Who Killed Jon Benet Ramsey? Poll

[otg]

Notice this from the article (bbm):

Why do you think Burke has never spoken to the media about his sister’s murder?

I think he probably wants to stay out of the media spotlight. I think it’s probably based on legal advice as well, to not speak to the media. There was a lot of focus and attention on this case both nationally and internationally, and I suspect that the family got tired of that as well and wanted to protect him rather than offer him up for interviews. I talked to a network producer several years ago who said they had made an approach to see if he would be interested in interviewing. I was told he wanted a pretty big sum of money to do so. It sounded like he was willing to do the interview but they weren’t willing to come up with the kind of figure they might have been talking about. That was what was relayed to me by the producer.
​

 

[DeDee]

https://www.realcrimedaily.com/debu...what-was-the-familys-real-role-in-the-murder/

I love this article and I love James Kolar. We may not agree on every point but he is as honest of a man as there is.

Telluride Town Marshall James Kolar lets the reader know, in no uncertain terms, that JonBenet was VICIOUSLY murdered. He stated it were as if two sets of hands were at play at conflict with one another: One the vicious killer, and the other who tucked JB into a cuddly white blanket.

Folks often liked to make the bindings seem almost insignificant since they were not tightly bound around JBs wrists.

"One aspect of staging in this instance is that there were ligature marks on JonBenét’s wrists even though the bindings were loose when her body was discovered." James Kolar

This child was bound much tighter, at some point, than the way in which she was discovered.

" ... there were ligature marks on JonBenét’s wrists ... "

 

[CorallaroC]

https://www.realcrimedaily.com/debu...what-was-the-familys-real-role-in-the-murder/

I love this article and I love James Kolar. We may not agree on every point but he is as honest of a man as there is.

Telluride Town Marshall James Kolar lets the reader know, in no uncertain terms, that JonBenet was VICIOUSLY murdered. He stated it were as if two sets of hands were at play at conflict with one another: One the vicious killer, and the other who tucked JB into a cuddly white blanket.

Folks often liked to make the bindings seem almost insignificant since they were not tightly bound around JBs wrists.

"One aspect of staging in this instance is that there were ligature marks on JonBenét’s wrists even though the bindings were loose when her body was discovered." James Kolar

This child was bound much tighter, at some point, than the way in which she was discovered.

" ... there were ligature marks on JonBenét’s wrists ... "

Hi DeDee, I heartily agree with most of your post above. Kolar is great, very helpful toward solving this case even if true justice cannot be obtained now, especially at this late date. The reason I bolded one small part of your post (where you quote from the article regarding ligature marks on her wrists) is that I'm not totally convinced the accuracy of the well-written article quoting Kolar. It appears to be an error IMO. I do not ever recall there being a reliable source saying there were ligature marks on her wrists - in fact, what most sources indicate is the ABSENCE of marks left on her wrists - which adds to the suspicion of pure staging.

But again, I like your ideas on this topic. And I really like Kolar's evaluation of the entire case as a whole.

 

[reintarnation]

Hi DeDee, I heartily agree with most of your post above. Kolar is great, very helpful toward solving this case even if true justice cannot be obtained now, especially at this late date. The reason I bolded one small part of your post (where you quote from the article regarding ligature marks on her wrists) is that I'm not totally convinced the accuracy of the well-written article quoting Kolar. It appears to be an error IMO. I do not ever recall there being a reliable source saying there were ligature marks on her wrists - in fact, what most sources indicate is the ABSENCE of marks left on her wrists - which adds to the suspicion of pure staging.

But again, I like your ideas on this topic. And I really like Kolar's evaluation of the entire case as a whole.

I agree and agree some more! Is it possible this is previously unreleased info that was not in the public domain? I understood the ligature evidence exactly as CorallaroC did. Additionally, hasn't it been surmised that these ligatures were applied once the body was already stiff with rigor mortis when JBR's hands were above her head? This quote/information from Kolar could be explosive if that's the case. I wish I could find more detail on his point.

 

[questfortrue]

Hi DeDee, I heartily agree with most of your post above. Kolar is great, very helpful toward solving this case even if true justice cannot be obtained now, especially at this late date. The reason I bolded one small part of your post (where you quote from the article regarding ligature marks on her wrists) is that I'm not totally convinced the accuracy of the well-written article quoting Kolar. It appears to be an error IMO. I do not ever recall there being a reliable source saying there were ligature marks on her wrists - in fact, what most sources indicate is the ABSENCE of marks left on her wrists - which adds to the suspicion of pure staging.

But again, I like your ideas on this topic. And I really like Kolar's evaluation of the entire case as a whole.

Thanks, CorallaroC and DeDee.

Totally in agreement as to how much Kolar has done for this case.

From another forum I recall someone noting a red mark on JB's wrist, and another person believing it was due to her bracelet. So, IDK.

But if one believes there were two stagers (there were at least two, imo), and one can consider that the two were down in the basement at separate times, it becomes easier to believe that JonBenét may have had tighter wrist ligatures before someone cut the cord between the wrist ligatures and maybe the neck ligature. One also has to question why JR claims to have been trying to remove the wrist ligatures which he said were tight, and which the coroner found so loose he easily removed the remaining wrist ligature. Could JR have been considering it 'bad staging'?

Since this information regarding these wrist ligatures was attributed to Kolar, I find the information more credible than if it had appeared in a tabloid. However, there was once some tabloid information which caught my eye and is interesting in light of what Kolar mentioned. It appeared in two issues of the Star. Since it’s from a tabloid, just take this info as only a simple possibility: PR allegedly told a friend hours after JonBenét was found that JonBenét was trussed up like a mummy with the blanket wrapped tightly around her, not lovingly wrapped like a papoose. It was PR’s belief that someone meant to dispose of JonBenét so that she was never found.

 

[Tadpole12]

http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...the-murder/&num=1&hl=en&gl=ca&strip=1&vwsrc=0


"One aspect of staging in this instance is that there were ligature marks on JonBenét’s wrists even though the bindings were loose when her body was discovered. The purpose of a binding is to restrict someone from moving their hands and arms. In JonBenét’s case, the loops around her wrists were so loose that there would have been no abrasions or ligature marks on her wrists"

 

[BBB167893]

Thanks, CorallaroC and DeDee.

Totally in agreement as to how much Kolar has done for this case.

From another forum I recall someone noting a red mark on JB's wrist, and another person believing it was due to her bracelet. So, IDK.

But if one believes there were two stagers (there were at least two, imo), and one can consider that the two were down in the basement at separate times, it becomes easier to believe that JonBenét may have had tighter wrist ligatures before someone cut the cord between the wrist ligatures and maybe the neck ligature. One also has to question why JR claims to have been trying to remove the wrist ligatures which he said were tight, and which the coroner found so loose he easily removed the remaining wrist ligature. Could JR have been considering it 'bad staging'?

Yes, that idea has occurred to me. Every now and then, someone will say, "why did he find the body if he was involved?" And the answer I usually give is, "Plan B." he got cold feet about the staging and decided to "explain" it, all with his buddy Fleet right there to witness his performance.

Since this information regarding these wrist ligatures was attributed to Kolar, I find the information more credible than if it had appeared in a tabloid. However, there was once some tabloid information which caught my eye and is interesting in light of what Kolar mentioned. It appeared in two issues of the Star. Since it’s from a tabloid, just take this info as only a simple possibility: PR allegedly told a friend hours after JonBenét was found that JonBenét was trussed up like a mummy with the blanket wrapped tightly around her, not lovingly wrapped like a papoose. It was PR’s belief that someone meant to dispose of JonBenét so that she was never found.

Ah, but how would PR know that, since she claims she never saw JB down in that basement? And maybe there was a plan to dipose of her, at first. Still, you're right: it's just a possibility.

 

[ozazure]

The purpose of staging is to deceive about what really happened. I think one of the long established problems with this case is that long ago the circumstances in which JonBenet was found has been identified as staging, when what we have factually is that there was inefficient or subsequently modified restraints and/or a choking device, likely tentative or restrained sexual assault compared with what generally happens in sexually motivated homicide, insufficient clean up and odd re-dressing. We don't know what part of any of that was done with the purpose of deceit to the "true" nature of the crime.

We can make a reasonable inference that the cleaning and re-dressing can be done for dual purposes, to hide evidence and to care for JonBenet. But the other stuff - they could be legitimate artefacts of the crime even though they are bizarre. So theories grow around the idea that these elements are manufactured for the purpose of deceit when they were not, they were genuine parts of the initial crime.

 

[singularity]

http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...the-murder/&num=1&hl=en&gl=ca&strip=1&vwsrc=0


"One aspect of staging in this instance is that there were ligature marks on JonBenét’s wrists even though the bindings were loose when her body was discovered. The purpose of a binding is to restrict someone from moving their hands and arms. In JonBenét’s case, the loops around her wrists were so loose that there would have been no abrasions or ligature marks on her wrists"

Isn't this what started the theory that she may have been hung up by those bindings?

We can make a reasonable inference that the cleaning and re-dressing can be done for dual purposes, to hide evidence and to care for JonBenet. But the other stuff - they could be legitimate artefacts of the crime even though they are bizarre. So theories grow around the idea that these elements are manufactured for the purpose of deceit when they were not, they were genuine parts of the initial crime.

Absolutely. Excellent observation.

 

[Tadpole12]

So are there ligature marks on the wrists to be seen?

http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=3935&stc=1&d=1256067148

http://www.acandyrose.com/jonbenethandleft.jpg

yes?

 

[Tadpole12]

basement floor plans:
http://b.heart.50megs.com/ramsey/Images/Bsmt.jpg

[video=youtube;2q8YkikAoSk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2q8YkikAoSk&index=5&list=UUIpISsUtk7LemdNDHAz4ycA[/video]

Ramsey Home Tour 2B

re wine cellar
24:20 This is the light switch just inside the door
would be on the left hand side as you
open the door and entered the room.
the door to the room swings from right - correction -
from left to right and opens out away from the wine cellar.

re boiler room
26:06 This is where the light switch is located,
just inside the door, on the left as you would come through the door.
This particular door swings in.
Cabinet located in this area, with several drawers and doors.
Should also be noted that the height of these light switches, down here
this one here and the one in the wine room are approximately the same height
And they're a little higher than most normal house light switches


[switch protrudes from stud]

 

[UKGuy]

Thanks, CorallaroC and DeDee.

Totally in agreement as to how much Kolar has done for this case.

From another forum I recall someone noting a red mark on JB's wrist, and another person believing it was due to her bracelet. So, IDK.

But if one believes there were two stagers (there were at least two, imo), and one can consider that the two were down in the basement at separate times, it becomes easier to believe that JonBenét may have had tighter wrist ligatures before someone cut the cord between the wrist ligatures and maybe the neck ligature. One also has to question why JR claims to have been trying to remove the wrist ligatures which he said were tight, and which the coroner found so loose he easily removed the remaining wrist ligature. Could JR have been considering it 'bad staging'?

Since this information regarding these wrist ligatures was attributed to Kolar, I find the information more credible than if it had appeared in a tabloid. However, there was once some tabloid information which caught my eye and is interesting in light of what Kolar mentioned. It appeared in two issues of the Star. Since it’s from a tabloid, just take this info as only a simple possibility: PR allegedly told a friend hours after JonBenét was found that JonBenét was trussed up like a mummy with the blanket wrapped tightly around her, not lovingly wrapped like a papoose. It was PR’s belief that someone meant to dispose of JonBenét so that she was never found.

questfortrue,
Coroner Meyer makes no reference to ligature marks in his Autopsy Report here is where he cites wrist or ligature etc.

FINAL DIAGNOSIS:

I. Ligature strangulation

...

VII. Ligature of right wrist

...

A brief examination of the body disclosed a ligature around the neck and a ligature around the right wrist.

...

Wrapped around the neck with a double knot in the midline of the posterior neck is a length of white cord similar to that described as being tied around the right wrist.

...

On the middle finger of the right hand is a yellow metal band. Around the right wrist is a yellow metal identification bracelet with the name "JonBenet" on one side and the date "12/25/96" on the other side.

So despite Meyer explicitly saying he looked closely at the right wrist he makes no mention of ligature marks or furrow, etc.

Its absence in the report will not make or break the case. Kolar is talking up what presumably must be part of his case theory, which does not detract from his central point, i.e. more than one person was involved in the staging.

I have always thought that there was multiple staging and Kolar is firming this up. I put it to SuperDave that Patsy could have asphyxiated and staged JonBenet with JR later amending the staging. The same evidence also allows for a BDI where BR does some initial staging with later both PR and JR amending it to suit their kidnapping scenario?

.

 

[UKGuy]

So are there ligature marks on the wrists to be seen?

http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=3935&stc=1&d=1256067148

http://www.acandyrose.com/jonbenethandleft.jpg

yes?

On the second picture jonbenethandleft.jpg there is a faint red mark on her wrist but could have arisen from liver mortis and the lower arm edge of the white gap top?

.

 

[Tadpole12]

light switch:

 

[Tadpole12]

On the second picture jonbenethandleft.jpg there is a faint red mark on her wrist but could have arisen from liver mortis and the lower arm edge of the white gap top?

.

 

[reintarnation]

...long ago the circumstances in which JonBenet was found has been identified as staging...

...We don't know what part of any of that was done with the purpose of deceit to the "true" nature of the crime...

...they could be legitimate artefacts of the crime even though they are bizarre. So theories grow around the idea that these elements are manufactured for the purpose of deceit when they were not, they were genuine parts of the initial crime.

Excellent points made, ozazure! You provide us with an important reminder to take evidence at face value and not get so hung up on our personal speculative theories that we consider opinions to be absolutes.

The ligatures may have been staging or may have been part of the murder. Looks like from Kolar's words and the work of others that even the experts disagree on this point.

If the ligatures were not staging, then IMO they had to be applied prior to the incapacitating head blow (otherwise, what is the point?). If that's the case, then why would JBR submit to that without some sort of struggle against them? And what other evidence is there indicating she was being subdued or controlled? If that wasn't the purpose of the restraints, then what was? Given the way her body was found, does that mean that her wrists were tied above her head and maybe she was hung? Again, to what end, and what other evidence supports that? If it was part of sexual molestation or assault by BR or JR, given that resistance wasn't apparent (IMO), then isn't it reasonable to assume this sort of set up had been used previously? If so, where is the evidence of that?

My point is that for me, accepting that the ligatures aren't part of the staging creates more questions than it answers. In the interest of K.I.S.S., that's a deterrent for me. But that doesn't mean that the facts point definitively to staging or anything else...the facts are the presence of ligatures and the marks they left behind, and any opinion drawn from that evidence is still an opinion, no matter how resolutely we believe it.

Also, I am in the camp that believes the head blow was accidental and occurred somewhere else in the house. That makes it seem more likely that the ligatures were staging. It's another one of those bizarre clues, as you mentioned, that don't make sense one way or another without speculation (staging or part of the murder).

So whatever you believe, and to your excellent points, it's critical that we not lose sight of how much we are forced to speculate...even the experts, who also disagree! Your post made me think more about these ligatures and from a different perspective, so thank you!

 

[MURDERER_SERVANT]

There may be multiple layers of staging by the same person due to switching of the plan.

It occurs to me that the first plan could be to hide JB in the best place until LE finished his job in the house and left the house for looking for the intruders outside . So before 911 call JB was redressed and wrapped to be taken out..

(A few posts above it was asked if the intent for digital penetration was for the crime look like something sadistic then why masking this with redressing with the long Johns) . Redressing so as to take her outside , could be the reason for that..

Maybe J realized then that their foolish plan and acting was not convincing, or the K9 dogs would be brought and findJB ,he
switched to Plan B and thought it would be better for him to find JBR himself..

The second plan contradicted the RN , and redressing of her but it was too late and there was no other chance.
and the LE wouldn't leave the house. JMO

 

[reintarnation]

There may be multiple layers of staging by the same person due to switching of the plan.

It occurs to me that the first plan could be to hide JB in the best place until LE finished his job in the house and left the house for looking for the intruders outside . So before 911 call JB was redressed and wrapped to be taken out..

(A few posts above it was asked if the intent for digital penetration was for the crime look like something sadistic then why masking this with redressing with the long Johns) . Redressing so as to take her outside , could be the reason for that..

Maybe J realized then that their foolish plan and acting was not convincing, or the K9 dogs would be brought and findJB ,he
switched to Plan B and thought it would be better for him to find JBR himself..

The second plan contradicted the RN , and redressing of her but it was too late and there was no other chance.
and the LE wouldn't leave the house. JMO

I agree that logically, IMO, JR finding the body was Plan B.

However, I am a proponent of the staging, and to that end I don't see the point in staging a crime scene if she wasn't meant to be discovered there. I see it as LE never doing a thorough search of the home and finding JBR as planned, so eventually JR discovers her so they could move on. The purpose of the RN, I think, was essential to point outside the home (no other piece of evidence did). IMO, the fact that the RN note repeatedly mentions and emphasizes JBR's death (beheading, seeing 1997, she dies x 4, 99% chance of her dying, her burial, it wouldn't be difficult, etc.) was intentional to make her death and discovery in the home seem less bizarre. But it is bizarre to the point of being unprecedented, and the writer thought they were far more clever than they really were. And it's interesting PR always claimed that she didn't read the RN threats prior to calling 911, providing cause for JBR's murder per the RN instructions.

Then again, as ozazure pointed out, it's possible not everything was staged. In that case, it's also possible that JR took the opportunity to do some 'lite' staging and clean up of the evidence when he sneaked away from LE and others. Perhaps they realized that trying to remove her body was too risky ot ran out of time. I am less inclined to believe this version, but it does explain the RN more neatly. It confuses me why they would call 911 prior to removing her body if that was Plan A. Plus, I would assume that LE would conduct a thorough search of the home and premises shortly after they arrived, which wouldn't have given JR time to touch up the scene.

 

[singularity]

Given the way her body was found, does that mean that her wrists were tied above her head and maybe she was hung? Again, to what end, and what other evidence supports that?

Many years ago, John Walsh made a statement about Jonbenet being found hanging and was cut down that caused shockwaves on the JBR sites at the time. Many said he got his facts wrong, others thought he let slip info that wasn't supposed to get out in the open.

To my knowledge, this has never been mentioned since.

 

[singularity]

light switch:

So basically the light switch is in the exact spot you'd expect to find a light switch when opening that door.

Interesting.

Thanks for posting that video. I'm gonna watch the whole thing tonight.