Who Killed Jon Benet Ramsey? Poll

[UKGuy]

Fleet White knew from the wine cellar discovery onwards that the parents were involved, FW probably suspected JDI, only later to realize he had been used, and it was really BDI?

.

 

[singularity]

You know, before this conversation I never gave much thought to JAR, but I do find it very odd many of his items were discarded (and others Patsy claimed she couldn't recognize in pictures)

Since her murder....I always considered JAR a major factor in her life even back when I straddled the fence and would lean more towards IDI....even to the point IF it was IDI, the dots would somehow connect back to him. I am now firmly entrenched in RDI and I don't care if JAR was spotted on Mars the night of the 25th/26th, the crime scene points to people in the house(even IF an intruder(s)) focusing on his area of the house, and items from his room wound up down there. You also pointed out how when Patsy is being asked questions about JAR's area of the house, she does not handle the exchange very well. They should have kept on her. There are strange items in his room and the descriptions of these items leave a lot to the imagination. I think there are redactions in these exchanges. They also gloss over several photos taken of his room which is interesting since they'd sit there with Patsy discussing irrelevant photos they've already went over before and know she isn't changing her story yet skip these. Why? What is in them? There were bottles of cleaning fluid in his room and objects with very brief descriptions.

---

PATSY RAMSEY: That looks like a drawer. That is the drawer in the guest -- in John Andrew's
room.

TRIP DEMUTH: What is the red and black item?

PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know. I can't tell. I don't know.

TOM HANEY: Go ahead.

PATSY RAMSEY: I was going to say, do you have a picture of it blown up?

TOM HANEY: No, we don't.

PATSY RAMSEY: Okay.

TOM HANEY: Can you tell us, identify the other items that are in there.

PATSY RAMSEY: I can't. This (inaudible). John Andrew did (inaudible), that he would hang up.
Looks like just clothes in there. Can't tell.

TOM HANEY: Okay. How about 280, and we can probably skip that one quickly.

PATSY RAMSEY: No. I don't know what that is.

TOM HANEY: Is that the next sequence. Yeah. Some of these are going to be gone over quickly, and we will skip over to 281. There is none. So we go to 282, which is a photo 283.

PATSY RAMSEY: That is a drawer with some markers in it. I don't know what drawer it is.

----

TOM HANEY: And 285.

PATSY RAMSEY: That is a makeup bag, like a video and video. Can't tell what it is. I don't know
where it is. A wooden something.

TOM HANEY: There is no previous photo that kind of --

PATSY RAMSEY: Goes with that.

TOM HANEY: Yeah.

PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know where it is.

TOM HANEY: Okay. And 286 would be next.

PATSY RAMSEY: This is the John Andrew's room again, that fabric.

TRIP DEMUTH: Do you know what piece of furniture that is that the fabric is on?

PATSY RAMSEY: I can't tell. A chair covering it when they were tossing pillows and the dust
ruffle and the draperies coming down. (Inaudible). I don't know. A little purple bow or something.

----

There's other sections in the transcripts dealing with JAR's area of the house. Tomorrow if I have the time I will go through more of it and try to find it for you.



Even if he had nothing to do with her murder he did NOT deserve the free pass handed to him on a silver platter by BPD/DA. Before she was even buried the Ramseys wanted him ruled out immediately even though he had an out of state alibi. That is a red flag. I would have had investigators all over JAR and his history like white on rice. They ignored him instead. Took the alibi at face value, talked to the friend that was with him, and moved on. That is inexcusable.

The last year of Jonbenet's life should have been placed under a microscope to figure out what was REALLY going on in her life and who was doing what and when. They never made a serious attempt to retrace her steps in the days leading up to her murder, much less an entire year. I think she had a perfect storm brewing around her and was essentially an innocent eye of a dysfunctional hurricane. The chaos she was living reached its horrifying apex Christmas night and had they dug deep in the aftermath, likely would have found key incidents that could have been predictors of a coming tragedy.

nobody explained why there was a collage of John's deceased daughter in his bathroom.

THis info has always baffled me. There's absolutely nothing wrong with a man mourning the death of his older daughter even years after the fact and having pictures is to be expected. Some parents of dead children create things bordering on a shrine and also keep that child's room exactly as it had been when the child died. THis information is a bit on the quirky side. I don't understand the need to have these pictures of her in his bathroom. Obviously there's one thing we imagine him doing in a bathroom setting with these pictures and its quite disturbing.

Having said that, it might not be as disturbing as it sounds. John is likely the type who prefers to be alone when he cries and keeps those emotions in when around others. Maybe he liked to lock himself in the bathroom, look at her pictures and let his emotions boil to the surface.

Its difficult to know the reasoning behind this aspect of the story. We also know very little about his relationship with her other than the fact he was completely devastated by her untimely death.

We know Patsy's inner circle wanted to do an intervention for her Jonbenét obssession, it's also possible Fleet was concerned for the child sometime before the murder is it not?

I agree and I also think things started "clicking" in Fleet's mind that day, whether he was connecting dots to the 23rd party, something before that, the bizarre basement sequence as it unfolded, or linked Jonbenet's inappropriate behavior,etc. to her murder and he blew a gasket.

On the topic of Fleet, I also read here that during Jonbenét's funeral, Fleet was seen arguing with John, shaking his shoulders. I guess they started screaming because somebody told them to behave. And then it was all downhill from there for their friendship. That event only confirms Fleet certainly knew more or at least suspected something was wrong from the very start.

Check out this conversation in the transcript....



TOM HANEY: In the earlier interview, and I think it was the one on April 30 last year, the Whites' name came up as because they were formerly very good friends that you called that morning, but people that you were now suspicious of or something about their behavior. Could you tell us what about them has changed and what you have noticed?

PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I guess --every --

TOM HANEY: Be candid.

PATSY RAMSEY: Well, everything that -- you know, I mean, everything. Our relationship was perfectly normal and fine, and like I said, there are close friends who called first thing that morning. And it was a very traumatic morning, obviously, for everyone there. And people handled things differently, and I know that -- but, suffice to say that Fleet and Priscilla, Fleet probably more so, just on a number of different occasions started reacting very strangely.

TOM HANEY: Okay. How did he react?

PATSY RAMSEY: Well --

TOM HANEY: What did he react to.

PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I guess the first -- let's see. The first time -- I mean, you know, after we found JonBenet, I mean I was just in shock and really was -- was not paying too much attention to things. But the first time I really realized that something was amiss was when we were going to go to Atlanta for the funeral on the Lockheed plane, and there was some like scuttle, confusion or something, why Fleet was not going on that plane. I mean our close friends that had been basically -- you know, I don't know what they were doing, John and my girlfriends were bathing me and feeding me and taking me to the bathroom. I mean I was just immobile for all intents and purposes. And -- and I just remember hearing something that John Fernie was going to detain Fleet because he was in no condition to be put on that plane.

TOM HANEY: No condition due to?

PATSY RAMSEY: He was -- and like I say, I am kind of like just catching, you know, wafts of these conversations. But that was my first recollection. I picked up on something that Fleet was not acting right. And they were going to keep him from going on the private plane back to Atlanta. So anyway, I didn't want to think too much about it, and then when we were in Atlanta, I just sort of remember Priscilla standing in my mother's living room, family room, you know, just kind of like this and saying, "well, I know what's going on" and she said, "if you would give me a few minutes of your time, I could let you in on some things." And I turned to her and I said, "Priscilla, how can you know so much?" And I said, "I am the mother of this child. And I know nothing."

TOM HANEY: What was she referring to?

PATSY RAMSEY: I don't have a clue. I really, I mean, you know, so many times I wish I would have taken her up on it to see what the hell she was talking about. There was just her -- you know, it was just this kind of, I know what's going on here and you don't. And if you give me a few minutes of your time, I could clue you in.

TOM HANEY: But she didn't give you a clue or--

PATSY RAMSEY: Didn't say, didn't say. So that was like the second little thing. So then, let's see. We were at -- we were at my parents, and we had different friends who had come in from Colorado and my friends in Atlanta were putting them up in homes and what not, and my understanding is that Fleet and Priscilla had been invited by my brother and sister-in-law Jeff Ramsey to stay in their home. So I was in bed, and somebody, either my sister, or another friend who was staying there or something, said that Jeff had just called to my parents' home, and said that Fleet was totally off the deep end, had like gotten my brother-in-law and my brother-in-law is -- you think my husband is docile, my brother-in-law is, you know, very docile. Non-confrontational. So Fleet got hold of Jeff's collar, you know, like this, in his face, you know, being very confrontational.

TOM HANEY: Is built --

PATSY RAMSEY: Sorry?

TOM HANEY: Is Fleet a pretty good size?

PATSY RAMSEY: Yes, he's a large man. And anyway, Jeff had called and said to my

dad, they are on their way to your house. Do you have a gun? And I mean for Jeff Ramsey to say something like this in pretty wild. So I just remember, you know, somebody scooping me up and Burke up and my mom and all this and we went downstairs to our basement where my mother had set up some temporary beds and then like, you know, like thrown on the beds, like "don't anybody say anything" and you know, John and my dad were going to try to calm them down or something. You know. Just --

TOM HANEY: Okay. What do you mean again, what did--

PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know, Jeff was saying that Fleet is just crazy. He is crazy, he is coming over there, I don't know what's happened. You know, he's off his rocker.

TOM HANEY: Did he give you a clue though? I mean here your good friends--

PATSY RAMSEY: See, I don't know, because I wasn't -- wasn't having this --

TOM HANEY: The conversation?

PATSY RAMSEY: I am like hearing this thirdhand.

TOM HANEY: Okay.

PATSY RAMSEY: All I know is there was like some big hubbub here about Fleet and Priscilla were going nutso and they were coming over and somebody just crazy, he is crazy, he is coming over there, I don't know what's happened. You know, he's off his rocker.

TOM HANEY: Did he give you a clue though? I mean here your good friend's--

PATSY RAMSEY: See, I don't know because I wasn't, I wasn't having this conversation.

TOM HANEY: The conversation?

PATSY RAMSEY: I am like hearing this thirdhand.

TOM HANEY: Okay.

PATSY RAMSEY: All I know is this was like some big hubbub here about Fleet and Priscilla are going nutso and they are coming over and everybody is afraid of them and da-de-da-de-da.

TOM HANEY: So do they come over?

PATSY RAMSEY: They came over. I do not see them, but John I think called down or something, Jeff Ramsey said he did not want them staying with them. I think John Ramsey and my dad somehow got them to stay in a hotel or something. There in Montreux (phonetic). Then my dad said, you know, I don't know what day this was, all these days were running together. But then my father said that Priscilla called, I guess they were on their way back to Colorado, she called, my dad had just reamed him out, said that she didn't like what she saw in Atlanta one bit. She thought that everything -- that all our friends were, you know, hoity-toity, rich snobs and blah, blah, blah. I mean, just like crazy things. I mean, you know, here we are mourning the death of this child, for crying out loud, and she goes off on this cultural ventilation or something. You know, it just didn't, it didn't make sense. And then so I mean my dad -- (INAUDIBLE) -- so way that was kind of a little incident.

TOM HANEY: Makes sense.

PATSY RAMSEY: And then so I mean my dad is one (INAUDIBLE) so anyway, that was kind of a little incident. But I think some other things happened that I wasn't really privy to. I think John may be more aware of. But then the other time that was really frightening to me is, we had come back to Colorado and John and I were in Father Rol's office, in the church, and my dad was sitting out in the little waiting area. And Father Rol and John and I were praying, and Fleet White burst into the door, burst into the office. And he is just, his eyes are just wild. And you know, I kind of did this number, and he got down on his knees, and looked like --and had a business card in his hand, and he was leaning over to my husband saying, "you know what this is, John, you know what this means, John, you know what I am going to have to do with this, John, I am going to have to handle this my way, John." I mean he was just on and on and on.

And I said, "Fleet, Fleet, what is it?" And he handed me this business card and it was a business card from some journalist or something, and it had a note on the back. And it said, I don't know exactly word for word, but something to the effect of, you know, Mr. White, there has been some question as towhether it was you or John Ramsey who removed the tape from JonBenet's mouth. You know. And about the sequence of the basement discovery. Because we had talking about this. Well, he said they are after me and my family now, John, I am going to have to and he was just like a maniac and Father Rol said to calm down and you know, he said, "I am going to handle it my way, John, my way, John and you know, Father Rol was just trying to get them to calm down. "It's okay Fleet," you know, "what do you mean by your way?" You know, calm down. You know, it will be okay.

-------

 

[icedtea4me]

Could someone please point me to the source for these inappropriate photos? How about a reliable source too?

Gee... You'd think someone would've posted a source by now.

 

[singularity]

Gee... You'd think someone would've posted a source by now.

Meh. I didn't take his specific request as genuine. Anyone who has followed this case to such a length to the point of quoting various transcripts certainly has read about the issue of these photographs. It's an attempt to derail discussion and/or run in circles....a tactic I loathe, have seen many times, and a reason I bailed on these JBR forums years ago.

In fact, I've read posts of yours at FFJ discussing this very issue yet that is your response here now. In other words, you've read about it,participated in discussions on the subject, yet now need "sources" all of a sudden.

Not playing that game. Someone else can.

I have no problem digging through transcripts, articles, etc. for someone just recently getting interested in the case or coming back to it after a lengthy absence from it like Frankie, FF, etc. but I can sense rhetorical, disingenuous forum tactics a light year away.

 

[FrankieB]

I for one truly appreciate your work Singularity, thank you for digging out those portions of the transcripts, I had not read them before.
I wanted to watch Patsy's deposition on youtube last night but everything gets interrupted by the lawyer so frequently it was tedious to watch.

"The last year of Jonbenet's life should have been placed under a microscope to figure out what was REALLY going on in her life and who was doing what and when. They never made a serious attempt to retrace her steps in the days leading up to her murder, much less an entire year. I think she had a perfect storm brewing around her and was essentially an innocent eye of a dysfunctional hurricane. The chaos she was living reached its horrifying apex Christmas night and had they dug deep in the aftermath, likely would have found key incidents that could have been predictors of a coming tragedy."

you're a hundred percent right.

 

[UKGuy]

This guy ^ knows what he's talking about. UK and I may disagree on the Burke angle but he's my favorite poster here. Instead of claiming something an "outrage" or telling people to do more research who have researched the case up, down, and sideways, he likes to stick to the facts when discussing the case instead of trying to talk down to people.

Newcomers to the case/forum should pay close attention to his posts.

UK wasn't it a pile of photographs in the basement and not actually contained in a photo album? I realize there were photo albums but when it comes to the pictures being discussed, I'm pretty sure they were tossed down there quickly and were not in family photo albums. I also believe that second cigar box that Fleet White noticed and John tried to distance himself from contained photographs of Jonbenet, NOT cigars.

Frankie, there were many inappropriate photos of her. It's sickening and what makes it even worse is they dodged the issue in the transcripts....although there are redactions so maybe we just aren't privy to their explanations.

singularity,
Although I'm not 100% on this, from memory there was an album of photos, i.e. an organized collection focused on JonBenet, I'll see if I can find the source for you.

Also the photographs were not pornographic I think the were described as inappropriate, or something of that nature, i.e. the poses and postures were not that of your school face book,

.

 

[BoldBear]

Meh. I didn't take his specific request as genuine. Anyone who has followed this case to such a length to the point of quoting various transcripts certainly has read about the issue of these photographs. It's an attempt to derail discussion and/or run in circles....a tactic I loathe, have seen many times, and a reason I bailed on these JBR forums years ago.

In fact, I've read posts of yours at FFJ discussing this very issue yet that is your response here now. In other words, you've read about it,participated in discussions on the subject, yet now need "sources" all of a sudden.

Not playing that game. Someone else can.

I have no problem digging through transcripts, articles, etc. for someone just recently getting interested in the case or coming back to it after a lengthy absence from it like Frankie, FF, etc. but I can sense rhetorical, disingenuous forum tactics a light year away.

My intentions were to stick with the rules of Websleuths. There was no intention to derail your topic. You just needed to stay within the rules. If there would have been any such photos, don't you think the tabloids would have run with it? Your answer was that the Ramsey machine was so big it squashed that evidence from ever coming out. That's an assumption I don't accept. You need a credible source.

There was also a claim that Santa Bill showed-up with the gingerbread house because he was interested in abusing JB. That's as valid assumption as any other, but gosh, there couldn't have been any other reason for him wanting to butter-up Patsy. He couldn't have possibly wanted to be paid to do another Christmas party. Right? I don't know how much he got paid, but $500 to $1000 is a lot of money to someone on a limited income especially around Christmas. There was also a possibility that the bakery that made the gingerbread house would also get business from Patsy...and surprise! They made gingerbread houses at the 1996 Christmas party.

Next the conversation has gone to JB having multiple abusers. If she had multiple abusers, would someone please explain how the evidence never went from went from digital penetration to penile penetration? You'll never find me denying the evidence that she was abused, but what I've been reading here is that there's been a parade of abusers. If that's someone's theory, that's fine too. I find it as credible as any IDI theory.

And the Ramseys avoided answering questions about JAR's room. Okay. This room was one of many areas they were avoiding. Hell, Patsy apparently spent a few hours in that room packing, but really couldn't recall anything about it. We're also supposed to believe that a short length of rope was used by JAR because he liked the outdoors. There isn't any part of that that makes sense unless the police follow-up with JAR and ask him if it was his rope and what he used it for. There are many questions about this room that had vague or no answers.

I have a theory about this too. If I didn't, I would have left long ago and left the hill to the kings. I'm just not going to present it until it's ready. Then I expect it to be torn to shreds. After that, I'll be able to put this thing back in the box and get away from it. I don't think obsessing over the murder of a little girl is good for me.

 

[UKGuy]

singularity,
Although I'm not 100% on this, from memory there was an album of photos, i.e. an organized collection focused on JonBenet, I'll see if I can find the source for you.

Also the photographs were not pornographic I think the were described as inappropriate, or something of that nature, i.e. the poses and postures were not that of your school face book,

.

singularity,
Maybe it was just a pile of photos, here is the reference:

Patsy 1998 BPD Interview

10 TRIP DeMUTH: And do you remember

11 photographs being -- photographs of JonBenet

12 being in there?

13 PATSY RAMSEY: Taken of her in the

14 laundry room?

15 TRIP DeMUTH: No, no. Photographs

16 of her located in the laundry room?

17 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, in the laundry

18 room, oh. I don't know, there was a bunch of

19 stuff, I mean wrapping stuff and everything. I

20 don't remember any photographs.

21 TRIP DeMUTH: Is there any reason

22 why there would be photographs of JonBenet

23 located in the laundry room?

24 PATSY RAMSEY: No. Were there --

25 I mean, did somebody find them there?

0187

1 TRIP DeMUTH: If there were, would

2 that be out of place for you?

3 PATSY RAMSEY: It would seem to be

4 out of place. I kept wrapping materials and

5 sometimes I worked, wrapping station, Christmas

6 paper and --

.

 

[otg]

Before rumor, speculation, and supposition become accepted as fact, let’s look at what we know about some of the things that have been posted here. After reading this post, take a look at a thread beginning here (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?70120-John-Ramsey-on-Oprah&p=2651335#post2651335) and you can see how a rumor or speculation gets posted, and then it takes on a life of its own. (I’m reminded here of that favorite line of mine in the movie The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance.)


Search Warrants:

The Charlevoix home had two search warrants issued. Search warrants are very specific about what is being looked for and have to state the reasons why stated objects are being sought because of our wonderful Fourth Amendment to the Constitution (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution). The first SW for Charlevoix was issued January 5, 1997, and was specifically looking for evidence of threats to the family (in letters or on the answering machine) or unlawful entry and/or surveillance of the home. That SW can be read here:
http://www.acandyrose.com/01051997warrant.htm

The second SW was issued two months later on March 6, 1997. That SW was written specifically to obtain “historical writings” of Patsy Ramsey, because by that time they had eliminated John and Burke as the writers of the RN -- but not Patsy. CBI Agent Chet Ubowski believed Patsy had tried to alter her handwriting in the samples she had provided, and Det. Jane Harmer had seen handwriting samples during execution of the first SW. Here’s an example where the fact that the first SW did not authorize anything more than what was stated, investigators were not allowed to collect those writing samples without having a new SW issued to cover collection of them. That SW can be read here:
http://www.acandyrose.com/03061997warrant.htm

One of the items collected during this second search was a photo album which had handwritten captions with some of the photos. THAT is the reason for collecting the photo album from Charlevoix, and most here have seen a few of the photos in that album with printing on them that Patsy denied knowledge of while under deposition.


“Inappropriate” Photos:

One of the biggest mysteries around photos was initiated by questioning of Patsy about a photo (or photos) found in the basement that Tom Haney described as “cutesy.” He and Trip DeMuth were tag-teaming her with questions and it’s not really clear that they were describing a photo that was shot of JonBenet doing something in the basement, or a photo that was shot somewhere else and then moved to the basement. That questioning is in the 0185 section and begins with:

21 THOMAS HANEY: Did you take some
22 photographs of JonBenet in the basement laundry
23 room?

During that questioning, it was never described as an “album,” and the photo(s) was (were) never described by investigators as “inappropriate.” There obviously was something very odd about this that they were trying to find out about, but that is all we know with certainty about that photo (or photos). I too wish we knew more, but until something else comes out, all we can do is speculate -- but realize that this is all we have on this (speculation).

Add to the above questions about the photo(s) in the Ramsey basement, another item. Someone who met and visited with Patsy long after 1996 described seeing a photo hanging on the wall of the Ramseys’ home (I think in Charlevoix) that was taken of JonBenet. That woman described the photo as being suggestive of her being covered only with a feather boa. Much has been made of this, and there have been others who reported it. Another version had that the woman was “house hunting” even thought at the time, the house was not being sold. Stephen Singular even repeated something like this in his book, Presumed Guilty (page 160). His description is that “The photograph, the woman said, showed JonBenet with a provocative expression on her face, wearing nothing but make-up and a feather boa snaking around her torso.” I’ve also seen that this said photo was a “glamour shot” taken when she was apparently around three years old. Another version of this story has Linda Hoffman-Pugh saying the said photo hung on the Ramsey wall but was removed before calling the BPD to report the “kidnapping.” (I put no validity to this story, or even to LHP’s having related it, because after JonBenet’s death she never had occasion to be back in the Boulder home to know.) So was JonBenet actually nude in the photo (if it existed), or was it simply suggestive of nudity with her clothing covered by the feather boa? Never having seen the photo, again all we have is rumor and speculation.

We’ve all seen some of the “glamour shots” taken of JonBenet (along with some that included Burke) where she has that “sultry, pouty look”. I agree that they are very suggestive for kids that age and I can’t help but wonder how the photographer managed to get “that look” on JonBenet’s face. Where did JonBenet get ideas about how to pose like that? (IMO probably from the same source that caused her to say that for Halloween she wanted to be a “sexy witch” -- not a “good witch,” not a “bad witch,” -- a “sexy witch.”) Personally, I don't think I would have my children posing like the ones I'm referring to, but I wouldn't go so far as to call them "pornographic." Others might feel even more strongly than I do about them, but that is just personal opinion.


The Fleet White Argument:

The two disputes with Fleet White are well-documented. It never became physical. He never threatened anyone. He was mad at John because the Ramseys were denying interviews with BPD yet going on CNN to declare their innocence. At the same time, White had been contacted by Ramsey PIs, lawyers, and tabloid reporters trying to get information about what he had told BPD and exactly what he might know. Priscilla did also attempt to tell Patsy something about “what was going on” that Patsy didn’t want to hear. We can speculate about what that might have been, but Priscilla has never spoken publicly about it. (Just a reminder here that Daphne was the same age as JonBenet and they were close friends, and FW-III was a little younger than Burke but played with him and DS. I can imagine there was a lot of questioning of their kids by the Whites after JonBenet was found dead.)


Happier Times:

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/335096028505653643/

 

[FrankieB]

One of the items collected during this second search was a photo album which had handwritten captions with some of the photos. THAT is the reason for collecting the photo album from Charlevoix, and most here have seen a few of the photos in that album with printing on them that Patsy denied knowledge of while under deposition.

Yes this is quite strange, it is unclear if the word Doctor is written incorrectly because of the poor quality scan, it kind of looks like "Docter"
They also fail to recognize some of the children in another one of the photos.

But back to the Doctor picture, the baby in the picture is Burke right? so the caption is written I assume from the first person perspective, but I think we all agree it is unlikely the boy (or any boy for that matter) would write the caption on his own, it was likely dictated by an adult. OR it was written by an adult altogether. If there is nothing to worry about behind these captions, why deny them and go to the great lenghts of pretending you had never seen the hand written captions on your album? I'll tell you why, because the hand writing looks like the ransom note doesn't it?

I might have been predisposed by comments on another thread but it does look very similar to me.

We have never seen Burke's hand writing I reckon? to successfuly rule him out as the writer of the captions...

 

[FrankieB]

We’ve all seen some of the “glamour shots” taken of JonBenet (along with some that included Burke) where she has that “sultry, pouty look”. I agree that they are very suggestive for kids that age and I can’t help but wonder how the photographer managed to get “that look” on JonBenet’s face. Where did JonBenet get ideas about how to pose like that? (IMO probably from the same source that caused her to say that for Halloween she wanted to be a “sexy witch” -- not a “good witch,” not a “bad witch,” -- a “sexy witch.&#8221 Personally, I don't think I would have my children posing like the ones I'm referring to, but I wouldn't go so far as to call them "pornographic." Others might feel even more strongly than I do about them, but that is just personal opinion.

I had never heard about this, thank you. Is there anything more to it? do we know know she said this to? thanks!

 

[Tadpole12]

Chiiling indeed.

Having said that, what exactly constitutes child ? Obviously the waters get very muddy on this issue, even in extreme cases where people are arrested with tons of it on their computers.

A child having sex would certainly qualify but once you go further down the ladder, it can get confusing. Parents have been arrested for developing film of their children taking baths. Extreme example certainly but that is NOT child .

I forgot who in the investigation said this(I'm sure someone can jump in with the source) but it has been claimed no ACTUAL child was found in the Ramsey home. I believe it. I don't believe JOhn was/is a pedophile(IF so, situational) and I doubt they were recording/photographing any sex acts with anyone. These people were dysfunctional but there are limits to any family dysfunction.

Having said that, an elephant still exists in the basement......"inappropriate" pics of a six year old murder victim dumped within fairly close proximity of her body. There were also similar pics in the family's other home. 1+1=2 here... at least one person had a seriously inappropriate infatuation with her. IMO more than one person did but its most likely that only one person(in the family) was taking these pictures and collecting them. I believe the photographer to be John Andrew.....his area of the house looks like Yucca Flats after the blast and was definitely a key area of the house that night. Do I think he was there? NO. However, I do believe the other adults in the house knew of his fixation on her and realized there were probably things in his room that needed to be dumped in the godforsaken hellhole of that basement.

"Inappropriate" and "cutesy" can mean many things. Any photo of a child nude, partially nude, or in the act of taking their clothes off, provocative posing(even fully clothed), Doing suggestive things with their mouth, tongue, or an object, etc. would fall under that broad umbrella.

I'm sure many of you who have followed this case for years and even those doing just basic research have stumbled upon articles detailing the child pageant and modeling world. Things going on there can fall under that umbrella as well.

THis is why I have always wanted a description of the photographs found in the basement and the few on the roll of film taken that day. The pictures tell a story. They not only reveal which person(s) had such an interest in her, what type of interest(such as fetishes), they can help indicate how long that interest was, the mood of the victim in these pictures, etc. A profile of sorts could be made of the photographer and victim based on these photographs. I have serious doubts the BPD or DA even attempted such a thing. I would hope the FBI had a very, VERY close look at these photographs.

TY singularity,
I had not considered that particular option wrt the photographs, that JAR's room
would need to be sanitized. The said presence of the Dr Seuss/ Lady Godiva book is consistent with the premise?

 

[Tadpole12]

My intentions were to stick with the rules of Websleuths. There was no intention to derail your topic. You just needed to stay within the rules. If there would have been any such photos, don't you think the tabloids would have run with it? Your answer was that the Ramsey machine was so big it squashed that evidence from ever coming out. That's an assumption I don't accept. You need a credible source.

There was also a claim that Santa Bill showed-up with the gingerbread house because he was interested in abusing JB. That's as valid assumption as any other, but gosh, there couldn't have been any other reason for him wanting to butter-up Patsy. He couldn't have possibly wanted to be paid to do another Christmas party. Right? I don't know how much he got paid, but $500 to $1000 is a lot of money to someone on a limited income especially around Christmas. There was also a possibility that the bakery that made the gingerbread house would also get business from Patsy...and surprise! They made gingerbread houses at the 1996 Christmas party.

Next the conversation has gone to JB having multiple abusers. If she had multiple abusers, would someone please explain how the evidence never went from went from digital penetration to penile penetration?

outercourse

You'll never find me denying the evidence that she was abused, but what I've been reading here is that there's been a parade of abusers. If that's someone's theory, that's fine too. I find it as credible as any IDI theory.

And the Ramseys avoided answering questions about JAR's room. Okay. This room was one of many areas they were avoiding. Hell, Patsy apparently spent a few hours in that room packing, but really couldn't recall anything about it. We're also supposed to believe that a short length of rope was used by JAR because he liked the outdoors. There isn't any part of that that makes sense unless the police follow-up with JAR and ask him if it was his rope and what he used it for. There are many questions about this room that had vague or no answers.

I have a theory about this too. If I didn't, I would have left long ago and left the hill to the kings. I'm just not going to present it until it's ready. Then I expect it to be torn to shreds. After that, I'll be able to put this thing back in the box and get away from it. I don't think obsessing over the murder of a little girl is good for me.

Oh BB. I hope that resolution is imminent.

 

[Tadpole12]

I wish I could remember the exact source of this info but it was too many years ago but I assume one of the people here for years might remember....

Supposedly when they seized various items in the Charlevoix home, one of the photographs taken was of Jonbenet on the bed wearing nothing but cowboy boots. It gave me a chill. I had always thought someone in that family had a cowgirl or boot fetish and hearing about that just reinforced it.

If that info is/was not supposed to be posted in the open, moderators should delete it. LIke I said, I don't remember the exact source. Too many years/drugs ago.


THis is speculation obviously but I always felt that someone was doing something to her and one of the other guests walked in on the assult in progress, and out of shock instinctively dialed 911 but then hung up out of fear or someone else in the house hanging the phone up on them.


Also agree that it likely led to her murder.


I may have confused it with one of their other discussions about Santa. It might have even been John who said it. Not going through those right now looking for it.


I do find it interesting that you think his unhealthy interest in a 5-6 year old girl is ok as long as it doesn't include a walk. Under no circumstances whatsoever is what Patsy just described normal. Any man who will go to such lengths to hang out with a child needs to be several light years away from that child. Period.

singulariy,
First I've heard of the Charlevoix photo,.
Ughh. WT

 

[otg]

I had never heard about this, thank you. Is there anything more to it? do we know know she said this to? thanks!

Linda Wilcox, Ramsey housekeeper from 1993 through 1995. JonBenet was four years old at the time she said it. Wilcox talked about it on the Peter Boyles radio show in July, 1998. Transcript of interview is here (And my memory was incorrect -- she said she was "going to be a good, sexy witch."):
http://www.acandyrose.com/s-linda-wilcox.htm

 

[Tadpole12]

http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/tv/la-et-st-cbs-fall-premiere-dates-20160621-snap-story.html
June 21.2016

"On Tuesday, CBS announced premiere dates for new and returning shows for the upcoming fall season.One of the most anticipated shows of the fall, “Case Closed," begins Sept. 18. The six-hour limited documentary series will re-examine the 1996 killing of JonBenet Ramsey and joins a spate of true-crime projects on the small screen."

 

[icedtea4me]

singularity,
Maybe it was just a pile of photos, here is the reference:

Patsy 1998 BPD Interview


.

[FONT=&quot]0206[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 1 THOMAS HANEY: Today is Wednesday,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 2 June 24, 1998 and the time is approximately[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 3 9:03 a.m. Again we are present in the[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 4 Broomfield Police Department. Present is[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 5 Patricia Ramsey (INAUDIBLE) and how did you[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 6 spend yesterday, how did you feel?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 7 PATSY RAMSEY: Fine, great. I[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 8 think, a couple of things that I thought about,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 9 that I wanted to clarify maybe. You were asking[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]10 about -- particularly about the pictures of[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]11 JonBenet in the basement, and I remember that I[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]12 had taken some Xerox copies of her portfolio[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]13 pictures, you know, studio head shots. And[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]14 there was a paper cutter down there, and that I[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]15 used, and that --[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]16 TRIP DeMUTH: That could be it?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]17 PATSY RAMSEY: That could be it.

http://www.acandyrose.com/1998BPD-Patsy-Interview-Complete.htm[/FONT]

 

[UKGuy]

[FONT=&quot]0206[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 1 THOMAS HANEY: Today is Wednesday,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 2 June 24, 1998 and the time is approximately[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 3 9:03 a.m. Again we are present in the[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 4 Broomfield Police Department. Present is[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 5 Patricia Ramsey (INAUDIBLE) and how did you[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 6 spend yesterday, how did you feel?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 7 PATSY RAMSEY: Fine, great. I[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 8 think, a couple of things that I thought about,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 9 that I wanted to clarify maybe. You were asking[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]10 about -- particularly about the pictures of[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]11 JonBenet in the basement, and I remember that I[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]12 had taken some Xerox copies of her portfolio[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]13 pictures, you know, studio head shots. And[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]14 there was a paper cutter down there, and that I[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]15 used, and that --[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]16 TRIP DeMUTH: That could be it?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]17 PATSY RAMSEY: That could be it.

http://www.acandyrose.com/1998BPD-Patsy-Interview-Complete.htm[/FONT]

icedtea4me,
That could be it.

Head shots, why would they elicit such interest if that's all they were? There would be no need for questions if they were just portfolio pictures?

You have to wonder!

.

 

[mrseeker]

I can't get past the note. IMHO Patsy wrote it. I think there was a moment of rage and remorse. She spent the rest of the night staging it. If John had been involved they would have dumped the body before calling the police. The note is begging John to leave the house and go to the bank. why? so Patsy could dump the body all staged. She could have not left the house with John in it. The note is clearly trying to convince John to go to the bank or leave the house. Then she would be able to move the body. A speck of DNA supposedly found does not change the note is ridiculous and only one person could have written it. And it never mentions her.

 

[FrankieB]

Linda's interview is full of interesting things

I agree the collage *could be explained by John not wanting to be seen grieving Beth

but what about: Mom am I fat? that's the first time I read any situation where Burke might have been a little jealous of Jonbenét's attention. The way I see it, he was left in peace to enjoy his life and video games while all the pressure was on her.