didn't know about the body in the basement when she made the call. IOWs, if both JR and PR were in on the murder/staging, then why wouldn't they modify the staging consistent with their plan B? (Plan A being to dump the body, a plan apparently rejected)

Not sure what kind of staging would show a "kidnapping gone bad"? A six year old is an easy target and should have been easy to remove from the house. If you consider Patsy's flair for being over dramatic, the scene is just about perfect. Patsy's intruder is not just a kidnapper, he's a kidnapper with a background in foreign espionage, who also is a pedophilic sexual sadist. During the kidnapping the perp was so overcome with JBs beauty that he could not suppress his urges long enough to get her out of the house. Sexual pleasure isn't enough for him and he feels the need to strangle her during his sex play, then finishing her off with a blow to the head when he's done. I gather that was the gist of the staging, but it's all Patsy in my opinion.

Again, back to the biggest clue that John wasn't involved; he was aware of the importance of a point of entry, so much so that he admitted the first thing he did was check all the doors. If he was in on this crime, why would he initially swear that the house was secure? It makes absolutely no sense. He even tells Fleet that he was the one that broke the window!

Johns early behaviour and the scatterbrained staging tells me this wasn't the work of a logical minded, billion dollar executive.


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[andreww]

The length of the RN leads some to speculate it may have been written ahead of time. I don't think so, but you have to admit it's not a bad thought.

When the FBI looked at the note, they knew JB was already dead. That would suggest that it was written after the fact.

That's not a fact. It's pure speculation on your part. You don't know if Patsy was acting or not.

Not speculation at all. I'll put aside all the verbiage that she uses in the call that is evidence of her acting. Patsy wrote the ransom note, therefore she is acting during the 911 call.

Well actually BR is by far the least likely of the 3. JR is at least as likely as PR.

Patsy's fingerprints were on the pineapple bowl. Patsy sweater fibres were in the paint tote and on the body. Patsy wrote the ransom note.

Burke's fingerprints are on the tea glass next to the pineapple. His DNA is on the bloody nightgown and his boot print is at the crime scene.

As far as I know there were some black fibres that were similar to those from Johns shirt, found on the body. Thats it.

Steve Thomas gave John a pass and Kolar doesn't mention him as a key player in his scenario either.

If Patsy went to the trouble of writing multiple threats in the RN then surely she would have acted as if she believed them. Instead she behaves as if she wasn't even really aware of the threats, or if she was she dismissed them as fake. If she had written the lines about surveillance and countermeasures then surely she'd have warned the police to arrive on the QT.

The Ramseys disregarded the note completely. The 10:00 AM deadline came and went without notice. The threats in the note were ignored. Why? Because the police were in the house and the Ramseys were being treated as victims. Mission accomplished.

 

[Juniorsleuther]

My theory is this was all Patsy doing !! They lived in the house burks boot print could have been there from a previous time, also it was stated that this particular boot was also worn by police correct me if I am wrong! So this could explain the prints left behind also, Christmas Eve it was stated that jonbenet slept in burks room so they could wake together, could jonbenet have been wearing this particular nightgown Christmas Eve thus having the touch dna from Burke on the nighty? I truly feel IMO that Patsy either premeditated the murder of her daughter in phycosis, or in phycosis killed jonbenet! I think PR was mentally ill with a variation of mental illnesses sociopathic, possibly narciistic, complicated with histrionic personality disorder. These people can function in society, her need to look like such a rich dignified Christian up standing citizen( narcissistic) this woman had help for everything if someone (from what I've read about Patsy)didnt clean neither did Patsy! She was known has a messy house keeper! What I am getting at is she is truly a fake superficial woman. What I have read from multiple sources is that when Patsy first moved to Boulder she would drop friends like hot potatoes with no explanation on to why. More rich friends, more renowned friends every time. If I were to speculate Patsy was a functioning sociopath, and her children truly took the bunt of it. JR was hardly around taking trips, having meetings. There was a statement please correct me if I am wrong but jonbenet had mentioned it to the handy man ? That she missed her father and wished he was around more ? If true this totally explains to me that her father although absent a lot was important to jonbenet! I think Patsy was particularly irrelevant to JBR . I don't think Patsy was okay with the fact as jonbenet grew older started to withdrawal from her mothers grasp! Did u all happen to notice the last picture of Patsy and jonbenet on Christmas. How tight Patsy is holding jonbenet ? And the look in Patsy eyes in very concerning to me!

 

[otg]

Hello Andrew, It's been a while since I've been here but I thought everyone would find this interesting. It's an interview Howard Stern did with a criminal profiler that worked on the JB case back in the 90's. What he says about JB isn't long but it is interesting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8y_MF9jtRSw

The criminal profiler in this interview (Dale Yeager) was discussed and looked at pretty closely at FFJ around the time he did the interview. You may find the thread interesting:

http://www.forumsforjustice.org/for...-was-quot-losing-control-of-her-daughter-quot

 

[BoldBear]

Hello Andrew, It's been a while since I've been here but I thought everyone would find this interesting. It's an interview Howard Stern did with a criminal profiler that worked on the JB case back in the 90's. What he says about JB isn't long but it is interesting.

I question this guy as a good source. He does what he thinks are clever readings of the people around Howard Stern's office. Honestly, his observations seem to be more rooted in dime store detective novels. Have you seen any investigator state who he thought did it, but "well, I can't go into details?" "But I've had access to all of the confidential investigation files so trust me." Regarding security, "I always keep my hands up by my chest," but how many times have you seen security take this stance? It's telegraphing and would identify the security personnel instantly. They might as well be wearing big jackets with yellow letters: 'Security'. I wrote the third question, the one that got Patsy to throw the chair. Really? Wouldn't taking credit for something like that be considered unprofessional? If you use condoms, you're afraid of intimacy. All women want children unless they grew up in a dysfunctional family. "Trust me I know. Trust me I know. Trust me I know."

This guy wants to be in the limelight. He may well have the qualifications he says he has, but he's prone to exaggeration if not flat-out lying.

This is all my opinion, of course.

 

[Ithink]

Below is an excerpt from the June 1998 BP interview with PR. Did she admit here that she heard JBR scream? Was that a slip when she called it a "flashback"?

Credit to acandyrose for the transcript.

http://www.acandyrose.com/1998BPD-Patsy-Interview-Complete.htm

12 TOM HANEY: Okay. Do your symptoms include
13 anything like nightmares?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: I had those.
15 TOM HANEY: About?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh, I have flashbacks of
17 seeing my daughter lying down on the floor in our
18 living room, and I have flashbacks of hearing JonBenet
19 scream. I have nightmares where I am, you know,
20 searching, searching, searching trying to find
21 somebody, and trying to find who did this.
22 TOM HANEY: Is there something that brings
23 these on?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: No, not necessarily.

 

[BoldBear]

Dreaming, having nightmares and even expecting to see someone around the corner after they are gone is normal. None of this is an admission. It's the hell that someone goes through when dealing with the loss of a child. Patsy also cried that she couldn't hear JB on the night that this happened.

Melody Staton, the neighbor across the street, didn't want to become involved. She then said she heard a scream but originally didn't want to become involved, and finally said it may have been "negative energy radiating from JonBenét." Steve Thomas wasn't allowed to approach her again and pin her story down.

There may or may not have been a scream. As I recall, John and Patsy slept with their windows cracked open even in the middle of winter. *sigh*

 

[Ellie9]

She used the word flashback for the scream, and she later used the word nightmare to describe another thing. Flashback was first uesd appropriately to describe a scene we know she did witness - JBR's body on the living room floor, after JR carried her upstairs and then LA moving her again. But she also used flashback to describe the scream. So in this case Ithink has a point! She's not using it to mean nightmare since she then goes on right after to describe a nightmare.

I think it's actually possible this is another area where she slipped up. It's very possible Patsy witnessed or heard her scream at some point before (or immediately after??) the blunt object was used on her head.

It might be that someone would lose consciousness after a blunt object strike of that magnitude. Could be true. But some people lose consciousness after a few seconds. I had a friend who was hit in the head pretty hard (not as hard as JBR though) and he was up and went to sit down and care for the head injury, and about 30 seconds later he lost consciousness. It was almost like a delayed reaction. IMO (not a doctor!) it's possible JBR could have screamed from the blunt object strike immediately before she lost consciousness. I sure hope, for her sake, she lost consciousness much sooner than 30 seconds.

 

[SapphireSteel]

You cannot have a Flashback of something you didn't experience.

Oopsie Patsy....OOOOPS

 

[Tadpole12]

The criminal profiler in this interview (Dale Yeager) was discussed and looked at pretty closely at FFJ around the time he did the interview. You may find the thread interesting:

http://www.forumsforjustice.org/for...-was-quot-losing-control-of-her-daughter-quot

ty otg.

DY @2:50
[video=youtube;IjLR0rW8r-s]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjLR0rW8r-s&feature=related[/video]

 

[Annapurna]

That guy is full of it. He is clearly just vying for attention.

 

[otg]

(snipped for relevance)

It might be that someone would lose consciousness after a blunt object strike of that magnitude. Could be true. But some people lose consciousness after a few seconds. I had a friend who was hit in the head pretty hard (not as hard as JBR though) and he was up and went to sit down and care for the head injury, and about 30 seconds later he lost consciousness. It was almost like a delayed reaction. IMO (not a doctor!) it's possible JBR could have screamed from the blunt object strike immediately before she lost consciousness. I sure hope, for her sake, she lost consciousness much sooner than 30 seconds.

It’s very common for a person to suffer a TBI (Traumatic Brain Injury) yet not lose consciousness, or to lose it for a short time period and then come back with no apparent permanent injury. This can be catastrophically misleading -- especially if the TBI results in an epidural hematoma (blood buildup between the dura mater and the skull). In up to half of such injuries, there is a period called the “lucid interval” in which the victim has no apparent sign of injury. Later that same person might have symptoms and die.

There are several such cases of epidural hematoma lucid intervals associated with well-known people:

• Natasha Richardson (wife of Liam Neeson and daughter of Vanessa Redgrave)
• Gary Coleman (actor best known from “Diff’rent Strokes”)
• Dr. Robert Atkins (creator of the Atkins diet)

 

[BOESP]

(snipped for relevance)

There are several such cases of epidural hematoma lucid intervals associated with well-known people:

• Natasha Richardson (wife of Liam Neeson and daughter of Vanessa Redgrave)
• Gary Coleman (actor best known from “Diff’rent Strokes&#8221
• Dr. Robert Atkins (creator of the Atkins diet)

otg weren't the above examples victims of falling or being propelled into a stationary object rather than being a stationary victim who is hit with a moving object?

(I know ... I'm a broken record. )